Autism Ears

Reading through this thread I have come to understand the OP's mind view and opinions. It is his learning from a country that has a different outlook with regards to research on this topic. The wording of inhuman, soulless and loveless has fired this thread. I would like to share some of my experiences. There has been many severely affected autistic children that function like a wild animal. Trying to exist in a world and body they cannot comprehend. To the extent of holding on to their faeces because they fear the sensation of releasing themselves. Eating anything around them, stones, leaves and mud because they are compelled to do so. Attacking anyone within distance with no comprehension of their acts. So would you say they are born inhuman or have learnt this behaviour from birth?
It is good to have a debate from all sides, even those ideas that shock our thinking.

originally posted by: sussy
There has been many severely affected autistic children that function like a wild animal. Trying to exist in a world and body they cannot comprehend.

There's extremism in everything.

But, the OP shot down that Autism fits under a large umbrella.

The OP has dictated Autism fits in one box.

a reply to: Annee

The OP is challenging our ideas on autism from a different view point. He is learning and discussing theories from outside the box. We on the other hand have emotional ties to the understanding of what autism means to us. As always I like to learn other peoples theories and interpretations. The OP is studying a different field to autism. It was the Autistic Ear that caught his attention and is applying his learning to discussing the western world's approach.

originally posted by: sussy
a reply to: Annee

The OP is challenging our ideas on autism from a different view point. He is learning and discussing theories from outside the box.

NO, the OP is telling us, who actually are Autistic, worked with Autistic, raised Autistics, that we're wrong.

I'm not speaking from emotions. I'm speaking from real life experience.

Not a textbook.

There seems to be an overlap between Narcissistic traits and some high functioning ASD traits, there is also some overlap between ADHD traits and the emotional damage done by being raised by a Narcissistic parent.

Narcissists (or those on the narcissistic spectrum) lack the ability to love others in a way that norms understand, although they seem to feel a large dose of constant self love. They also lack empathy.

I suspect that this is where the idea that "refrigerator mothers cause autism" originally came from. high functionnng non verbal adults on the ASD spectrum can feel and express empathy for others, although their methods of expressing feelings and empathy are often misunderstood by neurotypicals. There is much evidence of this on forums for those with ASD

It seems the majority of norms underderstand love to be something that someone else causes them to feel, when the truth is that love is not something that can be given or taken away by other human.

The more empathy a person feels, the easier they find it to feel love for others, even for those who have been deemed unlovable by cultural/social influences and expectations.

Im my humble unexperienced view, the problem with research that "proves" autistic people can not love, has little to do with the emotions of those on the spectrum but has everything to do with the neurotypical definition of love.

a reply to: sussy

From what ive read;" The intent of the AP was to create an emotional tie to a subject for its beneficial basic needs. SInce the subjects show clear emotional signs of providing security, it means there has been established an emotional tie to the AP "
One theory was handed that the AP can only learn emotions within a few years after that, the AP develops his own emotions outside of "human thinking" Since they learn in images and not relating text based materials so others can understand how a Subject feel.. In other words we have our whole live to learn feelings and how to relate to others, while the AP has only a few years..

Another theory, however this is my opinion;" Neurological trauma in the womb, and the hormone cortisol, i also believe that a Subject can develop AP for beneficial reasons outside of the womb, during the critical years of child and brain development. The dopaminergic pathways alters for survival instead of bringing a healthy human subject into existence."

A research paper showed correlation between outside benefactor and an increase in numbers with AP.. It didnt make any sense.. I just believe its the surrounding environment, and heighten cortisol levels..
--

Most of the AP will never have a functioning human life, they can however in a confined environment exceed any normal human capabilities. Moral question is/are;" Is it right to put an animal to display for food and water ? Like a Tiger who can do tricks in the Circus "
Teach them character traits of virtue and not to mimic a human subject, since the human subject is only after the reward the AP offers, clearly stated by subjects in the thread.

Its one of the saddest reads i ever done;" Human subjects without understanding uses AP for selfish motives. But in their mind they are offering help. "
--

One of my mentors often tell me, " You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink " not quite the same, since he often reference to the Bible.

a reply to: eccentriclady

I agree on some parts, and disagree on other parts;

Empathy is a spontaneous sharing of affect, provoked by witnessing and sympathizing with another's emotional state. In a way we mirror or mimic the emotional response that we would expect to feel in that condition or context, much like sympathy. Unlike personal distress, empathy is not characterized by aversion to another's emotional response. Additionally, empathizing with someone requires a distinctly sympathetic reaction where personal distress demands avoidance of distressing matters. This distinction is vital because empathy is associated with the moral emotion sympathy, or empathetic concern, and consequently also prosocial or altruistic action. Empathy leads to sympathy by definition unlike the over-aroused emotional response that turns into personal distress and causes a turning-away from another's distress.

Its about mimic and mirroring an emotional response. If you cant read someones face for an emotional expression, how can you relate to what the person actually feels.

a reply to: sussy

So would you say they are born inhuman or have learnt this behaviour from birth?

