U.S. Planes Testing Iranian Defenses By Flying Into Their Airspace?

Amid the rumors that American forces have been conducting special ops reconaissance in Iran, now comes this:

www.aljazeera.com...

An intelligence source in Washington has revealed that the U.S. has upped the pressure on Iran by sending military planes into the country's airspace in order to test Iranian defences and spot any potential targets.

The over-flights by the U.S. have been reported in the Iranian press. This follows on the recent declarations by the Iranian's Air Force Brigadier General Karim Qavami that he'd ordered his anti-aircraft batteries to shoot down any intruders. However, there have been no reports of any Iranian missiles being launched.

According to the Washington intelligence source, "The idea is to get the Iranian to turn on their radar, (in order) to get an assessment of their air defences." He further added that the flights were part of the Pentagon's contingency planning for possible attacks on sites which they believe are linked to Iran's suspected nuclear weapons programme.

Turn on their radar? I thought that would be something that would always be on? If it weren't on, then how would they know of an intruder? Or are they talking specifically about SAM site radars?

Interesting, but how could the US support another war right now? Seems like the wrong time to be playing cat and mouse, although I am all for a war with Iran, as long as tangible proof is presented that they are developing nuclear weapons.

Maybe with Afganistan and Iraq only taking up ground troops, and a fraction of their Air force, they may have sufficient Air and Sea support to bambard Iran in to submission with only limited ground troop movement

I wonder what International opinion would be if the US provide proof of Iran developing nuclear weapons? Would it be a repeat of the Iraqi invasion?

Yes TrueAmercan, I believe they are talking about their air defences not general radar. If the air defence radar locks on to a target, the aircraft will know, therefore showing them the location of the defence missles.

Originally posted by NoobCommando
Interesting, but how could the US support another war right now? Seems like the wrong time to be playing cat and mouse, although I am all for a war with Iran, as long as tangible proof is presented that they are developing nuclear weapons.

Thats where the Brits come in

Just gotta wait till Mr Blair comes on BBC news telling us that Iran insulted his mother and thats why we're going to war with them,

if he's a proper brit, he'll just go over there and stick the head on the ayatollah.
end of that story.
this whole scenario depends on iran summing up how much they want nukes, versus how badly they dont want to be bombed.
there isnt a choice on our side about having to stop the nuke program.
i guess the iranian army is conscripts?
and we know that its a lot smaller than iraq's.
and we would have complete air control.
i can't really see much of a problem in having a scuffle with iran.

info on iran:
www.cia.gov...

cruzion, was that first sentence headed towards me?

Although the Iranian army maybe made up of mainly conscripts, you have to look at the geographic location and their allies as well. It is very mountainous, which may pose a problem when it comes to supplying our troops on the front lines. No doubt terrorists will join the Iranian side and cause havock to our supplies. They'll have more than just conscripts fighting for them.

Another thing to remember is that China have just signed an oil contract with Iran, so they'll want to protect their invest ie. provide weapons, specialists, etc. Also, Russia is an ally and doesn't like the idea of the US being in control of the Middle East, etc. Expect these two countries to provide high tech. defences to Iran.

I don't think Iran will be such a push over. Best to bombard them in to submission. If that doesn't work, and they are persistent in developing nuclear weapons, a full out invasion will be the only other alternative.

Just my small 2 cents.

I'm not surprised, I think this is standard military operations, I believe it's called "Pinging the Radar" (though I'm willing to be wrong. By flying at certain alittudes, trajectories, and speeds we're able to find out the scope and power of their defensive radar. I would see it as woefully incompetant if we didn't do this especially considering the nuke threats made by them and the proximaty to certain areas in the Middle East i.e. Iraq.

Personally, do I think this could be like loading your gun in front of your enemy? That's a deffinite maybe...

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Personally, do I think this could be like loading your gun in front of your enemy? That's a deffinite maybe...

A definate maybe? If Homeland security is monitoring ATS they're going to ask you to be their new press secretary.

