So What Is Trump Going To Do About The Shadow Government

You guys seem to be conflating two things here. The corporatist involvement in economic policy through their lobbying and other activities with what 'I' call the Shadow Government that runs our security, military, and intelligence apparatus.

Back in the 80's Japan was using their economic espionage on our corporations. It goes back to WWII. When we dissolved their military they in turn went to military economics. The conducted corporate espionage. I worked counter-espionage on the problem for corporations here for a couple of years to get them properly defended. So, at times we take on tasks we don't normally deal with.

However, the focus of the Shadow Government if you want to use the term isn't on domestic policy of the citizens and economy. It is on National Security and keeping things from the other side. Eroding their operations. At times things cross paths and that is when you have people like presidents realize how much power they have. Presidents are only a little higher that half of the security clearance levels. They have no ability to see into programs that are ongoing for decades.

a reply to: TrueAmericanJFK called the shadow government, Secret Socities, look what happened to him MLK, RFK, etc. "Drain the Swamp" it's going to happen ASAP Trump Sworn in. This is why everyone is scared to death of Trump. The World will be a better place with Trump. Whap happens here will cause a domino effect world wide.

originally posted by: spirit_horse
Presidents are only a little higher that half of the security clearance levels. They have no ability to see into programs that are ongoing for decades.

Well no wonder Trump doesn't know what's going on. And sounds like he never will, either. But evidently he knows something's not right, because so do we. And from the sounds of it, it's like a bunch of rouge agencies running around killing each other, and thousands of others in other countries, all at my expense. As Mr. Citizen USA, I did NOT authorize this. And neither did the US Constitution.

DRAIN... THE.... SWAMP.

originally posted by: TrueAmerican

originally posted by: spirit_horse
Presidents are only a little higher that half of the security clearance levels. They have no ability to see into programs that are ongoing for decades.

Well no wonder Trump doesn't know what's going on. And sounds like he never will, either. But evidently he knows something's not right, because so do we. And from the sounds of it, it's like a bunch of rouge agencies running around killing each other, and thousands of others in other countries, all at my expense. As Mr. Citizen USA, I did NOT authorize this. And neither did the US Constitution.

DRAIN... THE.... SWAMP.

We are a long way from the constitution today. No one asked if they should play by the rules. Imagine a pool game where when you took your shot by the rules and the other guy snatches the ball you aimed at off the table and puts it back. What then? When you give militaries and others the job of protecting the country and people, including WMD's and technology you can't exactly tie their hands to the rules of the constitution. Do you think Russia, China, Iran, N. Korea play by the rules? Not a chance.

That is part of the reason there is so much in the black. It isn't legal, but it is necessary is this world. And unfortunately individuals do deviate from the script and go rouge. Just like bad cops.

a reply to: MissionTruth

I am not American but it appears the fourth estate especially the Washington Post and CNN,a section of the CIA and the usual RINO'S such as Mc Cain have gone rogue and no longer support the Republic or its principles they are trying to set up Trump to arrest him for treason,create diplomatic messes and all manner if things I truly believe they will try something to stop the inauguration at that point we will see whether Trumps retired Generals have any sway-if they dont the Republic will be lost.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

You know the problem that was revealed after 911 of agencies not trusting each other? Well, now you can see where it all came from. I used to see agents of different agencies arrest each other and do unthinkable things only to find out they were supposed to be working for the same team later. The agencies will not disclose their agents to other agencies. In the field it creates quite a problem, but again it is necessary for security.

originally posted by: spirit_horse
When you give militaries and others the job of protecting the country and people, including WMD's and technology you can't exactly tie their hands to the rules of the constitution.

Oh yes, you can. And MUST. More than ever. Or else we find ourselves in the t-total cluster**** like what we are in.

That sounds like a line straight out of the NeoCon 101 playbook:
"It's just a goddamn piece of paper."

Yeah, the goddamn piece of paper that you were SUPPOSED to abide by and defend, no matter WHAT other interests attempted to get in the way. Well... They got in the way.

