Paul vs. Satan's Servants

2 Corinthians 11 5-15

As far as I can tell I am, these arch-apostles have nothing more than I have. I may not be a polished speaker, but as for knowledge, that is a different matter; survey we have made this plain, speaking on every subject in front of you all.-------


At the beginning of chapter 11 Paul says '' The jealousy I feel for you [thow shall not covet?] is God's jealousy : I arranged for you to marry Christian... but then the Serpent, with his cunning, seduced Eve'', which is a metaphor for his followers going astray towards the Gospel preached by the apostles, sarcastically called arch-apostles.

On the same people in 11:13:

''These people are counterfeit apostles, they are dishonest workmen disguised as apostles of Christ. There is nothing unexpected about that; if Satan himself goes about as an angel of light, there is no need to be surprised when his servants too, disguise themselves as the servants of righteousness. ''

Wow. Who knew Paul harbored so much resentment for the apostles so as to, despite being unable to deny righteous activity which is a work of the Holy Spirit and can't be attributed to Satan per Jesus and the unpardonable sin he still accuses Satan of doing the work of an angel of light (who would work for the Spirit) so he can say they are basically running a scam in a desperate plea to get back his former converts by writing a letter they may have never read or just ignored?

How do Christians reconcile the fact that Paul who was not an apostle according to the apostles, called them ''his servants'' meaning Satan?

Jesus apostles being called counterfeit by the author of most of the books of the New Testament and the most by one author?

It's one of the most used quotes ''angel of light'' by far and nobody ever me mentions who it is about for obvious reasons, not having a way to explain it they don't study the passage and just repeat the quote until everyone has no reason to examine it thinking they know it so well.

Maybe by design or coincidence but it works either way.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Personally I've always thought of Paul as an opportunist and charlatan.

a reply to: FyreByrd

He rocked in the Beatles, though.

originally posted by: FyreByrd
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Personally I've always thought of Paul as an opportunist and charlatan.

Agreed.

originally posted by: swanne
a reply to: FyreByrd

He rocked in the Beatles, though.

They are also both more popular than Jesus too, or bigger.

According to the Beatles, among modern Christians, in each respective case.

Well, a good man is one who suffered the fires of hell. Speaking of which, my own hell is waiting for me... Well, I better meet with it and get it over with.

I hate goodbyes.

Night, I shall think of you for it is night which soothes my soul.

The most telling thing about this topic is that Christians won't even try to defend Paul on this one so they either know and don't care or care and don't know.

Now, I hope they do. As many as possible.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Jesus apostles being called counterfeit by the author of most of the books of the New Testament and the most by one author?

I do not understand your rant whatsoever as you seem to be all over the place with misunderstood interpretation. As a Jewish Christian I would like to give you the Nazarene perspective of interpretation so that you and your friends may know the truth as to what this scripture is relating to the English world.
Quote
CEPHER QORINTIYM SHENIY
The Second Pseudepigraphical Cepher To The Corinthians
(From Philippi, a city of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas)

1 I would like you to bear with me in a little foolishness - please do bear with me!
2 For I am jealous for you with God's kind of jealousy; since I promised to present you as a pure virgin in marriage to your one husband, the Messiah;
3 and I fear that somehow your minds may be seduced away from simple and pure devotion to the Messiah, just as Havah was deceived by the serpent and his craftiness.
4 For if someone comes and tells you about some other Yeshua than the one we told you about, or if you receive a spirit different from the one you received or accept some so-called "good news" different from the Good News you already accepted, you bear with him well enough!
5 For I don't consider myself in any way inferior to these "super-emissaries."
6 I may not be a skilled speaker, but I do have the knowledge; anyhow, we have made this clear to you in every way and in every circumstance.
7 Or did I sin in humbling myself so that you could be exalted, in proclaiming God's Good News to you free of charge?
8 I robbed other congregations by accepting support from them in order to serve you.
9 And when I was with you and had needs, I did not burden anyone: my needs were met by the brothers who came from Macedonia. In nothing have I been a burden to you, nor will I be.
10 The truthfulness of the Messiah is in me, so that this boast concerning me is not going to be silenced anywhere in Achaia.
11 Why won't I ever accept your support? Is it that I don't love you? God knows I do!
12 No, I do it - and will go on doing it - in order to cut the ground from under those who want an excuse to boast that they work the same way we do.
13 The fact is that such men are pseudo-emissaries: they tell lies about their work and masquerade as emissaries of the Messiah.
14 There is nothing surprising in that, for the Adversary himself masquerades as an angel of light;
15 so it's no great thing if his workers masquerade as servants of righteousness. They will meet the end their deeds deserve.
16 I repeat: don't let anyone think I am a fool. But even if you do, at least receive me as a fool; so that I too may do a little boasting!
Unquote

