Confederate Flags

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
It seems to me that any flag, or symbol, can be claimed by some group as being something it was never intended to be. Remember the children's educational TV program called "Reading Rainbow"? The use of the rainbow symbol has become the symbol for gay rights, but does that mean Reading Rainbow is part of the gay rights agenda? If you follow that symbol to it's most popularly known origin, it was originally an Old Testament Bible symbol of God's promise to never flood the earth again.

Yes indeed. However He said He would burn with fire..... the Earth......next time....and thats what He did to Sodom. So the rainbow wasn't the end of the thing.

The battle flag....anyone that I ever knew that used it didn't like black folks.

a reply to: Christosterone

More unnecessary liberal bashing. I have never heard of any liberal fighting to outright ban the confederate flag from existence. I have heard of not wanting to have it flown at government buildings.

Anyone should be free to fly the confederate flag on their car, in their home, and on their person. Just be aware that one who has a penchant for the confederate flag may get a reputation for not liking black folks.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Christosterone

More unnecessary liberal bashing. I have never heard of any liberal fighting to outright ban the confederate flag from existence. I have heard of not wanting to have it flown at government buildings.

Anyone should be free to fly the confederate flag on their car, in their home, and on their person. Just be aware that one who has a penchant for the confederate flag may get a reputation for not liking black folks.

Don't you have a book burning to attend??
I'm sure a school somewhere is exposing kids to Huckleberry Finn or To Kill a Mockingbird..

Control is central of the ethos of the intolerant left which leads to banning thought not in line with their liberal groupthink…

Never was this so perfectly encapsulated as with Tipper and Al Gore's parents network seeking to ban and/or label music which they deemed inappropriate for all children…

The last thing in the world I need is a couple of C student, amoral leftists telling me what my children should or should not be exposed...

Banning is central to the issue of the Confederate flag…

-Chris

The problem with symbols is that their meanings are very dependent upon the person that is seeing the symbol, what they have been taught to believe in on that symbol and what experience they have had in life.

Who is right? Who is wrong? Who is misled?

All and none.

The problem isn't with the symbol itself. The problem is with people who insist that their idea and version of what that symbol means must be the right one and the ONLY meaning that it can have! Anyone that does not see it their way must be wrong, or have something wrong with them.

Take a look at this:



What does it mean?

To some, it means 2. To some it means "Victory", to others it means "Peace", and to some if you add two of them, it means "quotes", and to a deaf person it's the letter V.

But let's flip it around:



We still simply have two fingers extended, but now the meaning of it changes drastically to some. In the United Kingdom, Ireland, Australia, Canada, India, Pakistan and New Zealand it's a insult, akin to here in the US of giving someone the middle finger.

To me personally it's just 2 fingers extended upwards, but to others it's completely different.

Who is right and who is wrong? Neither and both. It's all dependent upon the person that is seeing it, and what they have been taught to believe.

To some, this flag will always be a symbol of hate and racism, while to others it's a symbol of heritage:



Who is right and who is wrong? Again: neither and both. It depends upon the individual. Not everyone that has or sees that flag is a racist hater:



The only problem we actually have is those who think that THEIR beliefs should be the ONLY ones that exist and are the ONLY ones that are right, and who spend a lot of time trying to make people follow what they believe in.

The flag as a symbol is not a problem.

People who insist on forcing what they believe in are the problem. They are ALWAYS the problem.

originally posted by: imjack

...My opinion, is despite what others beliefs are, there is no actual 'salvaging' of this symbol. It has been redefined, and it's new definition will not waiver, especially for the previous one.

If someone 'better hearted' is waving the Conservative Flag, they're merely misinformed...

"...new definition will not waiver..." that doesn't even make sense except as knee-jerk rhetoric. Regardless: The rebel flag still exists and I still--so far--have the right to feel about it however I want. If someone is waving the Whine-ista Flag, I don't think they are misinformed, I perceive that they are deluded, not put together very tightly, and seemingly hate their country and God-given rights. Regardless: You have that right. You fly yours loudly & proudly for sure.

Personally, THIS is my very favorite flag:

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
It seems to me that any flag, or symbol, can be claimed by some group as being something it was never intended to be. Remember the children's educational TV program called "Reading Rainbow"? The use of the rainbow symbol has become the symbol for gay rights, but does that mean Reading Rainbow is part of the gay rights agenda? If you follow that symbol to it's most popularly known origin, it was originally an Old Testament Bible symbol of God's promise to never flood the earth again.

