The Absurdity of Detecting Gravitational Waves

originally posted by: BrainActivity00
a reply to: GetHyped

Funny how y'all are like they're TRYING to prove it they're trying to prove it, therefore it must exist.

Whereas as im like, there is no proof, therefore it doesn't exist.

And I'm the ignorant one? Lol

You haven't suggested anything that indicates there's no proof, in fact the ignorance of your comments suggests that you haven't even reviewed the science.

The interesting thing is you're about 43 years too late with your denial, because about 43 years ago Joseph Weber claimed to have detected gravitational waves, but nobody believed him. This thread is about how nearly impossible it is to detect them with large arrays at LIGO with 4km on each arm, but Weber's detector was only something like 1 meter long, so in all likelihood it really WAS impossible to detect them with his device over 4000 times times smaller than what we are using now.

For the 41 years after that, yes people were trying to prove gravitational waves but they kept failing or getting results that like Weber's were never accepted nor confirmed. So most of the history of TRYING to prove them has failed. When you say "they're trying to prove it, therefore it must exist", nothing could be further from the truth or a higher pinnacle of ignorance after 41 years of falsifying that statement, until finally 42 years later the first measurement that wasn't shot down was achieved.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

U Just said what I did. That no one has scientifically proven gravity waves or anything else that you could use to measure gravity. All there are is a bunch of theories and hopes that some test might work. But nothing has.

originally posted by: BrainActivity00
a reply to: Arbitrageur

U Just said what I did. That no one has scientifically proven gravity waves or anything else that you could use to measure gravity. All there are is a bunch of theories and hopes that some test might work. But nothing has.

What are you talking about? They did prove they exist with this test. Did you even watch the video???

Ladies and gentlemen. We…. have detected…. gravitational waves! We did it!" And so, with those carefully paced words, on February 11, 2016 Dr. David Reitze, LIGO Executive Director announced to the world one of the most remarkable scientific accomplishments in 100 years

Immediately, the National Press Club in Washington DC, packed to the rafters with media from around the globe, erupted in thunderous applause, acknowledging the importance and weight of the long-awaited discovery. This scene of revelry and excitement was played out in dozens of locations around the world where LIGO and Virgo staff, scientists, and engineers eagerly watched the press conference streaming live over the internet.

The ovation in the press club was fueled largely by the excitement of witnessing history in the making (the media had learned of the discovery just hours before the announcement), but the rousing cheers buffeting auditorium walls at LIGO’s Hanford and Livingston observatories, at Caltech and MIT, and many other institutions around the world, were fueled by enormous pride and a great sense of relief! Finally, LIGO’s secret was out and we could all openly talk about our momentous discovery.

While the world learned of the detection on that February morning, almost every member of the LIGO scientific collaboration (LSC) knew about it the day it happened: September 14, 2015

originally posted by: BrainActivity00
a reply to: Arbitrageur

U Just said what I did. That no one has scientifically proven gravity waves or anything else that you could use to measure gravity. All there are is a bunch of theories and hopes that some test might work. But nothing has.

That you are ignorant of such tests has no bearing on their validity.

a reply to: BrainActivity00

Honestly?

Look, just because you do not understand something, does not make it any less of an existent property. When you were five years old, you may have seen a picture of a mountain, and thought "I do not understand how a spike of rock could get so big!". But that does not mean that mountains have not been proven to exist, only that you did not understand how they came about.

LIGO has detected gravity waves, they do exist, and your capacity to understand the proof as offered, does not alter that reality one bit!

originally posted by: BrainActivity00
a reply to: Arbitrageur
U Just said what I did.

If that's the level of your reading comprehension, there's no point in trying to help you understand any further, but no, I did not just say what you did.

That video doesn't prove anything. I'm sorry if you think it does. First of all they don't even show ONE example of them actually detecting a change in the light stretching, and going to see this light stretched this much where as the next light beam didn't.... They didn't show that ONCE! They didn't show it repeated over time, they never ONCE said here's where our TWO test sites got the EXACT SAME RESULT AT THE EXACT SAME TIME, AND THIS HAPPENED ON MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS. That's what you would need to even show your even detecting any change that is a definite world wide phenomenon meaning whatever is effecting the light stretch is a gigantic force.

So with no actual results shown.... We can move on to the next question, which is IF they had shown actual repeatable results, because that's what science takes to prove something, repeatable results that can be demonstrated over and over again... If they had truly detected something and shown actual results and proof of it, the results don't prove that it was Gravity Waves that they were detecting. The idea that gravity bends space and time is a theory first of all, not proven. Secondly there's no way of knowing if gravity is what would be creating the changes, it could be some other form of quantum mechanics no one knows about. Or it could be some type environmental contamination. If they could get results that happen on different sides of the earth at the same time, rather then a few 1000 miles away in the same country that would help their case.

