How to Keep the NSA Out of Your Computer

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: brutus61

Unfortunately, mlppp and other meshing type systems allow for massive abuse without the use of serious encryption, you need something somewhat better than aes or ssl. I did small system like this in a town of about 1400 people, you find out how many criminals there are very quickly when banking information and nefarious chats can be accessed at each router/computer in the "mesh."

Cheers - Dave

Well that is instructive. Sounds like the size of my town. But seriously, stronger than AES or SSL? Guess I don't understand what's really involved with this. Whatever is involved, do you think it makes sense to plan for a contingency? Or are we just better off going back to snail mail and credit card swipers? Where to start? I want my town to be prepared (if possible) to continue to do business in case of...CME or some other condition leading to collapse of information infrastructure.

a reply to: Namdru

At that level its cash only really as you could never know when something could take out the communications between you and your card processor.

Being prepared can include adding multiple routes into the town but like everything it'll cost to run a secondary cable right next to the primary one and you can imagine drunken jeff hitting the pole and still taking out the entire comms system.

a reply to: Namdru

Certain agencies also use other systems that are not detectable at all. They operate on a 30 bit architecture. Your 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 but systems won't know they are accessing all the data thru embedded chips put on all communications and computer boards. Just and FYI. There is a big difference in civilian technology and the other side.

a reply to: spirit_horse

30 bit is not really possible as a data stream as you have either 16 or 32 unless you include error correction which means you're probably dragging something from the 1970's out of the cupboard.

By the time you're talking of compromised systems then its the NSA's TAO unit and thats a different kettle of fish.


It should be said that a system that can access 2^30 bits of data is a lot less able than one that can access 2^32 and any calculator can prove that along with any bored maths nerd.

I like the idea of a private mesh-net WiFi LAN network. However, try to get anyone else interested and get one started. Unless it becomes a real issue to some group, it will probably never get off the ground.

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: spirit_horse

30 bit is not really possible as a data stream as you have either 16 or 32 unless you include error correction which means you're probably dragging something from the 1970's out of the cupboard.

By the time you're talking of compromised systems then its the NSA's TAO unit and thats a different kettle of fish.


It should be said that a system that can access 2^30 bits of data is a lot less able than one that can access 2^32 and any calculator can prove that along with any bored maths nerd.

Yea it is out of my area of expertise. What do you mean can't be used as a data stream? The 30 bit systems were manufactured until 1992. They must have been able to communicate through data streams or what use would they be?

originally posted by: spirit_horse
a reply to: Namdru

Certain agencies also use other systems that are not detectable at all. They operate on a 30 bit architecture. Your 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 but systems won't know they are accessing all the data thru embedded chips put on all communications and computer boards. Just and FYI. There is a big difference in civilian technology and the other side.

That sounds like something I heard once from a guy I know who used to work (to use his terms) "for a partial anagram of the word 'USNAVY'". But regardless of the number of bits in a system architecture, any data stream is ipso facto detectable if it's on the internet, or on any other set of wires or waves even in analogue. So I wonder what you mean by "not detectable", i.e., not fingerprintable based on known methods? I mean even an unknown system has a fingerprint if you ping enough ports the right way on enough similar machines.

Just wondering what you're getting at exactly.

One thing is for sure, it is much more difficult to devise an exploit for a 30-bit machine if you don't have any of the software running on the machine and don't have a virtual machine to run it in. Beyond that I'm not sure what the advantage would be for the NSA et. al.

originally posted by: Namdru

originally posted by: bobs_uruncle
a reply to: brutus61

Unfortunately, mlppp and other meshing type systems allow for massive abuse without the use of serious encryption, you need something somewhat better than aes or ssl. I did small system like this in a town of about 1400 people, you find out how many criminals there are very quickly when banking information and nefarious chats can be accessed at each router/computer in the "mesh."

