Trump is targeting up to 8 million people for deportation

a reply to: ketsuko

Thanks for the reply ketsuko.
I fully understand the explanation you have given there: it's a form of political capital, garnering good will etc.

I agree with the notion you describe, of helping as much as you can but that there are limits also. I feel you and i probably share similar views on the subject.

However, and i mean this with all respect, i'm really interested in hearing from the folks who do not share the same view as me on this subject.
I understand what the politicians gain from it (votes essentially) but what i don't understand, and haven't yet heard, are the reasons why regular citizens might be in favour of these kinds of policies. I genuinely cannot think of a reasonable argument for it.

I guess someone might come in and say "because we should help people less fortunate" but that doesn't answer the specific questions i asked.
Also, by American standards, most of the rest of the world are less fortunate so, that goes back to the question of why not just have open borders if that's what you believe, and if not open borders, how do you decide which people don't qualify for help? (though that then becomes a separate topic i feel).

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: Indrasweb

My friend, it's really simple the right wingers on ATS never bother to mention it. The vast majority of illegal immigrants come over legally on visas and then stay in America after their visas expire. This is why many people want to just turn them into US citizen because those immigrants have started jobs and a life.

The United States is the land of opportunity, we are a beautiful country with lots to enjoy. This is why immigrants have been coming to the United States of America for 200 years. Our President think's the country is riddled with carnage. He said that during his inauguration speech which the following day he spent a lot of time arguing with the media on the crowd size.

US courts blocked Trump again in a late night ruling:

The US federal appeals court has rejected the Trump administration's request to reinstate a travel ban blocked by a federal judge on Friday.

BBC News

Ahh, ok, so, if it is true that many come over legally initially but then essentially become illegal due to visa expiry, why are they not just renewing visas or getting full citizenship? Is there no process for this? If not then it seems to me that there ought to be, and if there is then why are they not doing it (essentially choosing to become illegal, which makes no sense to me).

Thank you for the reply game over man, that does address some of the reasoning behind the calls for some people to stay, and i can understand the feeling that, once someone has arrived, has got a job and a home and is a taxpaying, decent member of society, they have earned at least some good grace from their host country and it would seem fair that they could apply to remain there.
What of the others that do not fall into the category you describe? Is there an appetite from all sides of the argument to return those individuals then, or are there still others who think that those who have not arrived in the manner you describe should also be allowed to stay?

ETA: Sorry for the double post. I had written and replied to the previous post by ketsuko before i saw the reply to me from gameoverman.

a reply to: Indrasweb

Greed. Simply put.

The American Left does want to allow unbridled immigration into the United States and they do so on two fronts. Illegals being given amnesty and security (lowering wages for the unskilled trades) and the Visa Program (lowering wages for the skilled trades).

The American Left will fund and support the "Fight for 15" movement in America which is a movement to increase the minimum wage across the country. This one act alone will assist in creating more "off the book" jobs for illegal workers as well as creating a larger pool of unemployed American citizens.

The American Left will push the propaganda that "illegals only take jobs Americans won't do" while either ignoring the tens of thousands of skilled labor (well paying) jobs lost to illegals, the stagnation and even decline in hourly wages as a result of this imported labor pool, or even the fact that they are fighting to keep people in the fields at near slave wages (based on race).

It is a long game. When there are no jobs left for Americans and wages are near starvation for those illegals that work in America, the American Left can enter the scene as "savior" or "Champion of the Working People". Neglecting the fact that it is their policies that created the apocalyptic scene around them.

Give starving American workers with no jobs at all the opportunity to work for $8 an hour and they will be thankful. Remind the illegals who allowed them to come and stay in America and they will tell their children. The American Left will rake in the votes. Their contributors will benefit from an unlimited slave labor force that is thankful for the opportunity to serve.

Greed. Votes. A desire to fundamentally change America. Hallmarks of the American left.

a reply to: Indrasweb

No both sides both have similarities in illegal immigration. ATS and online right wingers like to spin it a certain way to make everything black or white. Liberals do not want to abolish deportation, the right wingers passively attack others online accusing left wingers of this, "they just want to let all these criminals in." No one ever said that. However, currently, the republican party are not moderate whatsoever they are radical. Spending 15 billion dollars to build a wall is a extremely radical decision and not a calm moderate way to handle immigration whatsoever.

a reply to: Indrasweb

There are processes for this.

There are things in the immigration system that need to be ironed out. Part of the problem, however, is that we have had a political class that has played games with the laws on the books - either enforcing or not enforcing them at whim - that no one is really sure exactly what our system does or should look like if truly enforced.

Witness the current idiocy over the EO. There actually is good legal precedent for it; other presidents have done actions very much like what Trump is attempting, and the relevant statutes do indeed exist and have existed in immigration law for a very, very long time. But everyone acts like this is suddenly new and completely without precedent and has no legal standing to hold it up.

Simply put, the political class plays on our general ignorance of the system, so no one knows for sure what does need to be tweaked.

Understand, if you are a politician, your career depends on everlasting problems, NOT on ever solving any of them.

a reply to: 200Plus

Wow, you paint a grim picture 200Plus. Do you genuinely think that the American political left are that cynical?
I don't have a hard time believing it to be honest as British politicians have proved time and again that they are more interested in their own wellbeing than that of those they represent.
However, the scenario you pose seems like a heck of a dangerous gamble to me. There is potential there for great harm to all, including the elite, should it blow up in their faces.