It's also kind of funny how the scientist kind of jokingly says it's all bull crap and doesn't make sense and is bogus several times... guilty conscience or fraudian slip?

And lastly, they are basing what they think they will or have (no evidence shown) find... on the fact that over a billion years ago two black holes collapsed or whatever.... and that high energy event's ripples is what they're detecting???? One, how do they know a black hole collapsed over a billion years ago???? Were they there? Did aliens tell them? Did God tell them this??? It's a stupid unproveable assumption. It also makes everything in the test laughable. Here are the holes, sort of speak... So they're detecting some unknown, not seen, not proveable, 2 black hole collapse, so VERY SPECIFIC... But if that event trillions upon trillions of miles away can somehow reach us and be detected.... uh, what about the millions of other black hole collapses that must have happened over the last couple billion years all over the galaxy or universe????? They don't think those other collapses couldn't knock into the energy from this one and alter it or cancel it out??? How do they know there wasn't a bigger event and they're detecting that energy???? Or how about this..... how is it they can detect a gravity wave from over a BILLION YEARS AGO THAT HAS TRAVELED TRILLIONS OF MILES........but they cant detect gravity waves produced by earth's mass itself??? They cant detect something from the sun or anything??? And wouldn't earths own gravity just soak up some billions of years old nothing gravity wave???? It makes no sense people.

a reply to: BrainActivity00

you ignorance is amazing

www.youtube.com...

this video is the press release, they show data and talk about how they got to that data set.

bending of spacetime is a given, its been proven over and over and over, it can be observed near the limb of our own sun, and the anomalous orbit of mercury are all local evidence for it.

try harder, your huge post is based on false assumptions, arrogance and ignorance

a reply to: BrainActivity00

It is a theory which holds a significant amount more weight than your argument against it. The theory, unlike your post, is not a simple matter of poorly formed opinion, based on nothing but contrarian, anti-thought, but an observed function of gravity that has been noted by people using gravitational lensing, and studying black holes and other massive objects for quite some significant time now.

Only an abysmal lack of fundamental understanding of the sciences could possibly lead you to believe otherwise.

a reply to: BrainActivity00

Just... stop. It's the height of hubris and ignorance to dismiss scientific evidence which you clearly do not understand. All you achieve is making yourself look very foolish indeed.

originally posted by: BrainActivity00
First of all they don't even show ONE example of them actually detecting a change in the light stretching, and going to see this light stretched this much where as the next light beam didn't.... They didn't show that ONCE! They didn't show it repeated over time, they never ONCE said here's where our TWO test sites got the EXACT SAME RESULT AT THE EXACT SAME TIME, AND THIS HAPPENED ON MULTIPLE OCCASSIONS. That's what you would need to even show your even detecting any change that is a definite world wide phenomenon meaning whatever is effecting the light stretch is a gigantic force.

So with no actual results shown.... We can move on to the next question, which is IF they had shown actual repeatable results, because that's what science takes to prove something, repeatable results that can be demonstrated over and over again... If they had truly detected something and shown actual results and proof of it, the results don't prove that it was Gravity Waves that they were detecting. The idea that gravity bends space and time is a theory first of all, not proven. Secondly there's no way of knowing if gravity is what would be creating the changes, it could be some other form of quantum mechanics no one knows about. Or it could be some type environmental contamination. If they could get results that happen on different sides of the earth at the same time, rather then a few 1000 miles away in the same country that would help their case.

It's also kind of funny how the scientist kind of jokingly says it's all bull crap and doesn't make sense and is bogus several times... guilty conscience or fraudian slip?

And lastly, they are basing what they think they will or have (no evidence shown) find... on the fact that over a billion years ago two black holes collapsed or whatever.... and that high energy event's ripples is what they're detecting???? One, how do they know a black hole collapsed over a billion years ago???? Were they there? Did aliens tell them? Did God tell them this??? It's a stupid unproveable assumption. It also makes everything in the test laughable. Here are the holes, sort of speak... So they're detecting some unknown, not seen, not proveable, 2 black hole collapse, so VERY SPECIFIC... But if that event trillions upon trillions of miles away can somehow reach us and be detected.... uh, what about the millions of other black hole collapses that must have happened over the last couple billion years all over the galaxy or universe????? They don't think those other collapses couldn't knock into the energy from this one and alter it or cancel it out??? How do they know there wasn't a bigger event and they're detecting that energy???? Or how about this..... how is it they can detect a gravity wave from over a BILLION YEARS AGO THAT HAS TRAVELED TRILLIONS OF MILES........but they cant detect gravity waves produced by earth's mass itself??? They cant detect something from the sun or anything??? And wouldn't earths own gravity just soak up some billions of years old nothing gravity wave???? It makes no sense people.

