Does Communism make people more disciplined?

One time when I was in college we had a discussion about discipline in the East compared to discipline in the west.

The idea was that Eastern people were more disciplined but also more depersonalized. Western countries have more freedom of expression but less discipline.

So I have this video to see maybe if this is true? It's the Chinese military hell march.

I'd also like to note that guys like Jackie Chan have commented that it's necessary for China to be communist in order for their country to function.


So what do you think?

More individuality = less discipline
Less individuality = more discipline?

Naa

you cant show videos of chinese events and think that is somehow reflective of the man on the street. Every c-vlogger discusses the general chaos of the streets as the norm..loud, drunk, obnoxious, scamming, etc. All is represented in spades in China on any given street. Chinese tourists are known to be disorderly and often disrespectful, etc.

Now, look across the water to their neighbor Japan..a free society that has a culture of discipline taught to them as children. They are the shining global example of discipline, accountability (to a degree..also saving face can interfere here), and rigid work ethic...and that is a extremely free country.

Culture therefore seems to be the most important factor in discussing discipline and order

I think the bigger difference between east and west is culture, a majority of eastern countries that may or may not be communist have had very little migration and as such the culture has not been swayed by external wants as what has happened in say Europe and the USA to some respect. I say this as if a "minority" group gets away with "absurd" wants then it is a knock on effect until you have a very self entitled population regardless of faith or thinking.

I spend months at a time in Asia and currently live and work in London UK, Basically the west seems to take the worst of outside cultures and it slowly gets flooded into the "norm" where as the Asian cultures have a far more straight base line that they have stuck to for many many years..

The cultural difference between say Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam and China to say UK, USA the rest of Europe is vast when you can view it regularly.

I think Communist v Capitalist is a very small amount to the way the people really are, take people from many different cultures and they bring the worst of that culture, you will see a communist country that is a sh1t hole.. The rule does not change just because it is "communist"...

Thailand for me has the most disciplined people I have ever come to contact with and they are of Buddhist faith with a constitutional monarchy..


Juts my own personal observation...

RA

a reply to: supermilkman
The distinctions betweeen societies with and without discipline are not ethnically based and are not permanent.
Discipline is something which can be created only through sustained social effort, and it sometmes collapses quite easily.

Do you know the last story in Kipling's Jungle Book, "Her Majesty's servants"?
After a grand military review, there occurs this dialogue;

Then I heard an old grizzled, long-haired Central Asian chief, who had come down with the Amir, asking questions of a native officer.
"Now", said he, "in what manner was this wonderful thing done?"
Amd the officer answered "There was an order, and they obeyed... Mule, horse, elephant, or bullock, he obeys his driver, and the driver his sergeant, and the sergeant his lieutenant, and the lieutenant his captain, and the captain his major, and the major his colonel, and the colonel his brigadier commanding three regiments, and the brigadier his general, who obeys the Viceroy,who is the servant of the Empress. Thus it is done".
"Would it were so in Afghanistan!" said the chief; "for there we obey only our own wills".
"And for that reason", said the native officer, twirling his moustache, "your Amir whom you do not obey must come here and take orders from our Viceroy".

On that basis, it would be possible to reverse the OP and talk about the disciplined West and the undisciplined East. But again, the distinction would be only temporary.

I think communism leads to hunger rather than discipline.
Hunger in many forms.
I do not recognize discipline in most Chinese people. They rarely understand the notion of etiquette or common sense of knowing how to act, though they are not alone. With discipline comes manners in my opinion. Manners escapes them.
When freedom is stifled you will always hunger for it.

a reply to: supermilkman

WOWZERS!

That really was something to watch.

In fairness, they at least didn't have them dong the full goosestep, that was more of a 'moderate' step about the same as the US military if I'm not mistaken (which apparently by that video alone their entire military is modeled after).

And for those of you wondering, that tune during that first main marching section is actually the theme music from Command & Conquer 2: Red Alert, an old RTS game, one of the last proper video games I truly played to death to god status (so many moons ago).

Now, to the point: YES! Authoritarianism does make for more disciplined peoples, and Communism is society wide Total Authoritarianism.