In isolation I wouldn't see it as a big deal that America is sizing up Iran. I'm sure we've done this to a lot of nations that don't even know it. You have to be ready to defend yourself right?

The catch is that America has pretty much shown that it wants decisive and overwhelmingly positive resolutions to situations in very short order, which almost inevitably leads to war. This means that in the context of what we've seen America do recently, there is a decent chance that at least limited strikes will be made on a nation which America sees fit to be sizing up.

This story appears to be substantiated by several stories:

globalsecurity.org, citing UPI as a source:
www.globalsecurity.org...
www.globalsecurity.org...

planenews.com...

www.worldnetdaily.com...

www.freerepublic.com...

And yet still, Washington denies any knowledge of it. Oh, yeah, I forgot, the US is in the public disinfo biz now more than ever.

Turn on their radar? I thought that would be something that would always be on? If it weren't on, then how would they know of an intruder? Or are they talking specifically about SAM site radars?

Actually they are testing few things. First they want to find out if Iranian radars can detect them and if US planes can jam these radars. Second, as most of you guessed, they are trying to locate the radar stations and SAMs , and next they are trying to find out the respond time. It mean how long it’s going to take Iran to send its airplanes to confront them and how many and what kind of planes.

They are provoking Iran to react. If Iran shoots down their planes, it will give them an incentive for war and the sheep back home are going to be caling for revenge. Same old same old.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They are provoking Iran to react. If Iran shoots down their planes, it will give them an incentive for war and the sheep back home are going to be caling for revenge. Same old same old.

Not if American’s planes get shutdown inside of Iran.

Originally posted by persian

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
They are provoking Iran to react. If Iran shoots down their planes, it will give them an incentive for war and the sheep back home are going to be caling for revenge. Same old same old.

Not if American’s planes get shutdown inside of Iran.

Yes that is what a reasonable and rational minded person would say. However, sheep, are neither reasonable or rational minded. My respect for the American peoples intelligence took a nose-dive a long time ago.

I was talking to a friend of mine about this about 3 months ago, thats when the iranian press first started talking about us jets playing in irans airspace.


we both agreed that no doubt in the white house they have some strange idea about iran, that once they hit the targets,they believe irans going to surrender or throw rose petals at them falling jdams

Thats when everything will go pear shaped.

One has to look at how the iranians are gonna react, Does anyone really believe that there going to sit there and take it, put your self in there mind set, wheres saddam, he be gone deposed of power, the mullahs are going to believe that the US is not just going to use air strikes, there going to believe its the start of there demise.

When you look at that way. you have to understand irans going to hit back with everything it has.(Im sure you have all read the us navys war games report about a war with iran. the one where they lost there entire fleet. then decided to refloat the ships in the game, as they decided it wasnt fair test)

and for those who think irans going be a push over think again, go find out what they really have, some of tanks(no i not talking about t-seris either, are in the same class as the first abrams , something to think about, cant use any cobras against them either, friendly fire point of view, iran has ah-1 cobra toos,,, same as chinook ch-47.... imagine a ch-47 landing a us airbase,,, only to discover its really a iranian one painted up.. full of suicide bombers...nice tactic for playing havoc with a over crowded airfield)

Notice how fast the DOD came out and denied seymoor hearsh reports then denied these reports about the cat and mouse ... if i was betting man.. i would say someone in the pentagon # there pants just incase the mullahs decide that its time to pre emptive strike the US forces in the area. You really believe forces are kept at that level of readiness where they can instantly react, afraid not.



my outline for the repercussions.