Sources - Translated and Commentary by David H. Sterrn - Jewish New Testament Publican Inc. ------------------
2014 Cepher Publishing Group LLC ---------------- 1611 KJV translations of the Greek MSS----------------------

Also you do not even understand that Saul/Paul has only authored seven of the twenty seven accredited letters of the NT. You are in serious need of a teacher of the biblical literature.

Your credibility is destroyed as you are known as untruthful and a deceiver (liar) of men. My Opinion of Course ----

a reply to: Seede


And I proved already you are no Nazarene.

2 simple reasons, they despised Paul historically and didn't believe Jesus was God.

So you are a wannabe, not a real, Nazarene.

When I showed you the historical facts you stopped responding in that thread.

I have no problem repeating every word of it if you want to keep claiming to be something that no longer exists because of the Romans.

a reply to: Seede



So you are saying Paul didn't write all of the letters attributed him?

Like I didn't know that, it is not something that matters as it makea the New Testament a forgery if true, at least most.

You should stop assuming you know what is in my head and if you have a problem with false authorship in the NT you admit your religion is a lie.

It's called pseudepigraphy and applies to most of the Bible books, and is totally not my problem aa I didn't forge them.

I will use a translation in a language more simple to show another interesting quote from the same book.

2 Co. 12

'' I have to brag. Tbere is nothing to be gained by it., but I must brag about the visions and other things that the lord has shown me. I know about one of Christ's followers who got caught up into the thirteenth heaven... ''

Anyone interested in Christ's prophecy about people who claim to have secretly communicated in any way or seen him in Mt. 24, '' Do not believe them'' is his response.

Before one wonders who on earth ever vouched for having saw Paul personally receiving revelations Paul himself provides the answer.

13:1 And as the scripture says, 'Any charges must be proven true by at least 2 or 3 witnesses.', ''

False claims to secret revelations and no witnesses, which fails his and Biblical standards.

Paul is a mess, taken up into heaven is obviously talking about himself, regardless it's the most ridiculous claim for a literal lowlife like Paul to make. He never knew anybody taken into heaven or recieved any revelations from God or Jesus.

Here he is making a background story to make his lies believable and setting himself up as a false prophet.

''I think I am not the least inferior to the chiefest apostle. ''

Says Paul, insecure and losing support, truly inferior in every way.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

TextYour opinion means nothing to me.

My post is a source of scholarship which i have given you. Debate the scholars if you may but you have not the intelligence to do so. I gave you the sources of understanding and what you do with that information is your own to use. As I pointed out to you before, I am a Nazarene of the order of James and not of your own own imagination. The Mashiach Yahusha was a Nazarene as He was in the flesh and known as Jesus. All else of your lack of knowledge is nothing but lies to deceive the ATS readers. You are not knowledgeable in what you think you are knowledgeable and you never debate with reliable and scholarly sources. You are phony to say the least.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

TextYour opinion means nothing to me.

My post is a source of scholarship which i have given you.

You are not a scholoar, and they are not necessary for the purpose of explaining what a book says as I can do that on my own.

More than a lot of sholarship has been dedicated to the subject of Paul and his troubles with the apostles though. Legitimate non Christian non biased scholarship and the general concesus is that Paul started a different movement that was later combined with the Jewish one and the Romans persecuted the Jewish Nazarenes and Ebionites out of existence. About the 5th century.

