Belief in free will is equivalent to believing in Santa Claus

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Read my posts more carefully. I do say we have free will in the sense that we can do whatever we think is the best course of action to take. However in a sense we do have to wait to see what decision we're going to make. We have to wait for the photons to touch the eyes, for the electrical signals to reach the brain, and then make a decision. These processes all happen very fast that's why we don't really 'wait' that long to see what decision we're going to make.

a reply to: Andy1144


A question for you then is where exactly is the Unconscious and Conscious in the brain?

Your subconscious mind is like a huge memory bank. Its capacity is virtually unlimited. It permanently stores everything that ever happens to you.

By the time you reach the age of 21, you’ve already permanently stored more than one hundred times the contents of the entireEncyclopedia Britannica.

Under hypnosis, older people can often remember, with perfect clarity, events from fifty years before. Your unconscious memory is virtually perfect. It is your conscious recall that is suspect.

The function of your subconscious mind is tostore and retrieve data. Its job is to ensure that you respond exactly the way you are programmed. Your subconscious mind makes everything you say and do fit a pattern consistent with your self-concept, your “master program.”

Your subconscious mind is subjective. It does not think or reason independently; it merely obeys the commands it receives from your conscious mind. Just as your conscious mind can be thought of as the gardener, planting seeds, your subconscious mind can be thought of as the garden, or fertile soil, in which the seeds germinate and grow.

Your conscious mind commands and your subconscious mind obeys.

Your subconscious mind is an unquestioning servant that works day and night to make your behavior fits a pattern consistent with your emotionalized thoughts, hopes, and desires. Your subconscious mind grows either flowers or weeds in the garden of your life, whichever you plant by the mental equivalents you create.

Your subconscious mind has what is called a homeostatic impulse. It keeps your body temperature at 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit, just as it keeps you breathing regularly and keeps your heart beating at a certain rate. Through your autonomic nervous system, it maintains a balance among the hundreds of chemicals in your billions of cells so that your entire physical machine functions in complete harmony most of the time.

Your subconscious mind also practices homeostasis in your mental realm, by keeping you thinking and acting in a manner consistent with what you have done and said in the past.

All your habits of thinking and acting are stored in your subconscious mind. It has memorized all your comfort zones and it works to keep you in them.

Your subconscious mind causes you to feel emotionally and physically uncomfortable whenever you attempt to do anything new or different, or to change any of your established patterns of behavior.

You can feel your subconscious pulling you back toward your comfort zone each time you try something new. Even thinking about doing something different from what you’re accustomed to will make you feel tense and uneasy.

Superior men and women are always stretching themselves, pushing themselves out of their comfort zones. They are very aware how quickly the comfort zone, in any area, becomes a rut. They know that complacency is the great enemy of creativity and future possibilities.

For you to grow, to get out of your comfort zone, you have to be willing to feel awkward and uncomfortable doing new things the first few times. If it’s worth doing well, it’s worth doing poorly until you get a feel for it, until you develop a new comfort zone at a new, higher level of competence.

Source: www.briantracy.com...

www.quora.com...#

You seem to be talking about habits and that has been related to a basil ganglia. But with all due respect that is about information storage about consistencies in life. Its like the implication of a gene that causes addiction and then being denied employment as a result of a DNA test results show a predisposition towards an Addictive Personality Disorder.

The referent Unconscious and Conscious mind is really applicable as guideline, not some concrete "line in the sand", of how Consciousness operates.

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: jonnywhite

Whether our decisions are already determined before the big bang or not, there would still be no room for absolute free will. Because the law of the universe is cause and effect. Nothing can't cause something. The same way you can't be conscious of being unconscious. They are absolute facts.

Except if we're almost always going to make a decision a certain way and it's predetermined by the state of our mind and immediate environment, it's far from a free choice, especially if it's contrasted by others who make a different decision consistently in a equivalent environment. Whether or not it's unconscious or conscious is beside the point. Neither would change the fact it's largely predetermined. This has always been a big topic of discussion in metaphysical libertarianism.