Again though, i understand the potential political motivations but still wonder about the average American's motivation.

game over man did offer some explanation a few posts back that seemed reasonable on the surface and certainly would explain the desire for allowing some individuals to stay.
And just previous to this reply he has said that, at least for him, there are certain circumstances where deportation is reasonable and perhaps even necessary.
I feel that a middle ground is often the most reasonable course of action and, if we put aside partisan politics, most people would agree. A solution whereby those individuals who have abided by the rules and have come over legally in the first instance are then offered the opportunity to stay, whilst those who come illegally, offer nothing and/or bring with them more problems (criminals for example) are returned, seems like a reasonable position to take to me.
If you are correct in your assessment however, then there is a much bigger problem underlying this and debating immigration is to focus our energy on the wrong thing. Surely addressing the nefarious motives of the political class is paramount and immigration policy is just a symptom of a wider, more pressing problem?

In regards The Wall: It struck me as something more symbolic than practically effective. Unless it is a VERY high, VERY deep wall with EXTREMELY strict security, it is likely to offer little in the way of actually preventing people entering the country illegally.
I agree that it sends a very strong message, though it is an expensive endeavour just to send a message. Perhaps though it will be effective, i guess only time will tell.

I still feel that there are serious issues with immigration that are not being adequately addressed. It seems to me, as with most debates on serious issues, we cannot get past the initial phase of deciding what we're actually debating ABOUT. Without that first step, there can never be a resolution, the discussion inevitably deteriorates into an argument over minor quibbles or technicalities, or what words we're ok with using etc.
A prime example would be the Islamic terrorism issue. It always rapidly deteriorates into a "not all Muslims are bad!" Vs "Islam is the greatest evil". Whilst we're arguing about that there'll never be a discussion about what's to be done about the very real issue of people being blown up, beheaded, run down in the street etc.
If we could just say "no not all Muslims are evil but Islam does have a serious problem at it's heart (and no one is racist for acknowledging that)", which i believe is a reasonable statement, then we can move on from the "he said-she said" arguments and get down to talking about the why's, wherefores and the what are we ALL going to do about it.

Sorry to digress a bit there but i feel there's often a lack of joined up thinking and moderate discussion these days, a trend which is causing many more problems than it is resolving.

ETA: Ketsuko: Again a very good point. It seems that there is very real confusion that has arisen from successive governments playing "fast and loose" with the law and with the "facts". I for one, as an outsider, am completely baffled by the notion of the EO being "unconstitutional", when the EO is about non-Americans, who, to my understanding, are not protected by the US constitution (if they are then i guess i can nip out and by me a few guns?).

You're also correct of course in your observation that politicians of all colours, by and large, trade off of ongoing issues and not off resolving issues

My IMMIGRANT wife would be very happy.

a reply to: Indrasweb

Yes, it's very easy for people to reduce this to an issue of Islamophobia because it allows then to dismiss the real issues and arguments raised by their opponents.

What I truly want is for Americans to be safe within our borders and that includes quite a few Muslims who are already here. After all, plenty of them are citizens just like I am, and I am fine with that. Don't they deserve to have a secure border and to not have to worry about their crazy coreligionists giving them a bad name?

It saddens me that things like this must happen and the fault of it lies solely with the former corrupt Obama administration, who created these situations to destabilize America. Obama's track record of agendas show this and it can not be disputed. To do so is like an Ostrich who put's it's own head in a hole and then believes the approaching jackals cannot see it thus believing it is safe and free from danger.

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: xuenchen

Any well-balanced person who looks at this webpage Memorial to victims of Illegal Aliens, will 100% agree that deportations are sorely needed.

Memorial to the Victims: www.ojjpac.org...

Are you willing to admit in public that a child born on US soil should be deported with it's parents who are here illegally?

Do you think that it's ok for the U.S. to keep a child from its parents because it was born in the U.S.?
You really think parents being deported will want to leave the kid behind?

originally posted by: glen200376

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: xuenchen

Any well-balanced person who looks at this webpage Memorial to victims of Illegal Aliens, will 100% agree that deportations are sorely needed.

Memorial to the Victims: www.ojjpac.org...

Are you willing to admit in public that a child born on US soil should be deported with it's parents who are here illegally?

Do you think that it's ok for the U.S. to keep a child from its parents because it was born in the U.S.?
You really think parents being deported will want to leave the kid behind?

Do you know if a child born to illegal aliens in the USA has dual citizenship? Specifically, does Mexico grant that child citizenship as well?

originally posted by: glen200376

originally posted by: BubbaJoe

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: xuenchen

Any well-balanced person who looks at this webpage Memorial to victims of Illegal Aliens, will 100% agree that deportations are sorely needed.

Memorial to the Victims: www.ojjpac.org...

Are you willing to admit in public that a child born on US soil should be deported with it's parents who are here illegally?

Do you think that it's ok for the U.S. to keep a child from its parents because it was born in the U.S.?
You really think parents being deported will want to leave the kid behind?

Social Services takes kids away from criminals all the time.

Well, my Mexican neighbor wants this to happen. He came here legally and jumped through the hoops, worked his tail off and started a business while waiting to become a citizen. He wants all the illegals sent back to their country of origin and I can't find fault with his view. He wants his wife and children (all citizens) to be safe from the drug cartels he left behind in corrupt Mexico. He won't harbor illegals or employ them. He's really frustrated and ticked off because ICE doesn't respond when he reports them. He's hoping Trump will change that.