Turin Shroud 3000 years old?

For me the jury is still out on this. I have read and seen much about it but there seems to be as much information to discard it as there is to accept it. There are just somethings in this world we will never know or understand and that is fine with me. Surprise, wonder and mircles are exciting.

The Shroud has always been an interest of mine. Regardless of whether you believe in its authenticity, or not, you have to admit it’s a pretty amazing artifact. The fact that we are still unsure of its original origins “speaks” a lot to me. I mean, we are talking about something that many believe was created by a supernatural force and we can’t prove that it wasn’t. That fact to me is what is so amazing about the Shroud, that after possibly thousands of years it is still a mystery.

Originally posted by fourth horseman
"It will come up from the abyss

WTF was that all about?

Originally posted by kinglizard

This is untrue. In 1988 the Catholic Church agreed to have the shroud carbon dated. Small squares were cut from the shroud and given to the leading carbon dating experts from many nations, at least some half dozen teams I believe. The results came back with no date older than the 14th century.

My bad! I did see that somewhere, but it must of been a very old program. I try to always catch anything on the shroud....I do remember hearing that it had been in a fire which my interfer with dating results.

Isn't the shroud of Turin an image of a European Man, which Jesus,
assuming that he exsisted, clearly wouldn't have been?

What wasn't made clear in the coverage of the new data of the Shroud is how it was established that the 1988 study indeed analyzed a later-date patch and not the original cloth. And if that study dated the shroud to a period around 1260-1390, that patch sewn on after 1532 would've been over 100 years old? Or is it the margin of error of carbon dating?

Other question - if the Shroud were to be more than 2000 years old, maybe as old as 3000 years, does anyone have any data on when the practice of crucifixion actually came into being? Was it practiced around 1000 BC?

Just curious.

Originally posted by Otts
Other question - if the Shroud were to be more than 2000 years old, maybe as old as 3000 years, does anyone have any data on when the practice of crucifixion actually came into being? Was it practiced around 1000 BC?

The 3,000 year old date is just an oldest possible date from this lignin-vanillin dating method, ie the method isn't very precise and only gives juge ranges.

I am unfamiliar with any account of crucifixtion of anyone from that time or even any acts of crucifixtion pre-ceding the roman empire.

uh, scuse me? Jesus wasn't the only person to ever have been crucified, the difference is that he was tortured before, and died for our sins. The crucifix was actually a symbol that the Romans had on their coins for a while.

But anyway, this whole shroud thing is very interesting, I honestly never heard of it until now and am intrigued.

I'm no Christian, and I don't think Turin Shroud is real.
I've seen it once (I do live in Turin), and I think the traits of the person we see in the shroud are more Middle European rather than Middle Eastern, as they should have been if the Shroud really hosted Jesus' body...

And, as someone has already pointed in one of the replies above, they seem more like a 14/15th century man, instead of somebody who has lived 2000 years ago...

Then, lastly, look at the blood stain over the man's hand. We know Jesus was crucified, by putting some big, long nails in his hands, right? Well, those nails were not put in his palms, because tissues there are just too weak and have no blocking bones (just "vertical" bones connected to the fingers, and no "orizontal" bone that would have stopped and prevented the nail from tearing the hand), so the hand would have been split in two.
Instead, Romans knew that putting nails right a little above the junction between the hand and the arm, was both very painful, and allowed upper hand bones (assuming up is towards the hand, and down is towards the fingers) to hold the nail... now, looking at the pictures of the Shroud, I think the blood stain is somewhat misplaced: it should have been a little more "upwards", towards the arm...

[edit on 30-1-2005 by Sparhawk]

Originally posted by JJ McKool
uh, scuse me? Jesus wasn't the only person to ever have been crucified

No one denies that, it was a common punishment amoung the romans.

, the difference is that he was tortured before

I very much doubt he was the only person flogged before being crucified.

Originally posted by Sparhawk
I'm no Christian, and I don't think Turin Shroud is real.
I've seen it once (I do live in Turin), and I think the traits of the person we see in the shroud are more Middle European rather than Middle Eastern, as they should have been if the Shroud really hosted Jesus' body...

And, as someone has already pointed in one of the replies above, they seem more like a 14/15th century man, instead of somebody who has lived 2000 years ago...

Then, lastly, look at the blood stain over the man's hand. We know Jesus was crucified, by putting some big, long nails in his hands, right? Well, those nails were not put in his palms, because tissues there are just too weak and have no blocking bones (just "vertical" bones connected to the fingers, and no "orizontal" bone that would have stopped and prevented the nail from tearing the hand), so the hand would have been split in two.
Instead, Romans knew that putting nails right a little above the junction between the hand and the arm, was both very painful, and allowed upper hand bones (assuming up is towards the hand, and down is towards the fingers) to hold the nail... now, looking at the pictures of the Shroud, I think the blood stain is somewhat misplaced: it should have been a little more "upwards", towards the arm...

Thanks for the info Sparhawk, I'd heard the same thing regarding the nails though I have no sources to quote. It would make sense though, per the reasons you gave. I guess one would have to find a book like "How to Crucify" by Romanvs Soldiervs. It would also be interesting to hear what the shroud holders would have to say about it too. I doubt it would be "oops!" though.

Well, me too I don't think they'll just say "oops"!!