Yes indeed. However He said He would burn with fire..... the Earth......next time....and thats what He did to Sodom. So the rainbow wasn't the end of the thing.

The battle flag....anyone that I ever knew that used it didn't like black folks.

What you state is true I suppose, but not my point which you actually seem to support. Just because racists use the Confederate Battle flag doesn't mean that was what it was originally intended for, just that racists used it as their symbol and then the public began to see it that way too. Just as the rainbow was a symbol of God's promise then later used by the gay rights movement.

a reply to: imjack

I am still trying to figure out what you were saying with this...

How about your spare the sensationalism and explain yourself why they didn't fight. So owning a slave is what is required to be a racist? No wonder white people have so easily denied racism for the last 50 years.

Along with...

Slaves are Racism, The South fought against slavery abolisment, that is the flag they represented to "Rebel" against the North.

seem to imply if you fought for or supported the south, you were racist...

Hence my trying to explain the average farmer probably did not care... it was not racism, it was they did not have the time or the energy to explore the philosophy, when every day was a fight to provide for their families.

Also in the second quote you were wrong, that was not the flag of the confederacy as already mentioned above.

a reply to: Christosterone

You know, I could get into the intolerant right and their efforts to ban the rights of women to do what they want to their own bodies, or their efforts to ban any age appropriate sex ed for younger children, or their efforts to ban books about "witchcraft" like Harry Potter from school libraries, or their efforts to ban same sex marriage, or their efforts to ban transgender people from using the restroom that best fits their gender... but it's the holidays, so I won't.

Season's greetings to you and yours!

a reply to: eriktheawful

See, now ya brought facts and common sense into it and you know you can't do that when people are using feelings to judge others. There are some who will always yell "racist", when others don't fall in line with their opinions.

a reply to: The GUT

Calling it "The Rebel Flag" is no less rhetoric.

The reason this is popular is because it contrasts specifically against the racism by addressing State vs National beliefs as a strawman to it's meaning, even if it's the most predominant meaning to that person, the most predominant meaning to society is racism. Ignoring that is arrogant racism, just as society cannot force individual opinions, individual opinions do not reflect society as fact.

Statistically more people think the flag is racist than don't. This means it factually is interpreted by 'society' as racist.

a reply to: imjack

Sorry no.

Your numbers simply are saying that more people that were polled think that.

And that is ONLY what those numbers mean.

Given this past US election one would think that people would now finally understand that Polls mean: Jack Squat.

The reality is: the flag means what each individual feels that it means. There is no absolute meaning of it at all. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you'll be grounded in reality and not insisting that "you are right and everyone else is wrong".

How about the word "Moo"?

Know what it means?

For many it means the sound that a cow makes.

For the people in Thailand it means "Pig" or "Pork"

When dealing with symbols and symbolism there are not absolutes. Only various degrees of what people think or believe.

a reply to: Irishhaf

It's fine you don't understand. Or maybe it isn't.

People deny it's racist, and my point is child logic refutes that. I'm sorry my 'child logic' wasn't literal enough to reality for you. What's really sad, is your assumption about this 'child logic' is wrong though, it's not even meant to imply anything. Maybe you should just read it the way it is, instead of 'interpreting assumptions' every time you respond.

Nothing against you personally, but it seems to be a major trend of the Right to say "Oh, so by saying this, you actually mean[thing they factually did not say, and thing they don't mean]." Just read it the way it logically follows:

1. Owning a slave is Racist.
2. The South Fought Against Abolishment
3. They used Confederate Flags.

So with this 3 point logic list, we can see that People owned Confederate Flags, of those people some fought against Abolishment, and of those people, some owned slaves and were racist. Viola!

a reply to: eriktheawful

Supply me with numbers that refute what I said.

Ironic the only real topical evidence supports my statement, so it's now completely invalid.

Polls don't matter? So the plan was to discuss banning a flag without even a poll?

I don't disagree this poll(Ironically, I posted no data, so who knows if we're even talking about the same one. In my Research, I found ZERO polls that represented it as non-racist.) doesn't represent everyone. The amount of strawman in this thread is ludicrous however. So now because polls are invalid, this flag isn't racist?

