Apparent paradox in the garden of eden

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
What I find contradictory is that the bible which is basically pro god propaganda, in my opinion makes the devil look like the good guy.

Exactly. If you were told to read the bible without any outside influence or bias, you would think "god" the antagonist and Satan as the protagonist. Jesus seems to be redeeming his father's sins more than humanity's.

Man is the antagonist and satan the influencer, God is the judge
You are blaming the judge for carrying out the sentence, not the perpetrator and enabler.

You are just transferring blame to someone else, seems God in this case.

No.

That god is to blame for nearly every death in the bible. Children being eaten by bears, babies being dashed against stones, families drowned and put to the sword, countless innocent women being raped, etc etc. The worst thing Satan did was call the god's bluff with Job.

A judge? Sure. But that doesn't absolve him of his horrors. A judge that makes talking back to your parents punishable by death or make rape victims marry their rapists... that's still an evil bastard.

Satan told the truth and tried to enlighten humanity at every turn, to the god's chagrin.

Humanity is simply the innocent bystander in that whole mess.

Totally agree with you.

a reply to: Abysha

Not everything has to be spelled out. You want to blame God for everything, based on a book written by imperfect men, without considering the many unknown factors. Yeah there's a lot of wisdom and knowledge in the sacred texts, but they are not perfect, and they are corrupted by men, which you seem to relish. The garden of Eden was paradise, and it could have remained that way, without all of the negative stuff that exists, but then most people probably wouldn't exist either. Thinking of timelines, it's interesting to consider how different the world would be if something was changed, like if WW2 never happened, you probably wouldn't have been born.

originally posted by: Paradeox
a reply to: Abysha

Not everything has to be spelled out. You want to blame God for everything, based on a book written by imperfect men, without considering the many unknown factors. Yeah there's a lot of wisdom and knowledge in the sacred texts, but they are not perfect, and they are corrupted by men, which you seem to relish. The garden of Eden was paradise, and it could have remained that way, without all of the negative stuff that exists, but then most people probably wouldn't exist either. Thinking of timelines, it's interesting to consider how different the world would be if something was changed, like if WW2 never happened, you probably wouldn't have been born.

I don't blame that god for anything because I don't believe in him. I'm suspending my disbelief for a bit to discuss a work of mythology. And in that work, the OT god was a raving lunatic.

a reply to: Mandy555

"Just watching some ancient aliens nonsense. About demons."

Read your post and wondered why you consider the possibility of aliens in the Garden of Eden nonsense? We have a great story where God created man (Adam) from clay and also created Adams first wife (Lilith) from clay at the same time. Lilith was an early feminist which ended in the first divorce....Lilith was turned into a demon and cast out to live at night. Eve was then created from Adam's rib and they lived in the garden until that casting out business....was the God of our Bible a nebulous being somewhere in heaven or was it possibly a higher intelligence that needed a work force on planet Earth and could splice genes? The question is not how or why something happened ....it's merely a question of having faith that the Bible is God's word. We are not supposed to understand until we are....

a reply to: Mandy555
You create this paradox by assuming that the phrase "knowing good and evil" means "knowing that good and evil exist".
If you drop that assumption, and regard it as a Hebraism for "knowing good from evil", then the paradox disappears.
It means making this assessment for themselves instead of taking God's word for it.
Before taking the fruit, their attitude is "Eating the fruit is a bad thing to do, because God says so".
The act of taking the fruit IS the attitude "WE say that eating the fruit is NOT a bad thing to do".

I addressed this question in one of my older threads;

Good and evil; if they know good AND evil, side by side, that implies that they know them as distinct.
Their “knowledge” relates to the boundary line between them.
In fact it comes close to knowing good FROM evil.
So this will be the kind of knowledge that makes judgements on the rightness and wrongness of things, though it need not be limited to moral judgements.

That explains what is meant by the previous phrase, “You will be like God”.
They will be like God in that they “know good and evil”.
So this points to God as the one who determines what is right or wrong.
If they do this for themselves, they are imitating one of his features, and putting themselves in his place.

The tree of what knowledge?

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
What I find contradictory is that the bible which is basically pro god propaganda, in my opinion makes the devil look like the good guy.

Exactly. If you were told to read the bible without any outside influence or bias, you would think "god" the antagonist and Satan as the protagonist. Jesus seems to be redeeming his father's sins more than humanity's.