Anyway, IMHO, even if the Turin Shroud may be a hoax, probably Jesus (or we could say "a Jesus", since for what I know, his name could also have been Charles) has historically existed, and he had really been tortured and killed by Romans, since they found him politically dangerous (and, guess what, crucifixion was also used by Romans to get rid of political enemies and "rebels").
Dunno what to think about miracles... but since normal people may heal and so on, why shouldn't he have been able to?! Probably, he had great knowledge in this field, and he did great things. I still wonder where he has gone, and what he has seen in the 20 years gap the Holy Writings don't say a thing about him: we read about him when he was a young boy, and we read about his last 3 years of life... but we don't read anything of what has happened in between...!

Wasn't there a study that showed that the anatomy of the body was unproptional (i.e. head was too small for the body) I think it was a show on the discovery channel. What I thought was interesting, was that they also suspect that Da Vinci played a role in the Shroud, saying that it was a hoax in order to misled the church.

Well, having seen and/or heard information on the Shroud over the years (including the time I was a practicing RC), I have to vote for the DaVinci angle.
I'll just bet he is ROFL at silly mankind for getting so wrapped up in his trickery. Hey, Leo, you rock

Originally posted by Sparhawk
I still wonder where he has gone, and what he has seen in the 20 years gap the Holy Writings don't say a thing about him: we read about him when he was a young boy, and we read about his last 3 years of life... but we don't read anything of what has happened in between...!

Nor would I think anyone would be interested. I hear complaint enough that the Book is a dry read. To have a biography of growing up as a carpenter's son would hardly be helpful as the Book was intended.

I see what you mean though, there is that wonder, but there was a 15 year gap between when I became a servant of God and when I was 'activated' as a servant of God. Why the gap? I don't know. Maturity, experience, knowledge, tools, timing, understanding, reasoning? Probably all of the above. Nobody said He answers prayers immediately, nor that you don't have to take the first step. In retrospect, I would've done a lot more to get to this point, but it's easy to see how to change the past and very difficult to see how to change the present.

Originally posted by saint4God
Nor would I think anyone would be interested. I hear complaint enough that the Book is a dry read. To have a biography of growing up as a carpenter's son would hardly be helpful as the Book was intended.

I see what you mean though, there is that wonder, but there was a 15 year gap between when I became a servant of God and when I was 'activated' as a servant of God. Why the gap? I don't know. Maturity, experience, knowledge, tools, timing, understanding, reasoning? Probably all of the above. Nobody said He answers prayers immediately, nor that you don't have to take the first step. In retrospect, I would've done a lot more to get to this point, but it's easy to see how to change the past and very difficult to see how to change the present.

Instead, I'd be really interested in learning what he did and where he go in that gap.
At least, it could help me a lot in my evolution, because even if I'm no Christian, I think Jesus was a great man, with great mind and spirituality. He probably went somewhere and learnt many things that allowed him to advance and evolve, and so, knowing his "material" path, could help me a lot.

i heared that leonardo da vinci painted it.

I am starting to suspect that Leonardo was actually a god. I mean whenever something ancient that was left unexplained comes up its Leonardo did this. Leonardo had a mystery code that explains Jesus' secret life, Leonardo painted the Turin shroud, Leonardo designed the first plane , etc etc etc The man was a fairly great artist, but there were many greater artists, as an inventor, none of his inventions actually worked at the time that they were invented.His last supper is peeling off the walls, the Monal Lisa's background halves don't quite match. Do we give credit to everybody with a vivid imagination for inventing the item? How about the Jules Verne code - maybe his books have a code explaining the birth of Adam, or the very existence of God?

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Mynaeris]

Originally posted by Mynaeris
I am starting to suspect that Leonardo was actually a god. I mean whenever something ancient that was left unexplained comes up its Leonardo did this. Leonardo had a mystery code that explains Jesus' secret life, Leonardo painted the Turin shroud, Leonardo designed the first plane , etc etc etc The man was a fairly great artist, but there were many greater artists, as an inventor, none of his inventions actually worked at the time that they were invented.

[edit on 5-2-2005 by Mynaeris]

He came up with the helicopter too. lol

Originally posted by Sparhawk
Instead, I'd be really interested in learning what he did and where he go in that gap.
At least, it could help me a lot in my evolution, because even if I'm no Christian, I think Jesus was a great man, with great mind and spirituality. He probably went somewhere and learnt many things that allowed him to advance and evolve, and so, knowing his "material" path, could help me a lot.

Some things that may help then. Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea (historically the land of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of Israel). He ends up just north of here for crucifixion and resurrection so in his lifetime he travels a big loop. Anyhow, after Jesus is born, (plays Beverly Hillbillies theme song here) o/~ they packed up their bags and move to Galilee. Nazareth that is, carpenters, humble folk o/~. Nazereth was about a 50 mile trip northward (quite a trip back in the day). Growing up he learns from his pop all the skills of carpentry and had a little bro and a little sis. He goes to the temple...then starts spending a LOT of time at the temple with his ears open, spending far more time there than your typical Sabbath Day services. Jesus reaches an age where he is 'activated' by God to go out on tour from Tyre (in Phoenicia to the north) to Bethany beyond Jordan in the south by foot on a trip that looks to be more than 200 miles .