The length to which our universe is deterministic is limited. Broadly speaking, it's indeterministic. However, it's only indeterministic to the extent there's not one single course the future can take. It does not mean we can't assign probabilities to future events. From our point of view, many decisions can be made in a deterministic fashion. For example, we know falling from a ledge hundreds of feet will probably kill us, so we avoid it. And because many events occur consistently one after the other, we can predict in a deterministic way the results of actions. The more complex it's and the more time involved, the more indeterminate it will be.

I think what you're saying is all of our decisions are unconscious, so we don't have actual free will, even if we think we do. I think I agree, mostly. However, what exactly is our unconscious mind? Is it not making decisions? Ok, so our conscious mind isn't making decisions, but if our unconscious mind is then the argument isn't whether our mind can make decisions on its own, but what part can. And if we conclude the unconscious is making decisions on its own then, regardless of the conscious mind, how deterministic our local universe is plays a large role in how free our mind is to make choices independently. Because if cause and effect rule above all else, our decisions represent all prior actions in the history of the universe more than they represent ourselves.

Even if we had free will in some amount, given a appropriate definition, we still frequently have little choice in many affairs. The less choice we have, the less free we're. If I'm born into a country experiencing war, I can't change that. If someone shoots me when I'm not looking, I can't change that either. I can only change how I respond, and the number of options I have changes along with the circumstances. For example, If I happened to be trapped in one of hte World Trade Center towers during 9/11 as they collapsed, my options would have been so few I could only maybe screamed I loved my family.

a reply to: Andy1144

But Andy, you say

I can clearly see in my experience, without a shadow of doubt, that there is no free will. So I have both a logical and experiential validation. That's why I am so confident of calling it absolute

You clearly state your point based upon your experience, to that I agree. But just how can you extrapolate absolute existential realities beyond a shadow of a doubt, based upon your own experiences alone. How can any of us?

You say that if you had absolute free will, you would be able to find your self having exercised it. Now that I can understand and add to rather than taking up a position that might seem to be nothing more than contrariness.

I agree that in your life you have no conscious recognition of having exercised free will. You may not have, nor is it clear whether or not you would recognize if you had. Likewise as I look at my life I can find little indication that I, myself, have exercised free will but I admit that this does not discount the possibility that I have it.

I do not believe in absolute free will. I think that as you state, at least much. of what we consider to be examples of free choice are not really that but rather cause and effect relationships going on in our unconscious minds that then bring about what we think of as choice but in deeper reality are not. So if all you are getting at is that we do not have absolute free will I agree, but to say that we absolutely do not have free will is impossible to state from such a limited consciousness as ourselves.

To me, the question of free will is not whether I want Coke of Pepsi. It is the question, is or is it not possible for any aspect of reality to act of it's own volition in a manner which is not congruous with the volition of the whole, if indeed the whole has volition in and of itself.

I choose to reply to this, however, it will get posted not when I press reply, but a few seconds after that.

If I use bad language or attack someone, my freewill post will be deleted and thus my freewill taken away, or was it, because I had the freewill to do that in the 1st place.

What about if I went to post this, but my internet was turned off because I failed to pay my ISP bill, but that was because I was laid off from work, is it my freewill or someone elses being imposed on me?

I think money can easily TRUMP freewill in this world, because we value money moreso than we value human life and GOD combined.

a reply to: Kashai

A question for you then is where exactly is the Unconscious and Conscious in the brain?

I don't know. I can say I am conscious of some thoughts and feelings but not everything. Plus, I don't think you can pinpoint consciousness in the brain because we don't really know for sure where it arises from.

Free will isn't about our physical manifestation, our earthly existence or day to day lives in the world. Our ability to perceive options and alternatives and make choices and decisions, our perceived right of self-determination are more a personal choice thing.

Free will is about the spirit, our essence and there is only one decision to be made. Do we choose God or not? The eternal consequences of our metaphysical choice can only be speculated upon and as ever, uncertainty is exploited by those that seek to deflect and subvert.

From there, easily misdirected away from the spiritual to thinking free will is about politics or how we'd like our steaks cooked.

a reply to: jonnywhite

Because if cause and effect rule above all else, our present decisions are mostly the combined sum of all prior events in history. And how mcuh do we control all events in history? Very little.