I believe its both, but i believe the mother of the AP is the problem and the research material all points to the mother.. Munchausen by proxy syndrome (MBPS)..

NO, the OP is telling us, who actually are Autistic, worked with Autistic, raised Autistics, that we're wrong.

I'm not speaking from emotions. I'm speaking from real life experience.

Not a textbook.

Im gonna go with thousands of objective real life cases in research papers instead of a single subjective one with a self interest.

Meaning a narrative in a life story is not something im gonna listen to,,

Humanity always comes first

a reply to: sussy

The OP is studying a different field to autism.

Correct, im studying " Emotional Neurological Trauma and memory. "

a reply to: tikbalang

I believe its both, but i believe the mother of the AP is the problem and the research material all points to the mother.. Munchausen by proxy syndrome (MBPS)..

This I can agree with and see it repeatedly within my work setting.

a reply to: tikbalang

There is a huge difference between feeling empathy inside and displaying the empathy you feel to others.

Personally I can distinguish between happy and sad or angry and calm by the expression on someones face. Other displayed emotions I am still learning to recognise with some slow success. This hampers my abilty to display empathy in many situations at the appropriate moment, in an appropriate way. However I can not recall a time in my life when I was unable to feel empathy if someone would use only words to explain how they felt.

Not being able to differentiate between facial expressions to enable one to access empathy is NOT the same as having no empathy. I just need a different method of delivery.

The ability to express the empathy felt is seperate from the emotion of it. Expressing empathy in an appropriate manner at an appropriate time is a learnt technique, some learn it earlier and more easily than others. Those who never learn to do this do not necessarily have an absence of the emotion.

It is clear there is a huge problem for research in this area as those who display a lack of empathy seem to be most often those who struggle to communicate and they are very people whos personal experiences would be most useful
in this debate. This is also hampered by the fact some on the spectrum understand words in a very different way to the majority, to the point that a conversation in english between a neuro typical and someone with ASD can sound as if they are speaking two different languages.

Although this makes sense to me on one level,

Empathy leads to sympathy by definition unlike the over-aroused emotional response that turns into personal distress and causes a turning-away from another's distress.

Would the same apply if I was walking down the street with my best friend, who was then set upon by a group of violent drunks and my fear was so all emcompassing that I hid while my best friend was beaten to a pulp? In this situation I would be emotionally hyper aroused but my reaction would be understood by many. My actions would display a lack of empathy as I had turned away from the personal distress of another, but my empathy for my friends pain and fear would have ensured that I practiced physical self protection.

I know a little boy with non verbal ASD, we do not meet up very often but when we do, although he doesn't make eye contact and he quickly gets bored of my company, the beaming smile on his face when he first hears my voice tells me that he definitely feels some type of emotional attatchment to me. Its the same beaming smile that I saw when I told him I would dearly love to hear his voice saying "i love you eccentric lady". It is clear that he feels positive emotions for some that do not play a caretaking role, to put it bluntly he seems able to have feelings towards people who he has no use for, those who bring him nothing but themselves. It is also worth noting here that so far he does not have melt downs/over aroused emotional responses in the main.

There is still much for us all to learn about ASD.

a reply to: eccentriclady

I enjoyed reading your post.
Lets consider an ASD at birth, where the senses are vivid for survival. Any ASD child can have anyone, or, all of the senses heightened. Sound, smell, sight, taste and touch. These might physically be hurtful or become a pleasure. Then how does an ASD develop, dealing with these physical dysfunctions? Then as they grow, try to understand what's being asked of them to function in a home, school, work setting. Reading emotions and dealing with feelings they have no understanding of the signals given. Like any animal [ which we are] survival comes first, then processing, then learning and then deciphering the environment they grow in.

I was busy writing a reply which vanished in an instant, before I could post.
When my frustration has died down I will rewrite it. apologies.



a reply to: sussy

a reply to: tikbalang

Yeah, I can definitely see that, but we must remember that the "Autism Spectrum" isn't exactly a linear scale that goes from 0-100, so we must also remember that different things affect different autistic individuals in (often times very) different ways.

For example, my son is one of the few children with Asperger's or autism that my psychologist had ever encountered that could understand and fluently use sarcasm, but at the same time, he can also be very literal is certain aspects of life where sarcasm isn't appropriate.

The same goes with his issue with overwhelming noise (and light)--it's not a constant issue, and sometimes he can handle it, as long as there is an "escape." If he has something on which he can hyper-focus (like a tablet, or when he's doing his parkour in a noisy, crowded parkour/gymnastics building), he can handle it all just fine. But when we expect him to participate in a conversation or activity in which he doesn't want to invest his full attention, that's when the anxiety and the inability to function "normally" comes into play.

