Why is the Government and John McCain lying about Russia???

Some people believe that the only way to bring the country to a robust economy is through war. That has worked well when the government controlled the media but now with the internet, people can debunk that propaganda.

McCain is old school, some of those in the intelligence agencies are war mongers too.

They are not bad people, they just have learned things the way our grandparents learned them. I would not trust Russia too much though, there are people there who would want to rule the world too. Also there are war mongers over there who feel the same way about us as some of the people in the intelligence agencies and how McCain feels. A lot of people do not trust the Russians and other communists much. Others do not trust Muslims. Nobody really trusts Saudi Arabia except a few people taking campaign contributions from them.

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
From what Ive seen and read John McCain is no hero.

...

Your a hero when you defend your homeland, I cant think of a word low enough to describe people who travel overseas to kill others because their Gov was worried about

That includes WW1, WW2, Korean, Viet Name, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans in your definition of not being able to think of a "word low enough to describe" them.

You can call those folks whatever you like from the comfort of your keyboard, many of those people you despise fought for your right to do so, but personally I won't be taking anything you say seriously again.

I dont despise them but I dont respect people just because theyre soldiers, In my quoted statement I was referring to pilots who drop bombs from the safety of their planes, therye not soldiers in my opinion.

Those pilots save the lives of the soldiers on the ground, often when they are near defeat.

And the irony by which you quip "the safety of their planes" whilst specifically discussing a man who was shot down, captured and spent 6 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp and carries the wounds of his torture to this day.... is stunning.

originally posted by: rickymouse
Some people believe that the only way to bring the country to a robust economy is through war. That has worked well when the government controlled the media but now with the internet, people can debunk that propaganda.

McCain is old school, some of those in the intelligence agencies are war mongers too.

Why do you think the choices are sovereignty or war?

I think you irrationally fear Putin's capabilities.

Do you believe the USA taking a strong public stance against Russia's aggressions and interference in US elections means we will go to war? Are those the options? The USA must be silent and weak or risk war with Russia.

Objectively I don't see that happening. I think Russia's incapability of challenging the USA militarily is precisely what leads it to conduct propaganda and influence campaigns. It is it's only avenue to influence US world affairs.

a reply to: PistolPete

None of this is about partisan politics, it's about control of natural resources. Trump doesn't care about you, either did Hillary. They don't want to use the Government to govern, they want to use it to secure money and power.

Well said
Glad some are aware of the actual events unfolding

originally posted by: facedye

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: facedye

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: facedye

if I work for the FBI and tell you your best friend killed someone in the woods last night, but told you I can't prove it to you or give you any qualifying details, would you be inclined to believe me?

If I knew my friend was a killer: absolutely. Vladimir Putin was a KGB officer. The KGB covertly tried to influence American elections. Here is former Russian ambassador to the United States describing events that took place in 1968:

To Moscow, Humphrey certainly was preferable to Richard Nixon, who had founded and built his career on opposing communism and was considered profoundly anti-Soviet. Our leadership was growing seriously concerned that he might win the election. As a result the top Soviet leaders took an extraordinary step, unprecedented in the history of Soviet-American relations, by secretly offering Humphrey any conceivable help in his election campaign—including financial aid

.I received a top-secret instruction to that effect from Gromyko person-ally and did my utmost to dissuade him from embarking on such a dangerous venture, which if discovered certainly would have backfired and ensured Humphrey's defeat, to say nothing of the real trouble it would have caused for Soviet-American relations. Gromyko answered laconically, "There is a decision, you carry it out.

"Shortly afterward, I happened to be at breakfast at Humphrey's home.Naturally, we talked about the election campaign, so I tried to take advantage of that to carry out my instructions as tactfully as possible. I asked him how his campaign was going, and then I moved the conversation diplomatically to the state of his campaign finances. Humphrey, I must say, was not only a very intelligent but also a very clever man. He knew at once what was going on. He told me it was more than enough for him to have Moscow's good wishes, which he highly appreciated. The matter was thus settled to our mutual relief, never to be discussed again.

Anatoli Dobrynin, "In Confidence," p. 195.

wow you really just keep grasping. unreal.

what are you getting at? are you really going to sit there and not consider how many of our previous presidents have been heavily tied to the intelligence community themselves prior to holding office?

seriously, in blunt words, what is your point?

Thousands...

Vladimir Putin has had thousands of Journalists and political opponents beaten, tortured, arrested and killed and continues to do so today.

how many western journalists has putin had beaten, tortured, arrested or killed?

let's try to stay on topic here. yes, he's a tyrant. we all know this. what are you getting at?

I assumed you were likening him to Pres Bush Sr., being former director of the CIA?

My point was the CIA is different than the KGB...The Russian Gov. is different the US Gov. Putin is a murderous Tyrant.

If the CIA regularly had the Presidents political opponents and critical journalists arrested, beaten, tortured and killed you might have a point.

Perhaps I misread your argument? Please clarify.

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
From what Ive seen and read John McCain is no hero.

...

Your a hero when you defend your homeland, I cant think of a word low enough to describe people who travel overseas to kill others because their Gov was worried about

That includes WW1, WW2, Korean, Viet Name, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans in your definition of not being able to think of a "word low enough to describe" them.