The type of free will you're talking about is completely different to the one that I'm talking about. I am talking about absolute free will, you are talking about the desire to make certain choices.

originally posted by: Andy1144
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Read my posts more carefully. I do say we have free will in the sense that we can do whatever we think is the best course of action to take. However in a sense we do have to wait to see what decision we're going to make. We have to wait for the photons to touch the eyes, for the electrical signals to reach the brain, and then make a decision. These processes all happen very fast that's why we don't really 'wait' that long to see what decision we're going to make.

I take exception to that. When I allow myself to be an impulsive actor, I appear to decide quickly. But because I use my mind, I may entertain a scenario in-depth without any prodding from the physical universe; and then when the event arises, I act on mental training.

I have no basis to think of a scenario wherein I have three arms and I must enlarge myself to juggle asteroids to save the planet Earth.

So what in my environment ever inspired me to think that I should entertain the notion at all?

If you want a less absurd example (or more, depending on how you perceive), mathematics is used to create fantasy all day. What drives that action?

The mind, when left alone, definitely has full imaginative domain. When the mind is possessed by God, then the imagination is clarified.

For example, a meathead toddler rips up his brother's homework for no reason at all. There is no cause other than the power was there to be used and why not. That's the power of life unhinged.

The power is not the cause, the environment isn't the cause... If the paper wasn't there, then stomping or banging the head into the couch for fun may happen. And if no couch, if no house, if no trees, then certainly the grass.

The point here is that objects do not determine what you do. If you live a life unhinged, it's not the actor or the object, but it's the power within and the will of the mind.

No matter the situation, that toddler's mind is set on destruction - by choice. How this is interpreted in the physical world has no bearing on the reality, but simply is a conduit through which we discern the true intent.

The mind is not run by physics, it defines physics.

If only materialists and physicists realized this...

a reply to: TerryMcGuire

You clearly state your point based upon your experience, to that I agree. But just how can you extrapolate absolute existential realities beyond a shadow of a doubt, based upon your own experiences alone. How can any of us?

As I said in my past post, experience and logic. But this can be known through logic alone without any first hand experience. For example, I know beyond a shadow of doubt that I cannot be conscious of being unconscious. This is an absolute fact yes? It cant ever be possible, ever. By this same logic, I can come to the conclusion about no free will through stating another absolute fact.

So if all you are getting at is that we do not have absolute free will I agree, but to say that we absolutely do not have free will is impossible to state from such a limited consciousness as ourselves.

Again, the argument that we cannot be conscious of being conscious. This is something we can know. Whether we have limited minds or not this we can comprehend.

If I possibly had absolute free will what could it possibly be? Absolutely every decision I make is influenced by something. Nothing cannot influence something. This is absolute logic. You could say how can we know god doesn't exist from our limited minds. That would actually be a more difficult question whether we had free will or not.

So basically there is no will free from cause. It's all cause and effect. Even if it's not, it still is. Absolute truth, the same as the logic about the impossibility of being conscious of unconsciousness. This is beyond a shadow of doubt true however limited our minds may be, we can know this much. This is why I am 100% certain and call it absolute.

a reply to: Andy1144


Ok lets look at a scenario which activates the habits part of our brain by often producing anxiety which, at the time is actually inappropriate but is commonly experienced.


You in a car at a red light on the left lane a two lane road that also has a turning lane. In the lane you are in there are no other cars behind you in the lane to the right of you there are 5 cars and in the turning lane there are 3 cars.

An Ambulance with all lights on a sirens blaring pulls up behind you and for when is perhaps a few moments you experience anxiety as to when to do. This behavior diminishes as you become more experienced but also note thatwhen it comes to learning the ruled of the road. What exact referent exist (DMV) that explains what you should do in such a situation?

Of course the point it that in such a circumstance you run the light or make a right turn and get out of the way. But in relation to habit many react momentarily with indecision due to habits.

Indecision under such a situation can generate metabolic/autonomic responses.

Another example is the reaction to seeing a police car with lights one and sirens right behind you and following you?

a reply to: Tranceopticalinclined

Everyone replying to my post is talking about a different free will. Only the ones with the most discernment will be able to see what Im really saying.

a reply to: Andy1144

No.

You know what free will means. Don't create a clone and say,"Well, you're talking about the wrong one!"