This is why we homeschool him, and also why we feel pretty terrible about his younger years (third grade and younger), because we didn't understand that he had this disorder, nor how to properly respond to it. He would get so anxious waiting for the school bus that he would feel like he was going to throw up. He hated being in class because he could grasp the concept of raising his hand before speaking, or wasn't able to refrain from getting out of his seat (anxiety coupled with his psychologist-diagnosed ADHD). His grades would slip because he'd forget to turn in homework, even if the teacher was at the door asking for it when he walked in. He couldn't stop from touching everything, including other classmates, because of his sensory issues, and he would get in trouble for that, too. He would come home nearly in tears, if not actually in tears, and all that we could do was think that he was just being purposefully defiant and talk to him about it constantly, which the occasional punishment here and there in response to the behavior.

It's a tough thing on a parent when they realize that they have been punishing their child for something that they truly cannot stop themselves from doing, and I'm with--I do believe that modern society, with all of the bright lights and screen and noise and increasing demands on children to conform or become outcasts has a major effect on autistic children, but I don't see it as necessarily being a catalyst to developing the disorder (although I'm sure I could entertain the idea if I considered it more).

In any event, modern society is terrible for autistic children. I don't really think that autism is much more widespread than hundreds of years ago, I just think that ways that society has changed (more sedentary, more distractions, faster pace, much less exposure to nature, etc.) has amplified the symptoms and caused it to be much more recognizable.

Sorry for the late reply--I hope that you have a Happy New Year.

originally posted by: Annee
Mine outgrew the noise sensory overload - - and hair sensitivity. He freaked at the air dryers in restrooms. Always fun to have a toddler scream because you wash his hair.

Yes, my son has outgrown that one as well, but he used to HATE the sound of those, especially when they came out with those vortex-style air dryers that are louder than a landing airplane (and we know because we live near an airport). I can't even stand those things.

It took a full hour today to get through one page of math because he doesn't like math. Trying to get him to understand if you focus and stay focused til something is done, then you are free.

If you're interested in trying something, our son used to hate math as well--like, it would trigger immediate defiance and anxiety when my wife (homeschooling) would say that it was time to do it. And it sounds like it was a similar issue--hanging on to the focus long enough to get through a problem and have the light bulb go on in his brain to realize that he could do it.

Then my wife realized that he has (undiagnosed, but apparent) dysgraphia. It is very hard for him to write things down on paper and focus on the math problem at the same time. As it turns out, I started going over the math with him on a white board that we have, and suddenly things started getting easier for him--it was the WAY that he was having to write out the math problems with a pencil on paper that was causing the issue. Once he was able to use a larger writing utensil (dry-erase marker) and write on a smoother surface (white board), writing out the problems because a background issue that allowed him to focus on the problem instead of the challenge of writing it out.

I don't know if your son has writing problems, but if so, try giving him a small white board with a dry-erase marker and see if that makes doing the math easier for him. It's worth a try, and now my son flies through math without much issue at all--hell, he basically teaches himself the math via an online program, and all my wife has to do is check his work and occasionally address small issues. It's been a life-saver. Hopefully this might work for you, too.

Yes, a lot of kids are like this, but its just more so with Autism Spectrum. He's a creative story teller and he never stopped talking through the whole hour of math. It's like taking a magic carpet ride with a calculator that doesn't want to function.

I feel your pain.

ETA: I know we disagree on a LOT of things on ATS, but if you ever need to vent about the frustrations of parenting an autistic child, my ears are always open. I hope that you have a Happy New Year.

originally posted by: Spacespider
Autism isn't a disorder. It's a way people are. People are different, they're not all the same. People have different strengths, weaknesses, aptitudes and interests. But since we're so disconnected from our true selves and since we are so hell bent on making sure that everyone is the exact same as everyone else we make sure to ostracize anyone that is different.

This is BS. There IS something not right. These folks can't function without a "normal" person.

Sure they are "different". We all are. But they are sure as hell not "normal.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
For example, my son is one of the few children with Asperger's or autism that my psychologist had ever encountered that could understand and fluently use sarcasm, but at the same time, he can also be very literal is certain aspects of life where sarcasm isn't appropriate.

My kids "team", psychologist, behavioral specialist, language specialist, and teachers are all through public school, have been amazing. I have learned from them.

He was caught early, about 18 months. His preschool teacher specialized in autism awareness. We had no clue. He seemed perfectly normal to us.

This is where "elastic brain" and early intervention comes in. The brain learns. As his team explained to me, most children pick up social cues on their own. Autistic kids have to be taught these social cues. Simple things like, if someone asks you a question, you need to look at them and respond. And then stay focused and care about their answer so you can appropriately respond if necessary. The brain will learn and maintain these social behaviors if taught with consistency at the development age level.

a reply to: sussy

How do you address someone telling them they are part of the problem?

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Thanks for the white board math tip, might try it.

He does have small motor issues, but they are in the low normal range for a 9 year old boy.

I do use a color beaded kids abacus rather then scratch paper for him to figure the answer.

Fortunately his school will do individual testing if needed.

He functions well in a classroom. Any assignments he doesn't finish get sent home to be completed.