Lets hope these words you typed do not get back to God. This is above and beyond Blasphemy. IMO these words are enough to insult and bring anger.....and death. I don't believe heaven is going to allow this type of arrogance go unpunished. You see.... the Father forgives BUT it is SON that will be punishing his Father's enemies.

For some reason many people think Jesus has ONLY one personality....WRONG. This time he will not use a belt like he did in the temple.

How is the family and their health? What about your health and good fortunes?

I will ask you again in the next few months about your loved ones and you and lets see..... and lets compare notes as to how you have hit rock bottom.... if you are not already there.

originally posted by: NarcolepticBuddha
a reply to: Mandy555

Genesis 2:17

'from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat'

And we all saw how THAT prediction panned out!
That wasn't the first hint, either! *__-

a reply to: Mandy555

How could Adam and Eve know it was wrong to eat form the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, until they had eaten of it?

A better question would have been "Why did they ate, after God forbade them to do so ?". The answer is because the serpent told them in a nutshell " Look, God lied. You are not going to die if you eat from it, but you will be like God knowing good and evil." That is the reason why they ate from the tree of good and evil. They wanted to be like God. Similar to what we read in Isaiah 14:14 :

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Peace

Its not a paradox. God told Adam not to eat of the Tree. This doesn't HAVE to mean there is implied anything. Did God have to tell Adam not to eat rocks or twigs? No. Did God have to tell Adam not to have sex with the animals since there was no woman? No. Did God have to tell Adam not to jump in the water and inhale it like air? No.

Do you see what im getting at?

Whether or not God told Adam not to do something doesnt mean Adam was a total retard. Innocent yes, but not stupid. If Adam knew he couldnt breathe water like a fish does that mean it wasn't a perfect paradise simply because there was a behavior which Adam could intuit was not "correct"?

I admit you ALMOST came up with a pretty good zinger.....but upon closer inspection the premise is flawed.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff
What I find contradictory is that the bible which is basically pro god propaganda, in my opinion makes the devil look like the good guy.

Exactly. If you were told to read the bible without any outside influence or bias, you would think "god" the antagonist and Satan as the protagonist. Jesus seems to be redeeming his father's sins more than humanity's.

Lets hope these words you typed do not get back to God. This is above and beyond Blasphemy. IMO these words are enough to insult and bring anger.....and death. I don't believe heaven is going to allow this type of arrogance go unpunished. You see.... the Father forgives BUT it is SON that will be punishing his Father's enemies.

For some reason many people think Jesus has ONLY one personality....WRONG. This time he will not use a belt like he did in the temple.

How is the family and their health? What about your health and good fortunes?

I will ask you again in the next few months about your loved ones and you and lets see..... and lets compare notes as to how you have hit rock bottom.... if you are not already there.

You people are precious. Jesus. Are you telling me that the bible actually paints your gods in a good light? That Satan committed atrocities worse than the Old Testament gods? Are you telling me that if you read the bible with no churchianity telling you what to believe, that you would still think "god" is on the side of good?

My family health and fortune are the best they've ever been, by the way. Full of love, compassion, generosity, and fearlessness. If anything bad befalls me at the hands of your cult, it will be the will of your cult, not your cult's gods.

I follow my own gods and they suit me just fine. Welcome to America.

Some of you need to read a little longer into Genesis before having a flawed opinion.
By eating the fruit death was surely introduced into Adam & Eve's future.
They did eventually die. So the truth was they will surely die yet their eyes would be "open" to judge. The serpent mixed a truth with a lie, conniving and deceitful as he was. Also, this led to their one son killing their other directly.
Cains ability to judge the situation caused his jealousy.

With great knowledge comes great resposibility. To now know the pain that comes with childbirth. To know sickness.
To know what it means to till the land to provide for yourself instead of having all you need provided. To have to protect yourself from wild beasts and subhumans that roamed the land.
It wasn't a punishment, you understand?
It was a consequence.
If you teach your son to stay away from gangs lest he surely die and he disobeys, it wasn't a punishment but a consequence you warned him of. What comes from gangs is a reality that leads to death or imprisonment.
Pandora box-like was the fruit. Once they experienced the power of the fruit there was no going back.
Makes perfect sense.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

There was a time I wasn't much of a believer and gave God little thought.
Experience is the best teacher. Sometimes people need that eye- opener to see.
Hopefully God allows them that time.
Its really the best feeling.

originally posted by: Mandy555
Just watching some ancient aliens nonsense. About demons.