Cheers - Dave

Well that is instructive. Sounds like the size of my town. But seriously, stronger than AES or SSL? Guess I don't understand what's really involved with this. Whatever is involved, do you think it makes sense to plan for a contingency? Or are we just better off going back to snail mail and credit card swipers? Where to start? I want my town to be prepared (if possible) to continue to do business in case of...CME or some other condition leading to collapse of information infrastructure.

If you have people you can trust mlppp is the way to go, it provides excellent distributed network access through multiple ISPs and every additional mlppp router adds it's bandwidth. So if you had 10 routers on 10 different services at 100 Mb/s, theoretically, everyone on the network would have access to a time-shared 1gb/sec link. It does work and very well, but security is the issue. If there was a good commercially available end-to-end encryption system, say randomized key seeding at 1024 bit or greater using embedded processor firmware, that might work because transmission would be synchronous single point to point on each packet. You could have multiple feeds but each point with which you communicated would have its own key based on randomized public key generated by your hardware. The private keys are internally generated and swapped embedded in communicated data.

It's a complex system and the banks don't even have anything this secure. We did this for the military a while back to create highly secure communications. The idea however, for commercial and residential use is viable but the real problem is that end-to-end systems like this use about 5% additional bandwidth and can be made so secure that even the NSA wouldn't be able to decipher the communications. Therefore personal deployment would be heavily acted against by Intel community players. With the present ARM hardware though it could be done.

Cheers - Dave

originally posted by: brutus61
How to Keep the NSA Out of Your Computer

Only people with something to hide need fear the light of day!
Why do you think that the gov't needs so much secrecy?
Perhaps if you didn't download child porn, or bomb instructions, or the recipe for making meth...., you can live stress free regarding your computer?
Only corruption requires secrecy...

a reply to: Namdru

I meant detectable by your average person using available software. When it gets to sigint or commint, yes it is all detectable right now.

a reply to: brutus61

You could have multiple feeds but each point with which you communicated would have its own key based on randomized public key generated by your hardware. The private keys are internally generated and swapped embedded in communicated data.

It's a complex system and the banks don't even have anything this secure. We did this for the military a while back to create highly secure communications. The idea however, for commercial and residential use is viable but the real problem is that end-to-end systems like this use about 5% additional bandwidth and can be made so secure that even the NSA wouldn't be able to decipher the communications. Therefore personal deployment would be heavily acted against by Intel community players. With the present ARM hardware though it could be done.

Thank you Dave, that makes sense. 5% is not much, really. But inviting DDOS (or rather, other interference) by the big boys? Cost/benefit gets real high there. Thanks again!

a reply to: karl 12

Exactly. Though an air rifle is enough to be a bane to that form of communication in the hands of a decent marksman.

Pigeons were used in both world wars I believe.

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: brutus61
How to Keep the NSA Out of Your Computer

Only people with something to hide need fear the light of day!
Why do you think that the gov't needs so much secrecy?
Perhaps if you didn't download child porn, or bomb instructions, or the recipe for making meth...., you can live stress free regarding your computer?
Only corruption requires secrecy...

Yes. Why should we ever require privacy in our personal communications? For instance, if I were discussing a multi-billion dollar business deal that could make a savvy investor 20x on their return -- if they optioned stock at the right time -- surely no man in the middle, if he were working for the government or as a private individual -- would ever, ever consider misusing that information, would he?

No siree. Our government and neighbors are all scrupulously honest people who do not know how to use computers for personal profit. They are all stupid ignoramuses like us.

That is why there is no need for personal privacy, encryption, nor for constitutional guarantees of such. No siree. Not in America. We are just too virtuous by nature to require laws that protect individual rights.

a reply to: Namdru

If someone turned $60 into more than a billion there would be seven year olds that would notice.

a reply to: spirit_horse

6 bits per byte will give you a 30 bit system with a 5 byte word length and it was not unusual in the 'good old days' and normally it would of been 31 bits to allow for a parity bit to be included.

These days we're 8 bit per byte and such strange systems can seem exotic as I doubt they teach octal etc at uni.

If you connect your stuff is being recorded. If people think that any commercial level encryption will thwart the NSA they are delusional. Heck even nations cannot keep their data safe.