This is a huge portion of the work that is done by many of the scientists and engineers in the LIGO Scientific Collaboration -- separating a gravitational wave vibration from all the other vibrations the detectors feel (LIGO calls any non-gravitational wave vibration "noise"). To confirm a detection, we use several techniques to help sift through the noise, including:

Measuring all known noise sources (e.g. earthquakes, winds, ocean waves, trucks driving by on nearby roads, farming activities, even molecular vibrations in LIGO's mirrors) with seismometers, magnetometers, microphones, and gamma ray detectors, and then filtering out the signals caused by these noise sources from our data.
Looking for identical, simultaneous signals from multiple detectors world-wide (LIGO, Virgo, GEO600). This rules out noise sources which are local to a given detector. The more detectors that feel the same vibration at "the same time" (accounting for a gravitational-wave's travel time between detectors), the more certain we are that the source of the vibration was not local.
Using sophisticated analysis techniques to filter out and separate noise from a potential signal
Comparing the signals received with theorized patterns of gravitational waves generated by known phenomena
Confirming the timing of the possible gravitational wave event with astronomical observatories, hoping to see a coincident electromagnetic event on the sky (e.g. light from a supernova explosion).
Despite these precautions, however, no measuring device is 100% accurate or precise, so no result of an experiment is ever 100% certain. For LIGO, we'd like to be more than 99.9999% sure that a possible detection wasn't just noise.

With these methods, LIGO was able to confirm that the signals received at the Livingston and Hanford observatories on September 14th, 2015 were generated by an astrophysical event--in this case, the merger of two massive black holes, 1.3 billion light years away! This first EVER confirmed detection of gravitational waves demonstrates that our efforts to understand noise sources and the designs of the observatories themselves have paid off.

nce LIGO reaches its most sensitive state we could detect about 40 per year, but that's just from merging neutron stars. There will be even more if we detect other sources like supernovae or more merging black holes (which is precisely what LIGO detected for the very first time on September 14, 2015).

You might now ask, "how is this possible if such events are so rare in our galaxy?"

If LIGO couldn't hear anything outside of our own galaxy (say beyond 80,000 light years), we would probably have to wait a very long time to detect a gravitational wave. But LIGO’s advanced detectors can hear thousands of times father away than this, listening for gravitational wave vibrations from galaxies hundreds of millions of light years away.

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originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Phage

If the tree fell, then it displaced air on the way down, and its impact with the ground caused a shockwave to propagate through the air. Whether anyone was there to hear it, does not change that fact. In this case then, observation is not necessary in order for the physical process of the creation of sound to occur.

A sound isn't a sound without something to interpret it as such ( to hear it), otherwise it's just waves of vibrating air molecules. Kind of like having music playing on radio waves but no radio to interpret it into sound.

a reply to: Alien Abduct

Music unheard is still music. Transmissions which do not get received are still transmitted. The truth, even if it is unknown, is still the truth, and a persons ability to perceive it or not changes nothing of its status.

The universe is a complicated place, in which uncountable myriads of things that we do not yet know of, occur every second. That they occur is a fact. That we have not yet learned to see them all, or what they mean is also a fact. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. If it were otherwise, only our perception of an event or phenomenon would make it possible, but we know this is not the case.

Take, for example, the existence of Black Holes. Black Holes were not even theorised about until well into the age of science and industry. And yet, the one at the center of this galaxy has been gobbling up whatever fell near to its core, for longer than the planet we are standing on has existed, and will likely go on doing so for longer than this solar system has left to run its cosmic clockwork. Our ability to perceive its operation, or lack thereof, makes no difference to the fact of it.

By the same token, a sound being made is not dependent on its being heard, only on the mechanical process necessary to create a wave of displaced air that COULD be heard. Whether someone is there to hear it or not, makes no difference whatsoever to the fact that the sound was made.

a reply to: TrueBrit

A sound IS something that is heard. Or else like I said its just vibrating air molecules.

(still reading the comments...)
All very interesting, but a complete waste of time & money IMO.
This is the Michelson-Morley experiment all over again.

Edit: If gravity travels in 'waves', can one assume that gravity is made of particles like waves of light, water and air? Does that mean they are looking for that 'graviton' (particle)?

I don't think gravitons exist, since they would need mass & can't travel faster than light, gravity does, besides current theory thinking of it as a force like a magnetic field, it isn't, well not in the classical sense anyway.

They are going about it all wrong, i'm surprised they got anything at all (well 2 black holes colliding might register!). Forget lasers, forget trying to measure length or mass, the changes are so small they get lost in the backround noise.

A gravity wave passing through their detector will distort the tunnel, the laser, and everything else, even the peeps. Because everything changes by the same amount, there's no measurement.

What you have to do, is because you can't 'see' a gravity wave, but you can 'listen'.

This was done by T.T.Brown way back in the 30's, and detecting them is just as easy as making them.
This is from his original notebook, he used this to measure effects from the moon & other planets, and he found strong waves emanating from what he called the galactic centre.