And every military I know about is also totally authoritarian, meaning you will basically always get those kinds of results as in that dramatic display of robotized human beings like in the video there. Hey it works for a military, why not make everyone into authoritarian cogs in the machine, I suppose some people strive for. Me? F that and F them who think I need to be a cog in the machine.

"Mario Savio on the operation of the machine":

and here goes some kick arse metal to that tune:

"Fear Factory - Timelessness "

a reply to: supermilkman

Those who have the most discipline as part of their routine, party the hardest when they are in their off time. This is a general rule, which, while there are some limited exceptions, hold true far more often than not.

Discipline has nothing to do with it. I import products from many different Chinese companies. I've been to Beijing. China is a completely different country than the USA. In China, it's not about branding. It's not about making a profit. I've worked with separate companies that share intellectual property between factories.

In China, it's all about maximum employment.

I was watching some guys do building construction. They did not have a crane lifting cement to the 3rd floor. Instead, they had 3 guys with shovels. One guy would shovel the cement to the first floor. A second guy would shovel cement to the 2nd floor. and 3rd guy would shovel cement to the 3rd floor.

Beijing is 50 miles square (about the width of New Jersey). Everywhere we went in Beijing was like Time Square on New Years Eve. There are a lot of Chinese people in China! At one point I just came to the conclusion there's just no way to compete with these people. I was in market and near a highway over pass. Underneath the over pass was hand made Chinese lanterns. I count 7 deep by 100. That was 700 hand made lanterns for one under part of an over pass.

Besides not spending any money on R&D or branding, the Chinese government maximizing employment by pegging the Yuan to the dollar 6 to 1. This means a CEO gets 6 Chinese workers for every 1 American worker. We used to buy electric motors from Germany. We can buy the same motor with better quality from China for only $20. We buy an electric speed controller from a company in Kansas for $40. I can buy the same electronic speed controller from China for only $8.

You just can't compete with the Chinese. And if you don't buy from China and lower your pricing your competitors will put you out of business. Life is tough. Suck it America!

P.S. Another interesting thing about China there are no police in Beijing. There are military barracks and every morning the soldiers march out and take positions on different street corners. Maybe why China has the largest army in the world is because they have no police. Maybe it's not so large if you take that into account. And the craziest thing about Beijing are the public toilets! Google it because it's just unbelievable!

a reply to: supermilkman

No, it doesn't. On the contrary, it makes you unruly, disorderly and insubordinate.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
Naa

you cant show videos of chinese events and think that is somehow reflective of the man on the street. Every c-vlogger discusses the general chaos of the streets as the norm..loud, drunk, obnoxious, scamming, etc. All is represented in spades in China on any given street. Chinese tourists are known to be disorderly and often disrespectful, etc.

Now, look across the water to their neighbor Japan..a free society that has a culture of discipline taught to them as children. They are the shining global example of discipline, accountability (to a degree..also saving face can interfere here), and rigid work ethic...and that is a extremely free country.

Culture therefore seems to be the most important factor in discussing discipline and order

Most public disorderly conduct is from drug addicts, alcoholics, and unemployed. The lower class always have more issues due to unemployment (usually.)

I'm talking more from a work/school environment perspective: does draconian-style discipline make better workers and students?

originally posted by: slider1982
I think the bigger difference between east and west is culture, a majority of eastern countries that may or may not be communist have had very little migration and as such the culture has not been swayed by external wants as what has happened in say Europe and the USA to some respect. I say this as if a "minority" group gets away with "absurd" wants then it is a knock on effect until you have a very self entitled population regardless of faith or thinking.

I spend months at a time in Asia and currently live and work in London UK, Basically the west seems to take the worst of outside cultures and it slowly gets flooded into the "norm" where as the Asian cultures have a far more straight base line that they have stuck to for many many years..

The cultural difference between say Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam and China to say UK, USA the rest of Europe is vast when you can view it regularly.

I think Communist v Capitalist is a very small amount to the way the people really are, take people from many different cultures and they bring the worst of that culture, you will see a communist country that is a sh1t hole.. The rule does not change just because it is "communist"...