As noted, an air gaped computer in a faraday cage would do the trick but then again if you have such a system what exactly are you doing with it as a private citizen? You can have a killer system but unless you have tons of time to enter data and a method to disseminate that data to your audience you are kind of just talking to yourself.

What we can do however, is reintroduce the concept of padding. As many know, in cryptography you can add nonsense to any message to basically force the SIGINT guys to decrypt more stuff because the message is longer. The 'The World Wonders" is a famous example of padding from WWII en.wikipedia.org...

For our purposes, instead of trying to prevent the NSA from intercepting out texts etc, we would flood the database with basically garbage that would then in turn force them to keep upgrading systems to sort the data. They collect everything now, its sorting it out that is presenting them problems.

originally posted by: Maxatoria
a reply to: spirit_horse

6 bits per byte will give you a 30 bit system with a 5 byte word length and it was not unusual in the 'good old days' and normally it would of been 31 bits to allow for a parity bit to be included.

These days we're 8 bit per byte and such strange systems can seem exotic as I doubt they teach octal etc at uni.

Of course not. But I had to learn to count in base 5, 12 and all kinds of wierd s**t when I was a schoolkid. Going to a very exclusive private school with a fair number of spooky parents and children. Hmmm. Maybe that is why they made us?

a reply to: Slichter


In any given Urban area my Wi fi picks up about seven or eight ISP's...In a more dense urban environment probably more, so I could use any ones who were not mine. My tech savvy nephew just connects to who he feels like connecting to. Or You could have a second hand machine untraceable to you, and just go through public WI FI. It a bit of a joke when China makes all the I phones, you wouldn't have a clue what was loaded into its operating system, I bet all our friends at Langley, have a Chinese guy learning how to toss the pasta he makes his family when he goes home at night.

originally posted by: Namdru
Why should we ever require privacy in our personal communications?

I'm not saying that many do not 'require/expect' privacy in our personal communications, for whatever reason, I'm saying that such expectations will, inevitably, lead to suffering and disappointment.
I'm saying that all 'senses of security' are 'false senses of security'!
Life is simply less painful for those who have no such 'false' expectations.

...individual rights.

Perhaps you mean 'individual permissions'.
That which is 'bestowed' and can be rescinded at a moment's notice, is 'permission'. *__-

a reply to: FredT

Your point are definitely valid. But I can provide a little additional info that may help some folks.

I work in the clandestine IT world for a living. So I know a little about how to "hide" as well as the tools/methods used to track and find people.

The best advice I can give folks is to bury yourself *before* you do or say something that might pop up on someone's radar. If you wait until after, one of the more effective methods of tracking/locating someone is to follow their "burrow" trail once they attempt to hide.

It's an order of magnitude more difficult to find someone that is effectively "burrowed" in before they do something that hits the radar.

For instance, if someone were to try to track me based on my IP address they would find that I am in the Mount Laurel, NJ area today....lol. The day before, I was in Cheyenne, WY and the day before that, I was in Tucson, AZ. God bless me -

A while ago, I developed a simple program for my personal use that always runs before I launch anything that touches something beyond my local LAN/VPN. Actually, it runs at startup too - just in case. The parameters I set were simple...make sure my IP location shows that I am at least 100 miles from my actual location. I let the program choose my virtual location randomly. More fun that way , but you can choose a location if you'd like.

If anyone would like it and you run either a Win10 based system or a Linux based system. send me a PM and I'll be happy to send it to you or work out a way that you can D/L it. It's not very big, and it works very well. I'll do a quick and simple vetting beforehand to make sure you're not a bad actor. I'm sure you understand...

Beyond that, there are other methods that will help keep your info and/or your data harder to crack. But at the end of the day, if you are truly a PERSON of interest, our Intel folks can crack it. Period. But it can be resource intensive to do so, especially if you've taken some effective steps to make it difficult.

And if it requires a lot of work, they need multiple permissions to do so. They are not fond of doing that.

We live in a surveillance society. Most people have no idea to what degree that is true...