Funny, usually it's attackers that create the strawmen, not the defenders.

a reply to: Kashai

I'm not sure what you're referring to but that doesn't explain anything about where consciousness comes from or where it's located.

originally posted by: TarzanBeta
a reply to: Andy1144

No.

You know what free will means. Don't create a clone and say,"Well, you're talking about the wrong one!"

Funny, usually it's attackers that create the strawmen, not the defenders.

Do you realize you can mean different things by free will right?

I clearly stated there are two definitions of free will and stated what I meant by both of them, I'm not making any "clones". Stop being so dense.

a reply to: Andy1144

Your logic is flawed. Which synaptic pathway our decision is carried upon is irrelevant. The fact that we made a decision is key. Of course it takes some catalyst to require a decision be made in the first place, but that does not imply that we are without free will. It only means we chose to respond to an influence or set of circumstances.

The best argument against free will is the perspective of time and events. We all know we can not change the past. Our perception is that we can act in the present, and have no idea what the future holds. If today is Wednesday then Thursday is future and Tuesday is past. However, this only holds true if our perspective is from today. If we look at these same three days from the perspective of Friday, then Thursday is past - and you can not change the past. Since past, present, and future all exist simultaneously we can not change the past, present, or future. It is fait accompli, a thing already done. The monkey in the wrench, as it were, is that all our actions are unique and expressed as individual response to a given set of circumstances, in other words - free will.

a reply to: Vroomfondel

The monkey in the wrench, as it were, is that all our actions are unique and expressed as individual response to a given set of circumstances, in other words - free will.

We all respond differently because we're wired differently. Again, like all the rest you are talking about relative free will and using it to contradict and disprove my definition of free will when they are two completely different concepts.
What you are saying is completely true but in no way addresses what I meant about free will as I presented it.
I think you ended up disproving free will more then approving it.

a reply to: Andy1144


Free will involves decisions and the reaction to habit in relation to those decisions. Say for example one takes a person diagnosed with Schizophrenia that has been driving for less that a year. As I have expressed they were not taught per say how to react is such situations. So rather than experience a moment of indecision and common anxiety a to how to react. They respond in ways that obstruct that ambulance's path and so endanger the patient therein conceivably.


Its not an enigma the dependence upon experience under such circumstances is different than the person who does not run the light but makes a right turn.

At issue though would be the experience of the driver in relation to metabolic responses.

As far as where consciousness is?

There have been perplexing reports of organ transplant receivers claiming that they seem to have inherited the memory, experiences and emotions of their deceased donors, and which are causing quirky changes in their personality.  We will present a few cases and then discuss a possible explanation in the light of the occult insights of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, Mirra Alfassa.

www.namahjournal.com...

Admittedly the link is sort of fringe but in so far as the relatable fundamentals I feel you will understand.

a reply to: Kashai

Basically you are talking about the second version of free will I stated not the absolute version. That would be a different discussion about free will because they are two different things. So how far does this version of free will extend? I don't know. Personally, the more honest I am with what and why I believe something and the ability to make decisions free from irrational fears. This to me is a mark of freedom to exert will free from cognitive dissonance and useless fears.

There have been perplexing reports of organ transplant receivers claiming that they seem to have inherited the memory, experiences and emotions of their deceased donors, and which are causing quirky changes in their personality. We will present a few cases and then discuss a possible explanation in the light of the occult insights of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, Mirra Alfassa.

I think this is pretty fascinating. I think it gives us a clue at how organs can affect the brain. But still it doesn't take us any bit closer to concluding where consciousness is located. It's truly a perplexing phenomenon.

a reply to: Andy1144


Very good Andy! Your op is good. I agree with most of it.



However, IMO, what ironically gives “free will” a little play is ignorance

Ignorance of the complexities that you mention and some you did not mention

In other words, free will and pre-destination cant really see each other. They cannot meet.

Example

If a man has a strong sexual desire, although tries his best to resist it, and succumbs to fornication, is that predestined?

Yes and no

Yes because the desire is just too strong in him so he wilts under it.

But at the time of the enticement he didn’t see that he had to do it,

In that small space (of his ignorance of the inevitable) free will exists and when he commits the fornication it melts into non existence