We drifted so far from the path, it is highly questionable if we will ever get back on it. Trump is the last and only hope. And I don't have high hopes.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

We all wish we were strict constitutionalists until something appears on the horizon that is outside the scope. Congress started the whole mess. Now they are just completely outside the constitution in my opinion on many matters. We swore the same oath to protect and defend the constitution. Unfortunately, the constitution doesn't apply outside our borders and the enemy doesn't recognize the constitution or our laws inside our borders.

I don't agree with the unconstitutional laws inside our country and there are plenty of them. I think most Americans when they talk unconstitutional are talking about the US Government's behavior, laws, and policies within the US. I don't think many would argue we have to remain steadfast to it in the face of the enemy.

Otherwise we would have been subverted and defeated long ago. I consider terrorists using our laws and policies against us to infiltrate the country a prime example.

ETA: Another that pisses me off is the ROE put on military forces fighting foreign wars. The enemy isn't abiding by these rules, why subject our own to having one hand tied behind their back? Is it because it isn't fair to the lesser enemy?

a reply to: spirit_horse

Which is why as part of his 100 day plan he ought to appoint Ron Paul as a special aid, to seek out and destroy every single unconstitutional law that has ever been passed. This includes the Patriot Act, and several of the provisions in the NDAA as well. If Trump did that I would literally cry real tears.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

A President can't do that. It would require Congress to repeal or replace those programs and laws.

a reply to: spirit_horse

No, the reason we follow rules is because we're supposedly civilized. If we use the same tactics as ISIS or other terrorists, then how are we any better than them? Their propaganda against us would be true.

Not to mention, it opens up other countries to being able to legally use the same tactics against us through the concept of "reciprocity". That's also why we make treaties to not use chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, etc.

I guess this is my point. There is this idea and use of Shadow Government that has become a political buzzword to blame the domestic governance we see, People can;t get laws and policies through their elected government and as a result want to blame the secret 'Shadow Government' for being the cause.

It is a misnomer. The Shadow Government I am talking about and what I believe it really is isn;t in the business of running domestic policy and the rules and laws we live under with one exception. That is when National Security is involved. Now that brings us to another problem with the co-opting of words and ideas for political narrative.

The governance has been using "National Security" proclamations to cover up their own illegal and unpopular machinations. It is easy to see how the 16+1 intel community get blamed for everything under the sun. Also, many technologies and practices originally developed to keep tabs on the enemy has been co-opted by domestic governance forces. All the surveillance and spy technology has come out of legitimate National Intelligence/military programs. These civilian agencies wet their pants at using them to control and subvert the population.

The biggest problem is with Congress, the courts, and the administration pushing unconstitutional laws and policies on the domestic population. The major intel community only used their powers to find foreign subversives, and the 'enemy' within. When Trump says Drain the Swamp, I see that as removing corruption. Like Congress using inside information to make themselves rich off of the markets. Using police powers to crack down on their political opponents. Even the IRS targeting conservative groups while working with liberal groups. These are the types of things most Americans think of when they think of government corruption.

No one like having their privacy invaded. However, what is the first thing they would do if they woke up and found their bank accounts drained and their life's work stolen by foreign powers? They would demand government action and usually at whatever cost. That is why I mentioned before about conflating different things. People have these uneducated ideas and really have no access to the big picture. We could go on, but I think that is the jist of it.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: TrueAmerican

A President can't do that. It would require Congress to repeal or replace those programs and laws.

True, but with a Republican majority in the House and Senate, it could be done. And Ron Paul has them all memorized by now. But considering Trump's desire to fight ISIS, something tells me that he won't be as concerned about these nasty bills as the average, civil liberties minded American is. Rather he will continue to use provisions in those and other bills to step up the war efforts and increase programs like torture and foreign renditions. This is going to be a mixed bag here coming up. I don't have any illusions.

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
a reply to: spirit_horse

No, the reason we follow rules is because we're supposedly civilized. If we use the same tactics as ISIS or other terrorists, then how are we any better than them? Their propaganda against us would be true.

Not to mention, it opens up other countries to being able to legally use the same tactics against us through the concept of "reciprocity". That's also why we make treaties to not use chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, etc.