You can call those folks whatever you like from the comfort of your keyboard, many of those people you despise fought for your right to do so, but personally I won't be taking anything you say seriously again.

I dont despise them but I dont respect people just because theyre soldiers, In my quoted statement I was referring to pilots who drop bombs from the safety of their planes, therye not soldiers in my opinion.

WW1 and WW2 were completely different kettles of fish to the other wars you mention, those 2 wars were fought against countries or coalitions of countries that were looking at world domination. The rest of those wars were the US getting involved in a countries internal politics or regional disputes.
Its been over 50 years since anyone fought for your or my freedom and if you believe differently youve drunk the kool aid or were personally involved and cant accept that you were manipulated.

Ive said many times that I believe most soldiers hearts are in the right place but it doesnt change the fact that their good intentions and patriotism were abused by those in power.

Although Im saddened you will no longer take me seriously Im more flattered that you ever did

Oh so Snipers are scum too eh? Bomber crews are just as much soldiers as they are. in fact they are normally in more danger than ground troops. at least a ground troop that falls can get back up. a crew of a bomber most likely will die if shot down. My granddad was a gunner in a bomber. shot down 3 german 109's while being shot at himself directly. was he not a soldier? He was tortured in a nazi POW camp and lost his hearing due to a SS officer putting his head under water and he shot his mauser off near his ears. the Officer got his though eventually when they liberated the camp.

Blame the poloticians in charge not the soldiers. they do as they are told.

a reply to: yuppa

Blame the poloticians in charge not the soldiers. they do as they are told.

My point exactly

Heres where it gets really sticky, that nazi soldier who tortured your grandfather was also just doing what he was told.
Politicians told him he needed to go out and kill to protect the German way of life and stop them being overrun by communists and other attacks that were just around the corner if they didnt attack first.

Does that in anyway sound familiar?

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
From what Ive seen and read John McCain is no hero.

...

Your a hero when you defend your homeland, I cant think of a word low enough to describe people who travel overseas to kill others because their Gov was worried about

That includes WW1, WW2, Korean, Viet Name, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans in your definition of not being able to think of a "word low enough to describe" them.

You can call those folks whatever you like from the comfort of your keyboard, many of those people you despise fought for your right to do so, but personally I won't be taking anything you say seriously again.

I dont despise them but I dont respect people just because theyre soldiers, In my quoted statement I was referring to pilots who drop bombs from the safety of their planes, therye not soldiers in my opinion.

Those pilots save the lives of the soldiers on the ground, often when they are near defeat.

And the irony by which you quip "the safety of their planes" whilst specifically discussing a man who was shot down, captured and spent 6 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp and carries the wounds of his torture to this day.... is stunning.

Yep and those soldiers on the ground have zero reason to be there other than they were lied to by their governments.

Do you actually expect me to feel sympathy for a pilot who gets shot down and then tortured?
Do you feel any sympathy for the people he killed or their families? Im guessing not since you think hes actions were heroic

I dont care what country hes from if hes been bombing people to death and he walks away from it with some injuries or bad memories Id say hes ahead of the game when compared to all the people he killed.

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
From what Ive seen and read John McCain is no hero.

...

Your a hero when you defend your homeland, I cant think of a word low enough to describe people who travel overseas to kill others because their Gov was worried about

That includes WW1, WW2, Korean, Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans in your definition of not being able to think of a "word low enough to describe" them.

You can call those folks whatever you like from the comfort of your keyboard, many of those people you despise fought for your right to do so, but personally I won't be taking anything you say seriously again.

I dont despise them but I dont respect people just because theyre soldiers, In my quoted statement I was referring to pilots who drop bombs from the safety of their planes, therye not soldiers in my opinion.

Those pilots save the lives of the soldiers on the ground, often when they are near defeat.

And the irony by which you quip "the safety of their planes" whilst specifically discussing a man who was shot down, captured and spent 6 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp and carries the wounds of his torture to this day.... is stunning.

Yep and those soldiers on the ground have zero reason to be there other than they were lied to by their governments.

Do you actually expect me to feel sympathy for a pilot who gets shot down and then tortured?

Inaction costs lives too. Knowing how to sort that out is the responsibility of power.

There were plenty who thought like yourself during WW2..that it was not "defending the homeland"...and thus not our problem...but imagining a world where Hitler reigned over Europe for decades and the final solution was finalized?

Your condemnation of US soldiers, and inference that they deserve torture and death disgusts me...and for effs sake I am what most consider a bleeding heart liberal.

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
From what Ive seen and read John McCain is no hero.

...

Your a hero when you defend your homeland, I cant think of a word low enough to describe people who travel overseas to kill others because their Gov was worried about

That includes WW1, WW2, Korean, Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans in your definition of not being able to think of a "word low enough to describe" them.

You can call those folks whatever you like from the comfort of your keyboard, many of those people you despise fought for your right to do so, but personally I won't be taking anything you say seriously again.

I dont despise them but I dont respect people just because theyre soldiers, In my quoted statement I was referring to pilots who drop bombs from the safety of their planes, therye not soldiers in my opinion.