Here in the UK when you see a Confederate flag it is nearly always pinned onto the rear of a truck drivers can just behind where they sit. i guess its put there as the driver travels all over the country and sees it as stating a sense of freedom gained on their job

The flag was hijacked by the kkk and neo nazys in the usa.

originally posted by: dukeofjive696969
The flag was hijacked by the kkk and neo nazys in the usa.

I agree with this. You people hate Liberals, but it's radical supremacists that have adopted it, not liberals.

Blame Liberals tho. Defend White Supremacy. Trump is love. Trump is life.

The flags designer had different thoughts than you apologists for this racist, crap piece of cloth.

Maybe you should look up why he designed the flag.
Instead of the revisionist history you always bring to these threads.

a reply to: imjack

Your claim, your burden of proof. That's how it works here on ATS (and in most places in reality).

Your claim is: because a certain amount of people polled agree with your point of view of a symbol, that should be what that symbol means and everyone else is wrong, with only you being right.

My claim: The flag is a symbol that can mean whatever a person that sees it believes, because that is the nature of symbols. What it means is a personal belief and what people are taught to believe in. It can never have an absolute meaning unless agreed upon by everyone, which is not the case with almost any symbol.

If you believe that the flag is racist and those who have it or display it are racist, then that is your belief. Doesn't make you right however. I personally know many who like that flag, yet do not have a racist bone in their body.

You seem to have an overwhelming need to be correct on this (don't worry, you're not the only one. This is not the first discussion of this here on ATS. If you do some research you'll find that there are many who believe as you do....and many who do not).

A wrench is used to tighten or loosen a bolt or nut. It can also be used as a weapon to beat someone to death with (if big enough). We are taught what it's proper use is.....that does not negate the fact that it can also be used for something else.

Do polls mater? Yes, to the people that take them, make them, and want to believe in them.

To the rest of us, we understand that polls are a way of manipulating numbers to read what you want. They can shift and be incorrect, depending on the polling sample, amount of people polled, where they were polled, etc, etc, etc. If you desire to believe in them, go right ahead.

I, on the other hand, and a lot of other people have learned over time that polls do not mean Jack.

What I (and others) do know is: symbols can mean whatever people want them to mean. Does not make them right or wrong.

You feel that the Battle Jack of the Confederate Army and Navy is "racist". Okay, that's your belief.

Mine is that it was a historical flag carried by certain Confederate armies and flow on certain Confederate ships during the civil war, representing the Confederate States of America during the civil war. Not everyone in the south fighting in that war were fighting to keep slavery, as not everyone had slaves or owned slaves. Just as not everyone in the Union armies fought to free slaves. Do some research.

Some people have used the flag to represent their beliefs in hate and racism. That's unfortunate, but at the same time, many of those groups also use the US flag. By your logic, that makes the US flag also a symbol of hate and racism.

Symbols are what they are: things that people see that make them feel or believe in certain things. What they believe and feel is up to them.

Not you.

a reply to: Hazardous1408

As irrelevant as Swastikas.

If the America Eagle represented Rape by a majority of society tomorrow, the design phase doesn't change this implication of it's meaning.

You might say that's 'preposterous', but a symbol doesn't care how it's meaning is derived or it's origin.

The most popular symbol in the world is infact the Illuminati Eye and Pyramid. This is generally considered a malevolent symbol of Elitism. It actually represents overcoming diversity(specifically of Class, not Race), and the massive prosperity and enlightenment that comes from doing so.

a reply to: eriktheawful

Burden of Proof isn't required? You openly admitted you believed the poll has the results I claimed without me even posting it, you're rejecting the notion of the 'poll', no amount of 'proof' satisfies that.

Your claim is 100% not inaccurate.

Rejecting there are racist implications that can be added to that is also inaccurate though.

Even claiming this to 'my own beleif' is generally an absurd strawman yet again, this is a sanctioned beleif by society. Even if you disagree with it, you understand and know OF it. This is not merely just 'my opinion'. Statistics back up my stance, no statistics generally back up yours, so you attack statistics itself.

Tell me, what would work better than a poll that includes every American Citizen? Pft, nothing. You might claim a poll inaccurate, it's the closest statistical model to the truth however.