1) Us navys going to get pounded, along with alot of oil tankers( most anti ship missiles are on mobile patforms please remember we never hit a single scud launcher in gulf war 1) and theres no defense to certain anti ship missiles,

2) iranian army is going to march straight into iraq along with a mass shia uprising

3) due to lack of bases( you really think, turkey,saudi,qatar going to let the usaf use its bases after iraq, think again) the only way to stop the mass iranian armoured advance is airpower(unless we want huge fight, but dont like to fight fair) with no close bases except iraq, which do doubt will be dodging sams on take off, b-52 would have come all the way from the states( no help from the brits,we made that clear before iraq war started, so no diego gracia, or raf fairford, meaning all flights would have come from stateside or guam)

4) most likey iran will lob all it can all america bases in the area, causing mass panic(im not saying your pussys, but missiles falling in the area, has this habbit of making rambo duck and cover on his first time)

5) either straight away or during the course of the war.. first fiew days perhaps it will throw some missiles straight at the isreali nuclear weapons reactor. no more isreal... im sure knowing isrealis as being so predictable.. they will in turn send there nukes to iran. not just small ones either most likey in the megaton range.

6) you may also wish to consider that the shias world wide are crazies. most likey you going to have very ordinary cizitens of many countries doing all sorts of crazy #, from suicide bombs, to shooting up some mall, to helping mickey mouse going into orbit.. when the drive a truck bomb into disney.

For everyone saying nuke um, lets go get iran... Have you ever stopped to think to maybe ask the troops want they want to do? if your that eager go, i suggest to go enlist .... otherwise have some consideration for the soldiers, they`re all somebodys son.

Originally posted by yeehaa
6) you may also wish to consider that the shias world wide are crazies.

That's a bit of a xenophobic statement isn't it?

Well no doubt we can discuss what would happen in the event of a war or preemptive strikes on Iran, but really, I was trying to bring out more the point that it is difficult anymore to know who to believe. The Iranians publish reports of the airplanes in their skies, and washington denies it.

Ok, so if I believe washington, then does that mean then that Iran is planting false stories in their press, so as to establish a motive to attack us or make us look bad?

Or, if I believe these news report links, then is it the other way around? We really ARE flying planes into their airspace, trying to provoke them, get them to shoot at us, and then we got a real reason to go after them? I suppose if this one is true, at least the administration is trying to get a physical action against us before we go in and bomb. "Those pesky liberals, all they do is whine that there were no WMD's in Iraq. Well, this time if Iran fires at us first, we can bomb them with a reason."

I mean what gives here? As an American, anymore it just feels like we are being led down another Weapons of Mass Deception path, all over again. And what's worse, is there isn't a damn thing I can do about it. Same old Same old. Yup.

I suppose if Iran flew a few fighters over our airspace to assess our radar defenses... Go figure.

At some point, the bully on the block always gets beaten down. Always. Whether it takes one big tough guy, or two or three guys. The greatest empires have always fallen. Always. And I can see why. You keep on believing that Russia and China are just laughing watching us take out the trash. Uh huh.

And now this just breaking on Drudgereport...

U.S. OFFICIAL: ISRAEL MIGHT ATTACK IRAN'S NUKE SITES...

No more information yet.

Yeah, Supafly, Rumsfeld said that days ago already. Or is this some other official? Might this, might that. So much for the UN eh? And what the heck, screw the IAEA and EU while they're at it? Where are the sanctions? And all the fights at the UN Security Council?

I can just hear that red phone conversation between Bush and Sharon: "You know there, Sharony, we got pretty good evidence that yer mullahs down there got em some nukes. We already did the flyovers for ya, and had our guys send you the targeting info. Surely you don't want Tel Aviv lit up by the mullahs, do ya? I mean, Sharony, this is real CIA stuff here. Dependable as can be. You better do something."

imperial iranian air force

...includes fighter squadrones composed of:

80 F-14 tomcat
crews, all trained in united states air force

The first and only country to receive F-14 Tomcat was, The Nirouyeh Havaiyeh Shahanshahiye Iran, or Imperial Iranian Air Force.
Soviet MiG-25 Foxbat had regularly been flying unrestricted over Iranian territory, and IIAF had no mean of intercepting these high-speed intruders. Thus, the search for a new fighter/interceptor begun. Iranian pilots were virtually flown and tested every fighter available at the time including MiG's (some done secretly in other countries). The final report which indicated pro's and con's of each fighter suggested the F-14 Tomcat and F-15 Eagle as the best fighters. In August of 1973, the IIAF selected the F-14 Tomcat ( From 1970 Iraq was in contact with French government to equip their Air Force with Mirage F-1, this was another factor for IIAF to choose F-14 and start planning for purchase, operation and training for F-14). The initial order signed in January of 1974 covered 30 Tomcats, but in June 50 more were added to the contract.At the same time, the Iranian government-owned Bank-e-Melli stepped in, and agreed to loan Grumman $75 million to partially make up for a US government loan of $200 million to Grumman, which had just been cancelled. This loan save the F-14 program and enabled Grumman to secure a further loan of $125 million from a consortium of American banks, ensuring at least for the moment that the F-14 program would continue. Thanks to Bank-e-Melli.

The Iranian Tomcats were virtually identical to the US Navy version, with only a few classified avionics items being omitted. The base site for Iranian Tomcat operations was at Isfahan’s (Khatami Air Force Base) and 1 Squadron at Shiraz Tactical Fighter Base. Imperial Iranian Air Force aircrews began to arrive in the USA for training in May of 1974,The crew were mainly veteran F-4 pilots.
The first 4 pilots who came to "Miramar Naval Base" in California for F-14 training were:
General Abdolhosain Minousepehr (Commander of Khatami AFB).
Major Mojtaba Zangeneh
Major Mohammad Farahawar
Capt. Kazem Heidarzadeh
Shortly after, the second group went to "Oceana Naval Base" in Virginia. They were:
Capt. Jamshid Afshar.
Capt. Hosein Taghdis.
Capt. Hassan Afghantoloee.
Capt. Jalil Moslemi.
Capt. Abolfazl Hooshyar.
Capt. Reza Attaee.
Capt. Bahram Ghaneii.
Capt. Mohammad Pyrasteh.
Capt. Abbas Amiraslani.
Capt. Shahram Roostami.
Capt. Javad Shookraii.
After completion of F-14 training in USA they became F-14 Instructor pilots. After returning to Isfahan they started training the rest of the pilots with the cooperation of 4 American F-14 Instructors which was part of contract.
Major Farahawar flew one of the F-14 from USA to Iran.
Major Zangeneh was the Iranian pilot who tested the "Phoenix" missile in USA.

300 F-16A falcon

IIAF purchases 160 F-16A on October 27th 1976 with follow up order of additional 140, A total of 300 aircraft. Parts and maintenance equipment has arrived in Iran as early as 1978 and ground personnel had been given training, (Ground support equipment was later sold to Pakistan). However, new Government cancelled the order in 1979 before the schedule arrival of the first two F-16, later this cancellation effected the unit cost of each aircraft to a much higher price tag. But General Dynamics found a new buyer for Iranian

that is the backbone of iranian air defence.
all american airplanes...

Originally posted by yeehaa
(Im sure you have all read the us navys war games report about a war with iran. the one where they lost there entire fleet. then decided to refloat the ships in the game, as they decided it wasnt fair test)

Actually that game was based on a war with Iraq. A retired Marine general named Paul Van Ripper made some subtle and clever preparations and the US Navy got their arse handed to them. The US Navy didn't just re-float the ships, they made Van Ripper's forces freeze while US troops landed. After that Van Ripper proceeded to put up a good fight so the Pentagon ordered officers under Van Ripper to disobey his orders. Finally Van Ripper quit in disgust.
Iran probably isn't prepared to give it to us quite that bad on a moments notice, but they have the missile forces to sink US ships in the Persian Gulf, and if Iran initiates the ground war before America is ready they are unlikely to win but they will be able to humiliate us in a very public way by inflicting significant casualities.

and for those who think irans going be a push over think again, go find out what they really have, some of tanks(no i not talking about t-seris either, are in the same class as the first abrams , something to think about, cant use any cobras against them either, friendly fire point of view, iran has ah-1 cobra toos,,, same as chinook ch-47.... imagine a ch-47 landing a us airbase,,, only to discover its really a iranian one painted up.. full of suicide bombers...nice tactic for playing havoc with a over crowded airfield)

Iran is capable of making a decent stand but one can hardly argue that firepower is on their side. Numbers, geography, and the ability to sieze the initiative before America is ready are on their side.
Iran has a hand full of modern weapons, but they also have T-55s and domestic variants on the T-series. Trojan horse ops don't work because of something called an IFF transponder which identifies aircraft as being friendly so that our air defenses won't light them up.