Those pilots save the lives of the soldiers on the ground, often when they are near defeat.

And the irony by which you quip "the safety of their planes" whilst specifically discussing a man who was shot down, captured and spent 6 years in a North Vietnamese prison camp and carries the wounds of his torture to this day.... is stunning.

Yep and those soldiers on the ground have zero reason to be there other than they were lied to by their governments.

Do you actually expect me to feel sympathy for a pilot who gets shot down and then tortured?

Inaction costs lives too. Knowing how to sort that out is the responsibility of power.

There were plenty who thought like yourself during WW2..that it was not "defending the homeland"...and thus not our problem...but imagining a world where Hitler reigned over Europe for decades and the final solution was finalized?

Your condemnation of US soldiers, and inference that they deserve torture and death disgusts me...and for effs sake I am what most consider a bleeding heart liberal.

Your comparing the current wars being fought and WW2 disgusts me.

My condemnation of soldiers isnt confined to US soldiers, its any soldier who fights in an overseas war when that country isnt a threat to theirs, ironically all the wars and coups that have been perpetrated by the US have actually made you all less safe.
Its not that I feel anyone deserves torture or death but those who dish it out in whatever form cant complain when its dished back, do you think the Korean who tortured him was wrong? To that Korean he was a man who decided to rain death from above on his countrymen for no reason other than his government didnt like the way the Korean government was run

I feel your pain, recently on this site Ive been called an effing right wing fascist

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
a reply to: yuppa

Blame the poloticians in charge not the soldiers. they do as they are told.

My point exactly

Heres where it gets really sticky, that nazi soldier who tortured your grandfather was also just doing what he was told.
Politicians told him he needed to go out and kill to protect the German way of life and stop them being overrun by communists and other attacks that were just around the corner if they didnt attack first.

Does that in anyway sound familiar?

Oh no. this one told them he did it for grins because his commanders didnt care what he did. the only on eover this guy was the guy in charge of the POW camp. Im paraphrasing but this was way beyond duty to country.

Who in the heck keeps voting for this opiated and mind-controlled war hawk?

The following Rolling Stone article addresses the subject of psy-ops/disinfo masterfully played out on our own politicos in the Mid-East and features John McCain as the hypno-puppet he is.

Psy-Ops and the General

McCain and others Hypnotized?

a reply to: DJW001

Where is your evidence that Russia was not trying to influence the election?

Where is your evidence that God does not exist?

See what I did there? You cannot prove a negative. That question does raise concerns over your ability in understanding the scientific process.

Your little opinion over the video has no evidence to back the claim. It's very clear they are cheering over the aversion of nuclear war had Hillary been elected.

Very sad.

OP should never side with McCain, maybe someone could pull up his music video 'Bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran'.

a reply to: GodEmperor

Where is your evidence that God does not exist?

See what I did there? You cannot prove a negative. That question does raise concerns over your ability in understanding the scientific process.

So the null hypothesis is that Russia does not attempt to affect the internal politics of other nations? How does that jibe with the mountains of evidence that they do?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

My null hypothesis is that Vladimir Putin will do anything he needs to in order to make Russia a world power again. Do you have a problem with that? Some people seem to think he is either unwilling or incapable. I call that "Russophobia."

ETA: I'm not siding with McCain. That would be like saying Trump was siding with the KKK, just because they agree on a few points.

Russia can't even win in Syria against a bunch of primitive jihadists. Russia is much weaker than it looks. I don't believe Russia has the capability to affect the US election. Not a single country ever complained about Russia influence in its election.

Russia can't even win in Syria against a bunch of primitive jihadists. Russia is much weaker than it looks. I don't believe Russia has the capability to affect the US election. Not a single country ever complained about Russia influence in its election.

a reply to: DJW001

The null hypothesis is that Russia will act according to their interest in longevity and prosperity.

Whatever your claims of influencing elections, cannot be proven. You do not have the data-sets to show how many people viewed Russian propaganda, or how many of those people were actually influenced by Russian propaganda.

All you are left with is convincing people over something that cannot be proven with any measure of scientific certainty.

a reply to: banjobrain

Congress needs a boogeyman to fund the military industrial complex. They have a vested interest in maintaining hostilities between the US and Russia.

a reply to: GodEmperor

The null hypothesis is that Russia will act according to their interest in longevity and prosperity.

In that case, they would have impeached Putin when he exploited a loophole in the Constitution. They did not. Russia's actions are dictated by an individual who puts his own priorities over those of the nation. You can replace "Russia" with "Putin" in the two null hypotheses and instantly see one remains valid and the other does not.

Whatever your claims of influencing elections, cannot be proven. You do not have the data-sets to show how many people viewed Russian propaganda, or how many of those people were actually influenced by Russian propaganda.

You don't seem to understand the issue. The question is not whether the Russians successfully influenced the election, it is whether they tried. The former is impossible to prove, the latter is self evidently true.

Russia never hacked DNC. Putin never hacked DNC. It's not their style. They never meddle in another country's elections or referendums. It was a commercial software that hacked Podesta. Might as well be Barron Trump who did it. That kid's awesome with computers.