An evolutionary dilemma!!!!

originally posted by: chr0naut

Because of the current diversity of life and the differences in transcription between different domains, it is rational to assume that there must have been multiple, unconnected, abiogenetic events.

Even one abiogenetic event is unfathomable. The most simple prokaryotes require the following:

1) replication and protein coding genes through nucleic acid template
2) Translation machinery to create proteins
3) metabolic machinery
4) cellular membrane
5) homeostatic mechanisms (i.e. epigenetics)

A cell must have all of these, especially 1-4, otherwise it is inviable and cannot perpetuate a cell line... Yet it begs the question of how, even in 13 billion years, could such complexity arise from randomness?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

You again are very good at posting other peoples ideas, with no context, as if it is proof.

I return to the questionH

Have you done the experiments?

Are you suggesting that there is some sort of contextual confusion going on?

Is it a requirement that everyone who makes a comment upon science must personally have "done the experiments"? If so, what qualifies Dick Dawkins for his podium?

I'm actually fairly confident that peer reviewed reports and replicated experimentation are sufficiently credentialled to not require my personal verification.

Perhaps you could determine contextual issues with the following publications?:

The tree of one percent

Is It Time to Uproot the Tree of Life?

Woese on the received view of evolution

Evolutionary change and phylogenetic relationships in light of horizontal gene transfer

Genome trees and the tree of life.

The net of life: reconstructing the microbial phylogenetic network.

Algorithms for computing parsimonious evolutionary scenarios for genome evolution, the last universal common ancestor and dominance of horizontal gene transfer in the evolution of prokaryotes.

These articles are UNRELATED to abiogenesis. They are basically discussing EVOLUTION AFTER life presented itself on this planet. You're mixing your apples and oranges without understanding how the process works.

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: chr0naut

Because of the current diversity of life and the differences in transcription between different domains, it is rational to assume that there must have been multiple, unconnected, abiogenetic events.

Even one abiogenetic event is unfathomable. The most simple prokaryotes require the following:

1) replication and protein coding genes through nucleic acid template
2) Translation machinery to create proteins
3) metabolic machinery
4) cellular membrane
5) homeostatic mechanisms (i.e. epigenetics)

A cell must have all of these, especially 1-4, otherwise it is inviable and cannot perpetuate a cell line... Yet it begs the question of how, even in 13 billion years, could such complexity arise from randomness?

BS. This is another cart-before-the-horse argument that has nothing to do with his position on abiogenesis.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

You again are very good at posting other peoples ideas, with no context, as if it is proof.

I return to the questionH

Have you done the experiments?

Are you suggesting that there is some sort of contextual confusion going on?

Is it a requirement that everyone who makes a comment upon science must personally have "done the experiments"? If so, what qualifies Dick Dawkins for his podium?

I'm actually fairly confident that peer reviewed reports and replicated experimentation are sufficiently credentialled to not require my personal verification.

Perhaps you could determine contextual issues with the following publications?:

The tree of one percent

Is It Time to Uproot the Tree of Life?

Woese on the received view of evolution

Evolutionary change and phylogenetic relationships in light of horizontal gene transfer

Genome trees and the tree of life.

The net of life: reconstructing the microbial phylogenetic network.

Algorithms for computing parsimonious evolutionary scenarios for genome evolution, the last universal common ancestor and dominance of horizontal gene transfer in the evolution of prokaryotes.

Then cite a research paper that demonstrates that life started multiple times on this planet with different fundamental building blocks.

And yes - you should at least have done some hands-on science to understand what you're talking about. That's the biggest problem. I doubt whether you have ever done a southern blot.

P.S. Why not discuss one of those algorithms you seem to know so much about. Would be an interesting discussion...

a reply to: chr0naut

Case in point:

BACKGROUND: Comparative analysis of sequenced genomes reveals numerous instances of apparent horizontal gene transfer (HGT), at least in prokaryotes, and indicates that lineage-specific gene loss might have been even more common in evolution. This complicates the notion of a species tree, which needs to be re-interpreted as a prevailing evolutionary trend, rather than the full depiction of evolution, and makes reconstruction of ancestral genomes a non-trivial task.

Note the operative words and phrases: SEQUENCED GENOMES, GENE TRANSFER, EVOLUTION, SPECIES TREE, EVOLUTIONARY TREND, ANCESTRAL GENOMES.

Nothing is this article relates to abiogenesis. This is EX POST FACTO research - AFTER THE FACT - Life had to exist for any of this research to be done! Do you get it???

a reply to: chr0naut

Case in point:

BACKGROUND: Comparative analysis of sequenced genomes reveals numerous instances of apparent horizontal gene transfer (HGT), at least in prokaryotes, and indicates that lineage-specific gene loss might have been even more common in evolution. This complicates the notion of a species tree, which needs to be re-interpreted as a prevailing evolutionary trend, rather than the full depiction of evolution, and makes reconstruction of ancestral genomes a non-trivial task.