But that is beyond the scope of this thread I just wanted to let you know that I am familiar with scholarship.

This is a simple subject.

Paul DID call the "arch-apostles", "his Servants" meaning Satan who appears as an angel of light.

If your "scholars" deny that I don't consider them honest, no matter how much they know, because it is clear as day.

Debate the scholars if you may but you have not the intelligence to do so.

I have disagreed with scholars before because they were not being honest and I am intelligent enough to research subjects of interest as the books scholars read are not secret books, most of my favorite topics are in the public domain and online so I don't need to go to a University to learn what they know on a particular subject.

Scholars disagree with each other all the time so I don't think it is arrogant to disagree with one, which I do often.

You are too dependent on other people doing research you should be doing and are talking like scholars don't encourage individuals to research things and come to a conclusion on their own.

Which means you are probably using Christian "scholars" who are biased because they are Christians and even still some know Paul was no friend of the apostles.

I gave you the sources of understanding and what you do with that information is your own to use. As I pointed out to you before, I am a Nazarene of the order of James and not of your own own imagination. The Mashiach Yahusha was a Nazarene as He was in the flesh and known as Jesus. All else of your lack of knowledge is nothing but lies to deceive the ATS readers. You are not knowledgeable in what you think you are knowledgeable and you never debate with reliable and scholarly sources. You are phony to say the least.

You are just venting, I hope you feel better.

Paul still called the apostles Satan's servants.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Once again out of context gibberish and trash

why even try and use a Bible you don't believe what it says anyway. You only use it to bolster your Opinions. which is nothing more than that opinions not facts.

a reply to: Seede

Seed don't feed this troll.

Paul wasn't even speaking about the 11 plus the one.

this is all nonsense from person who does to believe any version of the Bible let alone the preserved words of God. you can't debate a book that he doesn't even believe in the least is true.


Just let him go on in the end he will be banned again.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Seede

Seed don't feed this troll.

Paul wasn't even speaking about the 11 plus the one.

That is deliberate misrepresentation of the spirit and letter of that verse.

Other than saying he was not talking about them, despite the obvious fact he was, do you have an offer of proof?

What "counterfeit apostles of Christ" was he talking about at a time when the religion was unrecorded outside of Paul's epistles and the proto-gospels Paul knew nothing of?

What Church historian provides this information?

this is all nonsense from person who does to believe any version of the Bible let alone the preserved words of God. you can't debate a book that he doesn't even believe in the least is true.

Regardless of my beliefs it is not nonsense, you are just being dismissive because you are biased by being a Christian.

"Nonsense" is therefore a compliment because you don't have a factual rebuttal.

Just let him go on in the end he will be banned again.

I think you are a little confused pal.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Once again out of context gibberish and trash

why even try and use a Bible you don't believe what it says anyway. You only use it to bolster your Opinions. which is nothing more than that opinions not facts.

No, I provided context as well as chapter and verse and nobody can do any more than talk trash and say things like "out of context" which is dishonest because it was not out of context and I provided an accurate summary of the context before or after the quote.

I'd say nice try but I would not be telling the truth as it was a complaint and false accusation and not a nice try, it was terrible and ineffective.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

no you created a context with your inserted opinion.

But still you don't believe the word of Good anyway so why quote or use it, unless you have an agenda to lead people to Islam.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

no you created a context with your inserted opinion.

But still you don't believe the word of Good anyway so why quote or use it, unless you have an agenda to lead people to Islam.

Islam has never been a factor and has nothing to do with the thread topic.

Neither does my belief.

I DIDN'T take anything out of context and commenting on what happened and was written is not opinion or taking out of context.

The fact is he WAS talking about the apostles IN CONTEXT and if you could prove otherwise you would, you can not.

"Out of context", "Opinion" are the absolute best you can do. You can not supply the "real" context because it is what I said and only makes my argument stronger as it is more insults and specifically about the apostles.