Thailand for me has the most disciplined people I have ever come to contact with and they are of Buddhist faith with a constitutional monarchy..


Juts my own personal observation...

RA

Yes, some have said that the multiculturalism in western countries is one of the main contributors to crime. Some believe that homogenuous cultures have more solidarity.

But like you said every culture has it's ups and downs. Some more than others.

I've studied countries and their fiscal policies and came to the conclusion that republics have been rated to be more successful. With republics there is more structure, obedience to the law etc it seems. Countries that scored lower on HDI (human development index) had more crime overall regardless of fiscal policy or political party.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: supermilkman

Those who have the most discipline as part of their routine, party the hardest when they are in their off time. This is a general rule, which, while there are some limited exceptions, hold true far more often than not.

I disagree. Employers regularly fire people that have drinking and drug problems. Many people that lease homes/apartment complexes don't want smokers since they not only damage the interior but also ramp up in crime in an area.

Bringing drugs into neighborhoods lowers market value. You will hear complaints from neighbors of loud noise, unsavory people roaming around the streets etc.

Also JAG is kicking out alcoholics in the military that have behavioral problems. Partying doesn't make better workers. If anything it's make them flakey and more prone to starting problems.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Discipline has nothing to do with it. I import products from many different Chinese companies. I've been to Beijing. China is a completely different country than the USA. In China, it's not about branding. It's not about making a profit. I've worked with separate companies that share intellectual property between factories.

In China, it's all about maximum employment.

I was watching some guys do building construction. They did not have a crane lifting cement to the 3rd floor. Instead, they had 3 guys with shovels. One guy would shovel the cement to the first floor. A second guy would shovel cement to the 2nd floor. and 3rd guy would shovel cement to the 3rd floor.

Beijing is 50 miles square (about the width of New Jersey). Everywhere we went in Beijing was like Time Square on New Years Eve. There are a lot of Chinese people in China! At one point I just came to the conclusion there's just no way to compete with these people. I was in market and near a highway over pass. Underneath the over pass was hand made Chinese lanterns. I count 7 deep by 100. That was 700 hand made lanterns for one under part of an over pass.

Besides not spending any money on R&D or branding, the Chinese government maximizing employment by pegging the Yuan to the dollar 6 to 1. This means a CEO gets 6 Chinese workers for every 1 American worker. We used to buy electric motors from Germany. We can buy the same motor with better quality from China for only $20. We buy an electric speed controller from a company in Kansas for $40. I can buy the same electronic speed controller from China for only $8.

You just can't compete with the Chinese. And if you don't buy from China and lower your pricing your competitors will put you out of business. Life is tough. Suck it America!

P.S. Another interesting thing about China there are no police in Beijing. There are military barracks and every morning the soldiers march out and take positions on different street corners. Maybe why China has the largest army in the world is because they have no police. Maybe it's not so large if you take that into account. And the craziest thing about Beijing are the public toilets! Google it because it's just unbelievable!

Exactly. They have overall better work ethic. You can see how far they have came. They also made the world's biggest mall.

As for pricing goes of course you can't beat them because the USD has more buying power. They'll work harder than your America, work longer hours, make better products, for far less money.

Regardless of having a police force (they should have one) you can still see the uniformity in their military. I'd say their military has surpassed ours in terms of cohesion. Guys are coming out fat in American boot camps. There used to be a running joke that you will never see a fat Marine but now you're starting to see those.

And it's not a pissing contest either, it's just something that I have noticed over the years is that the Chinese are kind of surpassing everyone. There's a report that they will be the world's leading super power by 2030.

Another issue is the high likelihood of going to war with them. Countries that succumbed to sanctions usually went to war with each other. We're also sending troops to Russia and there is conflict over the South China Sea.

I don't want it to happen but I see a major world war between US, England, Scandinavia, Russia, China, and other third world countries getting involved in major conflicts.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Wait, China does have a police. It's called the Chinese People's Armed Police Force. It works alongside the ground forces of the PLA (Chinese People's Liberation Army.)

originally posted by: IgnoranceIsntBlisss
a reply to: supermilkman

WOWZERS!

