Potential H1B reform

Some legislation got introduced in the House today and so far Trump appears to be supportive of it. It's aimed at fixing the H1B situation. The main points are that the minimum salary to bring an H1B in goes up to $130k from $60k and that the per nation cap is removed, effectively allowing as many to come over as companies are willing to pay for.

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this yet. The good is the increase in pay. By Silicon Valley standards 130k basically eliminates new grad and junior positions while still allowing mid level and senior people to come over. At the same time though, outside of the Bay Area where salaries are lower, the 130k cap basically pushes out everyone. This could create a situation where the large companies get their choice of worldwide talent while everyone else has to look only inside the US. This could go in either direction, it might incentivize companies to create sane hiring standards, or it might just leave companies in most of the country unable to get talent. I do agree though that the salary needed to go up, the $60k standard was set in 1989 and by inflation would be worth about $116k today, by purchasing power even more, and in high COL areas, closer to $150k (probably how SF based companies pushed for the $130k number).

On the other hand though, allowing an unlimited number of people to come over is going to increase the supply of mid and senior level tech workers and drive down wages for the large companies which as I said before, thanks to the $130k salary floor is going to make it a lot harder for companies outside of California to attract workers with experience.

Here's some articles on it, something you may not expect is that it was a California congressman who introduced the bill.
economictimes.indiatimes.com... /56887602.cms

thetechportal.com...

I think they need provide some incentive to the companies to provide better training for American workers. I don't have an issue with H1-Bs, but I do think these companies exploit the program to get away with paying less.

a reply to: Edumakated

Training tech workers specifically is hard. No one wants to hire someone that might make a mistake, because a mistake can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's also why the industry pays so well, each worker brings in something like $700,000 in revenue on average.

One side effect of moving more risk to the companies and expecting them to train people is that it means salaries would decline.

I could see some arguments that schooling is inadequate, but at the same time I'm not sure that's the schools fault either. There's really no standardization among tech fields. What would barely get you in the door as in an entry level position in one company could be senior level at another. I see it as a whole industry where no one knows what they want, and they keep asking for ridiculous requirements for candidates, and companies mostly have to expand their talent search globally in order to find positions.

Some are definitely using it to lower payroll costs. I think the proposed wage increase is a good thing, but it should probably be indexed to inflation. I'm just not sure of the other part. Nearly 4x as many people apply for H1B's as get them. If the companies are willing to pay it could end up displacing our own workers just through sheer numbers. India alone has more A students than we have students total. If the companies are willing to pay more, what's to stop them from just taking more good talent and leaving Americans to fend for lower paying jobs? It's a numbers thing, I'm making up some numbers here because I don't have accurate ones in front of me, but if the US puts out 2000 CS grad's a year, we only put out 200 people in the top 10%. India puts out 25,000 a year, so just their top 10% is more than our entire production and that means our graduates don't get jobs.

You can go further here too and look at things like bootcamps, which are popping up all over the place. They're only showing up because Americans are unwilling to go through proper schooling.

It's a complicated issue.

Intriguing aside... I was looking up the actual bill, and was going through stories to try and find such a link. This was posted at the bottom of a CNN writeup:

If you're an immigrant in the tech community and are worried about Trump's proposed immigration policies, please get in touch.

Nothing is certain over this, of course, but it does sound like CNN may be trying to amass complainers for a media assault on this bill.

I'll have more on the bill itself as soon as I actually read it.

Good find OP! S&F for you.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Aazadan
a reply to: Edumakated

Training tech workers specifically is hard. No one wants to hire someone that might make a mistake, because a mistake can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's also why the industry pays so well, each worker brings in something like $700,000 in revenue on average.

One side effect of moving more risk to the companies and expecting them to train people is that it means salaries would decline.

I could see some arguments that schooling is inadequate, but at the same time I'm not sure that's the schools fault either. There's really no standardization among tech fields. What would barely get you in the door as in an entry level position in one company could be senior level at another. I see it as a whole industry where no one knows what they want, and they keep asking for ridiculous requirements for candidates, and companies mostly have to expand their talent search globally in order to find positions.

A lot of H1-Bs are not tech employees. Their knowledge is also by no means specialized. The way the h1-b law is written there is a lot of latitude.

There are way too many examples of companies exploiting the program to just hire cheaper workers.

Tech companies abused the H1-B system for lower wages, which caused many american college students to move away from engineering as a major (due to little jobs available). So American universities downsized their engineering programs ( I have several peers who teach and have explained this to me). Then the tech companies lobby DC that America doesn't produce enough engineers, a problem they themselves caused, and ask for more H1-B visas.