Made me think.

How could Adam and Eve know it was wrong to eat form the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, until they had eaten of it?

Surely before that they didn't have knowledge of good and evil...
And therefore didn't know it was wrong...

"...and Adam knew his wife, Eve..."
"...and the two shall become one flesh..."

same word (to know), same implication -
it's about EXPERIENCING, not just knowing something mentally.
By partaking of the tree, Adam and Eve weren't just gaining knowledge of good and evil, they were actively choosing to make it a part of themselves.

originally posted by: Abysha

Take that thought a little further. The god of Genesis told them they would die. The serpent said they would gain knowledge. Who turned out to be telling them the truth and who lied?

Both right, really, I suppose

The foundation of blind obedience to a lying god started in the Garden of Eden. Weird, huh?

Weird indeed.

originally posted by: WilliamtheResolute
a reply to: Mandy555

"Just watching some ancient aliens nonsense. About demons."

Read your post and wondered why you consider the possibility of aliens in the Garden of Eden nonsense?

Actually, I meant the TV program. The whole series is unsupported speculation filled with !!!!!! And ??????

a reply to: WilliamtheResolute


Greetings-

I was going to mention Lilith and You pretty much covered it all.. Maybe I would've added the part where after Adamu told Lilith to wash His shirts and do the dishes, She told Him to "get bent" and ended up w/Samael.. I would've also mentioned the part where for years and years, Lilith would also get blamed for Men cheating on their Wives and for kids having wet dreams...

Ever wonder what happened to the Ms. Yin end of the Bible™, the Divine Feminine end? Lilith took that with Her, KNOWING those who also dealt w/religion™ would just sully the whole ball of wax...

Well done Will, well done.

Shalom Aleichem

originally posted by: Seed76
a reply to: Mandy555

How could Adam and Eve know it was wrong to eat form the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, until they had eaten of it?

A better question would have been "Why did they ate, after God forbade them to do so ?". The answer is because the serpent told them in a nutshell " Look, God lied. You are not going to die if you eat from it, but you will be like God knowing good and evil." That is the reason why they ate from the tree of good and evil. They wanted to be like God. Similar to what we read in Isaiah 14:14 :

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Peace

yeah but they hadn't been told what a lie was either.

a reply to: JimNasium

It wasn't an indictment, it was a recap...sorry if I didn't get the spin exactly to your liking......

originally posted by: PillarOfFire

originally posted by: Seed76
a reply to: Mandy555

How could Adam and Eve know it was wrong to eat form the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, until they had eaten of it?

A better question would have been "Why did they ate, after God forbade them to do so ?". The answer is because the serpent told them in a nutshell " Look, God lied. You are not going to die if you eat from it, but you will be like God knowing good and evil." That is the reason why they ate from the tree of good and evil. They wanted to be like God. Similar to what we read in Isaiah 14:14 :

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.'

Peace

yeah but they hadn't been told what a lie was either.

Exactly.

The bible clearly shows a huge change in their cognitive abilities at this moment.

Before the event they were innocent, like children or animals. They are not self aware.
Gen 2.25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Then something happens and there is a sudden huge change in their perception of themselves.
Gen 3.7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

They become able to feel such things as shame, guilt and fear.
Gen 3.10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

I would argue that before the event they would have been unable to understand the choices they were making. The threat of death means nothing to someone who does not comprehend death.

In one way this seems to be a shabby trick by God. An unfair expectation of his creation, especially (as has already been mentioned) god must have allowed the serpent into the garden to tempt them.

In another way it seems to be a mythologised story of self awareness. Something that must have happened to the hominid animal, and something that every child experiences as it grows toward adulthood.

originally posted by: Mandy555
Just watching some ancient aliens nonsense. About demons.

Made me think.

How could Adam and Eve know it was wrong to eat form the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, until they had eaten of it?

Surely before that they didn't have knowledge of good and evil...
And therefore didn't know it was wrong...

Just as you don't need to drink from the fountain of youth to have had youth .. nothing in the Bible indicates they had no knowledge that they should follow God's command. The tree simply expanded it .. as the tree of life was not required for them to have life, only expanded that life.