The best case scenario for an Iranian attack without direct help from other nations basically adds up to a war lasting 6-8 months, causing between 10 and 50 thousand US casualties, the loss of one aircraft carrier and perhaps other surface ships, and a massive destabilization of Iraq. At the end of that war Iran is under US control though.
If Iran thinks they can have the bomb within a year they need to keep stalling for time and behaving themselves. The minute Iran tests a nuclear weapon they become safe from America.
Personally I would like to see Iran try that, because if they manage to prevent this war by diplomatic means it could change the way America thinks about dealing with the middle east and it may limit future instances of "comply or die" ultimatums from America.

Notice how fast the DOD came out and denied seymoor hearsh reports then denied these reports about the cat and mouse ... if i was betting man.. i would say someone in the pentagon # there pants just incase the mullahs decide that its time to pre emptive strike the US forces in the area. You really believe forces are kept at that level of readiness where they can instantly react, afraid not.

We definately don't want Iran to jump the gun and start the war before we're ready. Military officers have been writing about such dangers ever since Desert Storm because we were too slow and too vulnerable in the buildup. Unfortunately I really don't think that Rumsfeld and company are smart enough to really be afraid of that. I'm more inclined to believe they just lied out of habit.



As for your outline of the reprecussions.
1. I mostly agree.
2. The Iranian army is going to march straight into Iraq up to maybe the Tigris river and get the living snot kicked out of it during a bloody seige of Baghdad, but they will inflict casualties.
3. British forces will be caught up in this war in Iraq, which America did not technically start. Britain will not refuse us use of bases and will probably send forces of its own.
Turkish membership in NATO would be at stake if they didn't cooperate plus this situation offers a chance to exert influence over Northern Iraq, so they may be inclined to move forces to Mosul and strengthen our Northern flank.
The Saudis and the Iranians are not on the same team as far as I know. Realpolitik dictates that they should be afraid of Iranian aggression and will probably allow us to move forces through their territory while reserving their military for defense of their own borders. Same for Qatar and most everyone else in the neighborhood.
4. Mass panic isn't all it's cracked up to be. They can hit a few strategic targets to weaken our position, but because not all of their missiles are incredibly accurate and because saturation attacks may be necessary to overwhelm PAC3 systems the typical American unit will not see an overwhelming amount of missile attack.
5. No more Israel? I think you're being a little optimistic there. More like an extremely pissed off and midly radio-active Israel, and even that is only if Israeli theater missile defenses are insufficient to protect the reactor. I would think they would consider that a key national security objective. Not only will there still be an Israel, but IF it doesn't nuke Iran (which would end Iran's war effort immediately) they will be sending tanks to back up America's light forces in Iraq.
6. I didn't realize you were John Ashcroft. How do you do sir? We've invaded two muslim countries already and none of that crap happened. Frankly if push comes to shove, they can shoot up disneyland all they want. All it's going to do is inspire US troops to take off the gloves and repay an eye for an eye.

For everyone saying nuke um, lets go get iran... Have you ever stopped to think to maybe ask the troops want they want to do? if your that eager go, i suggest to go enlist .... otherwise have some consideration for the soldiers, they`re all somebodys son.

This part I agree with whole heartedly. As a Marine I was actually pretty tuned up to go at it with some of these arseholes over there shouting death to America, but it still pissed me off royally when these ignorant fatazz walmart shopping walking examples of everything wrong with America who think a "support our troops" bumper sticker is really a way of supporting the troops start gaffing off at the mouth about who they think we should declare war on. For precisely that reason I actually went through a phase (which I think many servicemen go through actually) of thinking that armed service ought to be a requirement for voting rights.