It's been a downward spiral for 30 years. Meanwhile, the salary of tech CEOs has gone from 10x the average engineer, too 100x. Greedy scumbag traitors, all of them.

No text is available yet according to the US House of Representatives website, but the bill is H.R.607 in the 115th Congress (2017-2018), introduced Jan. 24th by Zoe Lofgren (D-CA).

I like the sound of it thus far, but I may change my tune when I read it.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Aazadan

Hi Azadan,

Back during the yourjobisgoingtoindia website days, it was revealed that Ratan Tata is prepared to send 10 million replacement workers to the US, as fast as the airlift and sealift can transport them. Add to that the numbers of additional replacement workers that Infosys and Wiprospectramind can send. Thus, removing the h1-b cap is a devastating and horrible decision.

Back then, USAA Insurance fired 200 highly skilled US citizens and compelled them to train their replacements from India. On a TV broadcast a senior USAA executive argued that India brings IT skills that do not exist anywhere in the US. Never mind that those workers got those skills from US citizens who were required to train them as a condition of eligibility for unemployment pay.

Raising the minimum wage to $130k might help giving hiring preference to unemployed US citizens, however the Indian replacement workers are indentured employees of the big 3, Tata, Infosys and Wiprospectramind, then contracted over to the US companies. So the big 3 will probably syphon off the additional 60k and maybe launder some of it back to their US client; or they'll find some other loophole.

And that's when former presidential candidate, Carly Fiorina fired thousands of HP employees and required them to train their Indian National replacements.

What needs to happen is to require that h-1b employees become W-4 payroll employees of the US firm, deport all personnel of the big-3 back to India, reduce the h-1b cap and deport all visa overstays.

And, Tata, Infosys, and Wiprospectramind should be required to pay the terminated US worker full salary and benefits for at least a year.

Summary:
$130 min. salary and W2/W4 employees of US firm
No more indentured servitude
Deport the Big-3 body shop employees
Deport Visa overstays
Lower the h-1b cap
Remove the 1 year extension
Criminal penalties to US executives who require US citizens to train their foreign replacements.
Require 1year full salary and benefits for US citizens terminated in favor of foreign national replacements.

Sadly the above won't happen. India wins again.

a reply to: Adonsa

You appear to have more knowledge on this issue than I. I have researched the H1B VISA some, but in light of your post, it's not making sense.

$130 min. salary and W2/W4 employees of US firm

I understood H1B employees already paid taxes just like citizens, according to the IRS.

No more indentured servitude

Not sure what you mean. H1Bs can 'transfer' their H1B status to another employer.

Deport the Big-3 body shop employees

I'm lost; fill me in on this?

Deport Visa overstays

Obviously! No change is needed except enforcement.

Lower the h-1b cap

My concern as well, but I am not well-informed yet.

Remove the 1 year extension

I thought they were limited to 6 years, with extensions granted in up to 3 year increments not to exceed the 6 years?

Criminal penalties to US executives who require US citizens to train their foreign replacements.
Require 1year full salary and benefits for US citizens terminated in favor of foreign national replacements.

YES.

Although I would rather just not allow H1B unless Americans with similar skills cannot be located at the same (I would say, even at 80% of the same) wage verified by advertising the position openly for a minimum of three months. If after that time, no qualified Americans apply for the position, then allow for H1B.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
Although I would rather just not allow H1B unless Americans with similar skills cannot be located at the same (I would say, even at 80% of the same) wage verified by advertising the position openly for a minimum of three months. If after that time, no qualified Americans apply for the position, then allow for H1B.

I think they already do this, if they don't, other countries definitely do. It's basically unenforceable because the hiring process is too subjective. All they have to do is advertise the position and decline to hire anyone they interview. Alternatively, they decline to hire anyone because due to the lack of standardization in the industry they can say no one met their criteria. All I know is the software side of things but this is pretty easy to do there, give "impossible" hackerrank challenges like a timed 90 minute challenge that will take someone 12 hours to complete, advertise the position as requiring 7 years of experience in a technology that has only existed for 4, and so on.

originally posted by: Edumakated
A lot of H1-Bs are not tech employees. Their knowledge is also by no means specialized. The way the h1-b law is written there is a lot of latitude.