That really was something to watch.

In fairness, they at least didn't have them dong the full goosestep, that was more of a 'moderate' step about the same as the US military if I'm not mistaken (which apparently by that video alone their entire military is modeled after).

And for those of you wondering, that tune during that first main marching section is actually the theme music from Command & Conquer 2: Red Alert, an old RTS game, one of the last proper video games I truly played to death to god status (so many moons ago).

Now, to the point: YES! Authoritarianism does make for more disciplined peoples, and Communism is society wide Total Authoritarianism.

And every military I know about is also totally authoritarian, meaning you will basically always get those kinds of results as in that dramatic display of robotized human beings like in the video there. Hey it works for a military, why not make everyone into authoritarian cogs in the machine, I suppose some people strive for. Me? F that and F them who think I need to be a cog in the machine.

"Mario Savio on the operation of the machine":

and here goes some kick arse metal to that tune:

"Fear Factory - Timelessness "

Yeah, I guess militaries in general are more strict to begin with. You'll probably see this with every military.

originally posted by: VinylTyrant
I think communism leads to hunger rather than discipline.
Hunger in many forms.
I do not recognize discipline in most Chinese people. They rarely understand the notion of etiquette or common sense of knowing how to act, though they are not alone. With discipline comes manners in my opinion. Manners escapes them.
When freedom is stifled you will always hunger for it.

Philosopher Laozi believes controlling people leads to more rebellion. The person is more than likely going to go against authority if they keep being told what to do. Laozi believed that people learn naturally on their own and come to conclusions based on life experience.

Confucious believed in collectivism and being obedient to authority. He believed the masses should support the military, structure, the laws.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: supermilkman
The distinctions betweeen societies with and without discipline are not ethnically based and are not permanent.
Discipline is something which can be created only through sustained social effort, and it sometmes collapses quite easily.

Do you know the last story in Kipling's Jungle Book, "Her Majesty's servants"?
After a grand military review, there occurs this dialogue;

Then I heard an old grizzled, long-haired Central Asian chief, who had come down with the Amir, asking questions of a native officer.
"Now", said he, "in what manner was this wonderful thing done?"
Amd the officer answered "There was an order, and they obeyed... Mule, horse, elephant, or bullock, he obeys his driver, and the driver his sergeant, and the sergeant his lieutenant, and the lieutenant his captain, and the captain his major, and the major his colonel, and the colonel his brigadier commanding three regiments, and the brigadier his general, who obeys the Viceroy,who is the servant of the Empress. Thus it is done".
"Would it were so in Afghanistan!" said the chief; "for there we obey only our own wills".
"And for that reason", said the native officer, twirling his moustache, "your Amir whom you do not obey must come here and take orders from our Viceroy".

On that basis, it would be possible to reverse the OP and talk about the disciplined West and the undisciplined East. But again, the distinction would be only temporary.

So no social support means less discipline? So without social support a lot of people in society would fall between the cracks? I suppose since they're neglected they don't have any discipline?

To me this makes sense. I've heard plenty of stories where guys complained being tired all the time in the military and wanted their freedom but the second they were discharged and put back to civilian life some complained life was too difficult for them to manage. Some of these guys don't know how to take care of themselves whereas before they were told what to do.

If one gets benefits and a retirement then there's a better chance for survival (even employment) but there are many homeless vets who simply don't know what to do on their own.

a reply to: supermilkman

You mentioned JAG...

The sorts of people that JAG have sway over, know how to party without getting crap for it. The reason? They are disciplined about it!

a reply to: TrueBrit

Believe me, there's been too many incidents lately. Many have curfews as a matter of fact.

a reply to: supermilkman

And yet shore leave will still be a time of much debauchery, silliness, wanton drunkenness and misbehaviour, and the reason for that is simple. The more compressed you force a person to be, the louder and crazier they will be when they are not under the watchful gaze of their superiors. This will ALWAYS be the case, it will NEVER be any different on the whole. All that will change is how fast a service person goes from employment to unemployment and how often that happens, not whether they party or whether they do not.