This is my updated version of Brown's experiment, which i designed years ago, and it works.

You take a tin, you put some insulating rods on the inside.
On the end of each rod is a spring, and in between them you place your 'sample' this can be any crystalline structure like granite, quartz etc.

You put 300-1000 volts across the sample.
In series with the sample is a 1:1 RF transformer, also inside the tin. Mine has a whole array of them, being switched from outside.






Switch on, turn up the volume and listen, you can also put the signal through a scope or signal analyser.


It works like this;
Gravity waves distort the crystals, this affects their conductance (or more accurately their dielectric response), this leads to tiny changes in the current, which can be amplified, recorded etc.
What you hear is NOT a radio signal, since the tin is completely enclosed & grounded.

Easy, no?

Making gravity waves is similar, except you need a specially shaped high K dielectric & the voltage applied is elevated AC (in other words, an AC signal modulated onto a high DC voltage, typically 100Kv or more).



If the dielectric (which Brown called a 'gravitor') is hanging on threads or in an oil bath, it will move, if you clamp it down the gravity wave is a bit stronger.
These waves are highly directional, superluminal and can pass right through walls lead steel etc.

So now you know

Hmm what frequency?

How about 1.21 Gigahertz, that band is reserved for 'space research' by all the major countries including China, India, Russia etc etc.
Here i have just posted the UK and US bands.





I have been warned that should you attempt to transmit using gravity comms, you will have MIB's on your doorstep in no time, well i havent seen any yet, maybe they went to the neighbour's house!
Strange, huh?

Oh, and no i haven't tried that frequency yet, i don't have time to dig up a TV tuner & de-tune it, but i would like to since you can then listen to AM and FM at the same time
If one of you beat me to it & pick up the secret space fleet, please record it for the rest of us.

Later

a reply to: intrptr

What other 'undisclosed' purpose does this contraption have? I bore in on this because to me its seems such a delicate passage of such distant gravity waves would be out shined[/]i by the close source of gravity, our own sun. No...?

It also seems continuous firing of a mw laser is expensive, in the hopes of catching such rare events.

Yes, i think you are right. And yes it's an enormous amount of power.
My detector uses less than 1 watt, the transmitter 12-16 watts.

And it's portable, that thing sure isnt, LOL

a reply to: FauxMulder

Hmm the Google answer isnt really correct, since magnets do not emit photons.
So we have to go looking for Magnetons as well, in that case.

The whole higgs boson thing was trying to find the graviton after all ( i read they found half of it, what kind of answer is that?)
I half-won the lottery, meaning i didn't.

For some reason they insist in thinking in 4-d mass terms, instead of more esoteric ones, that's why they insist these 'particles' travel at light speed. Ask an astronomer how long it takes for the gravity of one system to interact with another. The answer is, instantly.

One other thing bothers me, 2 black holes colliding would merge into one big one, there woud be an implosion not an explosion. I would like to know where they get their numbers from.....

Partice wave duality may be explained like this;
When it is a wave, it is active in the E and M regions of aether space.
However, when it passes through the (oops) zero point, it is in effect not a wave, it is zero.

At that moment when it has a 'zero' wave function, it is THEN acting as a particle.

Obviously it's not the wave or the particle that's interesting, it is interesting to find what (and how) happens at that transition point.

originally posted by: playswithmachines
I don't think gravitons exist, since they would need mass & can't travel faster than light, gravity does, besides current theory thinking of it as a force like a magnetic field, it isn't, well not in the classical sense anyway.

Nobody knows if gravitons exist but they are hypothesized to be massless spin 2 particles if they do exist so I have no idea why you say they need mass.

They are going about it all wrong, i'm surprised they got anything at all (well 2 black holes colliding might register!). Forget lasers, forget trying to measure length or mass, the changes are so small they get lost in the backround noise.

The changes did get lost in the background for the first 41 years we tried to measure them. It was only after additional enhancements to the technology that we finally got a signal above background.

A gravity wave passing through their detector will distort the tunnel, the laser, and everything else, even the peeps. Because everything changes by the same amount, there's no measurement.

That would be true if you only measured in one direction. However there's a reason the LIGO detectors extend in two different directions which is explained in the OP video.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

So if gravitons exist, and are indeed massless,why do peeps think they are limited to C ?

Yes, a gravity wave if small enough would pass through only 1 detector, but again it will show a very small response for the reasons i stated.
So what you might have is detector 1 zero response, detector 2 a tiny response.
Also they are assuming that these gravity waves are travelling at C so those black holes must have collided millions of years ago, but it could have been much later if the waves are superluminal.....

The rock method is easier & works extremely well, Brown measured changes on a daily, weekly, monthly & yearly basis, he correctly identified the ablation of the moon in his recordings.