Are you sure about that?
en.wikipedia.org...-1B_demographics_and_tables

Going by the top companies list there, that's a lot of tech companies.

a reply to: Aazadan

Good point. It would be impossible to shut down all violations, but... remember that regulations decrease the activity regulated? It wouldn't be hard to regulate H1B to the point few would even try to use ithe if it wasn't absolutely necessary.

Increase the fees to initiate drastically, require an expensive and time-consuming report on every aspect of the job description and reasons for denial of every American who applied, give Federal inspectors up to six months to make their determination... and you'll see applications drop like a jet-propelled rock. It worked for US employment.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

My big concern here is being fair to the small to medium sized companies in the mid west and on the east coast. Those salary numbers are still pretty average for a mid level developer in SF but very prohibitive to all of the smaller companies elsewhere in the country. I want Americans to be hired, but I also want companies outside of California to have access to global talent pools for their products.

The summary of the bill that I wrote about currently forces companies to California if they can't find local workers.

It's a challenging problem, we need H1-B's but we also need to be employing our own people. Having such a wide range in the purchasing power of the dollar between different area's of the US isn't making the problem any easier.

a reply to: TheRedneck

So, they aren't interested in interviewing workers displaced by H!B polices? Ya, no agenda there.

As for the per nation cap removal, screw that. There ought to be caps of every sort.

a reply to: Aazadan

I agree with that concern. I wish I had a better solution.

Maybe if the fees, the salary limit, etc. were all tied to the geographical region or average company pay? Nah, I see problems there too.

TheRedneck

a reply to: kosmicjack

I have suspected that CNN has a pro-immigration agenda for a while... but I never expected to see such a public request for one-sided ammunition. Can we trust anyone anymore?

That cap removal is my biggest concern too.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Aazadan

I agree with that concern. I wish I had a better solution.

Maybe if the fees, the salary limit, etc. were all tied to the geographical region or average company pay? Nah, I see problems there too.

TheRedneck

It's never going to be fully eliminated, but getting the rural folks into some slightly larger towns, with some actual good paying jobs, and then getting some of the city folks into smaller towns also with good paying jobs would even things out a little bit.

One of the real problems though is that the poorer areas have worse skills on average. Recruiting workers becomes a lot harder if you move companies there.

If we were still in the days where a company could move somewhere, hire locally, then train their workforce we could turn it around with probably nothing more than a few subsidies for training. We're long past those days though.

Really hope this gets more attention and that the public can have more input. This H1b issue really hits close to home for the ATL burbs. It's overwhelming how it's changed the dynamics of my immediate area in just 12 to 18 months. It's having an impact on everything from housing prices to road safety to schools to hospitals. And we had absolutely no say-so. No recourse.

originally posted by: kosmicjack
Really hope this gets more attention and that the public can have more input. This H1b issue really hits close to home for the ATL burbs. It's overwhelming how it's changed the dynamics of my immediate area in just 12 to 18 months. It's having an impact on everything from housing prices to road safety to schools to hospitals. And we had absolutely no say-so. No recourse.

I have a family member in Atlanta. I swear that her entire apartment complex is Indian H1-Bs.

Hi Redneck, thanks for replying.

I understood H1B employees already paid taxes just like citizens, according to the IRS.

Yes, but they are typically employees of Tata, Infosys, or Wiprospectramind, all of India. They're contracted out to the US IT companies as 1099 employees or just contractors. Yes taxes are paid.

indentured servitude

Indentured servitude is illegal but it's the norm with h-1b anyway. Indian replacement workers must pay a large fee to their real employer (ie,. Tata, etc) or get repatriated back to India. According to the yourjobisgoingtoindia website they're beholden to pay over $10,000 to their real employer. According to the giant websites that support h-1b's (sorry I lost the link), the replacement workers see their visa as a ticket to green card, which it is absolutely not. So they work with this Dallas law firm to try to go from h-1b to green card.

Deport the Big-3 body shop employees
I'm lost; fill me in on this?

Yes, the "Bangalore Body Shops" (Tata, Infosys, & Wiprospectramind) have offices and managers in the US to oversee the h-1B visa program, and manage the replacement workers sent here to backfill fired US citizens. An organization called NASSCOM is India's political lobby organization with the mission to influence Congress to India's favor. All these people serve no purpose and are detrimental to the employment of US citizens, and they should be deported.

1 year extension

They get a 7th year then they overstay

It's like a disease, every year a flood of new h-1b arrivals come, and the overstay replacement workers never return to India. Carly Fiorina is their hero, by the way.