There is much truth to what you say. However, there are other enemies in the world that do use those tactics. We can cherry pick things like chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, etc, but that is not what I was talking about really. The thread is based on Trump vs. the Shadow Government. What people blame things on or really perceive them to be is not necessarily the reality. We can be civilized to the civilized world. But, when uncivilized people and even civilized governments use their own military intelligence and other services to steal through espionage, kill, subvert, use dirty tricks, etc. are we just supposed to stand by and let it happen?

That goes to what I said about utopian ideas and the way we would like things to be. Some people are blind to these other realities. They simply do not posses the knowledge to understand what goes on. I suppose it might help if the explained everything to the public, but that isn't going to happen for several reasons. I don't like much of what goes on. I have said before if the citizens really knew what was going on and the levels of corruption and outright murder, etc. there would be a revolution tomorrow the government could not stop. They keep things close to the vest for that very reason.

originally posted by: TrueAmerican

originally posted by: spirit_horse
When you give militaries and others the job of protecting the country and people, including WMD's and technology you can't exactly tie their hands to the rules of the constitution.

Oh yes, you can. And MUST. More than ever. Or else we find ourselves in the t-total cluster**** like what we are in.

That sounds like a line straight out of the NeoCon 101 playbook:
"It's just a goddamn piece of paper."

Yeah, the goddamn piece of paper that you were SUPPOSED to abide by and defend, no matter WHAT other interests attempted to get in the way. Well... They got in the way.

We drifted so far from the path, it is highly questionable if we will ever get back on it. Trump is the last and only hope. And I don't have high hopes.

If you think today's reality is a cluster#, imagine the cluster# that would exist without wars for resources, banking bailouts, etc.

You would be living in a 3rd world #hole. We're not above nature yet. Animals, in nature, have to fight each other, kill each other, for resources. So do we. Don't be a slave to your primitive emotions of empathy.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

Learn how to live with "There" hand stuck where the Sun don't shine would be my guess.

End of the day Trump will do as he is told by the bankers and multimedia tycoons aka "They" just like everyone else who covets monies and power.

a reply to: RedDragon

We're not above nature but we do defy nature constantly without any problem. We create our own shelter, farm our own food, we divert water where we want it, we can plan for weather, we've even achieved flight on our own. So many areas we have created ways to advance us far beyond what nature has provided for us.

Now, that doesn't mean we're above nature by any means but we are not limited by it so much. Nature will always be ultimately in control of things and we should learn to work with nature more than we have but we've come a lot farther than any other animal we know of in getting past natures limitations for us.

We don't have to war for resources. We're just too stupid to learn how to cooperate with others in how to use them correctly. We've let our world population grow out of control with limited resources. We have greed and corruption everywhere. But if we weren't at war with ourselves we would have no enemies. We don't know how to live without enemies however. That is what we need to learn.

originally posted by: spirit_horse
a reply to: TrueAmerican

You know the problem that was revealed after 911 of agencies not trusting each other? Well, now you can see where it all came from. I used to see agents of different agencies arrest each other and do unthinkable things only to find out they were supposed to be working for the same team later. The agencies will not disclose their agents to other agencies. In the field it creates quite a problem, but again it is necessary for security.

Can I ask you some questions?
Let's pretend that 'security' is a little box everyone wants to grasp and hold onto with their life...

What is it that's inside the little box? What makes us act like we feel safe once we think we are in possession of it?

...and now that we feel we are in possession of it, why is everybody and their dog trying to take it away from us?
Does possessing the little box give us license to tread upon foreign soil? Or do we do it because we feel secure, that we can do no wrong?

What's in the little box?

I have a feeling I'm going to want to smack Aristotle if I could...

a reply to: TrueAmerican

We don't truly have any proof of a 'shadow government', however, if Trump suddenly goes the way of JFK we have some good empirical evidence that SOMETHING is indeed amiss.

Well, he can't repeal them on day one, which seems to be how he wants to deal with everything else.

He appears to take no notice of anything his advisers are telling him.

He will say or do whatever will keep his audience of the moment happy with him. All he wants is adulation. To this end, I suspect that the shadow government will get everything they ever wanted from Donald Trump, and will operate with impunity while he is President, with zero consequences for their actions.