Note the operative words and phrases: SEQUENCED GENOMES, GENE TRANSFER, EVOLUTION, SPECIES TREE, EVOLUTIONARY TREND, ANCESTRAL GENOMES.

Nothing is this article relates to abiogenesis. This is EX POST FACTO research - AFTER THE FACT - Life had to exist for any of this research to be done! Do you get it???

a reply to: chr0naut

Yes I can. None of these papers relate to the beginning of life. Post some papers about that. You are arguing against a single biogenic event (or appear to be doing so, it is unclear).

I ask again what is your background in this area. My science degrees are from the Chemistry and Biochemistry departments at Otago.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: chr0naut

Because of the current diversity of life and the differences in transcription between different domains, it is rational to assume that there must have been multiple, unconnected, abiogenetic events.

How do you draw that conclusions when diversity is a result of evolution? You made a point of saying that abiogenesis and evolution are unrelated. But diversity didn't arise from abiogenesis. If it did, we would see different fundamental building blocks for some organisms and we don't. Diversity is a direct result of evolution and speciation.

But they are all also made of atoms. The idea that the common building block = common universal ancestor is unsupported by science or reason. Consider that the Australian Aboriginals painted with ochre as did the Neandethals in France. It would be insanity to assume an artistic connection or influence between them. The same building block merely indicates that the material is superior to all others for the task, not that there is a connection. Ditto for evolution.

Multiple unrelated abiogenetic events are most likely to produce a diversity but would favour certain materials, scenarios and processes because they simply happen to be better suited.

Several have suggested that multiple abiogenetic events are only theoretical. A single abiogenetic event is also theoretical, and far less reasonable.

I am not arguing that evolution is a source of biological diversity, it is, but suggesting that is is the ONLY source is preposterous.

a reply to: chr0naut

Do you know what a Non Sequitur argument is? Because you just used one, to try and prove a point.

I return to asking. What is your source of authority to be a subject matter expert in this? You have yet to provide peer reviewed evidence to support this argument. One can only assume you have none.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: chr0naut

Case in point:

BACKGROUND: Comparative analysis of sequenced genomes reveals numerous instances of apparent horizontal gene transfer (HGT), at least in prokaryotes, and indicates that lineage-specific gene loss might have been even more common in evolution. This complicates the notion of a species tree, which needs to be re-interpreted as a prevailing evolutionary trend, rather than the full depiction of evolution, and makes reconstruction of ancestral genomes a non-trivial task.

Nothing is this article relates to abiogenesis. This is EX POST FACTO research - AFTER THE FACT - Life had to exist for any of this research to be done! Do you get it???

So, if life didn't exist... there wouldn't be any researchers. And in UPPERCASE, too! I'm convinced.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut

Yes I can. None of these papers relate to the beginning of life. Post some papers about that. You are arguing against a single biogenic event (or appear to be doing so, it is unclear).

I ask again what is your background in this area. My science degrees are from the Chemistry and Biochemistry departments at Otago.

OK,

University of Western Sydney and The University of Sydney in Space Sciences, Astronomy, Mathematics and Physics.

No Biology credentials apart from general interest.

originally posted by: Noinden
a reply to: chr0naut
You have yet to provide peer reviewed evidence to support this argument. One can only assume you have none.

Here's a list of 87 peer reviewed papers on abiogenesis:

(Part 1)

A Combined Experimental And Theoretical Study On The Formation Of The Amino Acid Glycine And Its Isomer In Extraterrestrial Ices by Philip D. Holtom, Chris J. Bennett, Yoshihiro Osamura, Nigel J Mason and Ralf. I Kaiser, The Astrophysical Journal, 626: 940-952 (20th June 2005)

A Production Of Amino Acids Under Possible Primitive Earth Conditions by Stanley L. Miller, Science, 117: 528-529 (15th May 1953)

A Rigorous Attempt To Verify Interstellar Glycine by I. E. Snyder, F. J. Lovas, J. M. Hollis, D. N. Friedel, P. R. Jewell, A. Remijan, V. V. Ilyushin, E. A. Alekseev and S. F. Dyubko, The Astrophysical Journal, 619(2): 914-930 (1st February 2005) [Also available at arXiv.org]

A Self-Replicating Ligase Ribozyme by Natasha Paul & Gerald F. Joyce, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA., 99(20): 12733-12740 (1st October 2002)

A Self-Replicating System by T. Tjivuka, P. Ballester and J. Rebek Jr, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 112: 1249-1250 (1990)

Activated Acetic Acid By Carbon Fixation On (Fe,Ni)S Under Primordial Conditions by Claudia Huber and Günter Wächetershäuser, Science, 276: 245-247 (11th April 1997)

An Asymmetric Underlying Rule In The Assignment Of Codons: Possible Clue To A Quick Early Evolution Of The Genetic Code Via Successive Binary Choices by Marc Delarue, The RNA Journal, 13(2): 161-169 (12th December 2006)

Attempted Prebiotic Synthesis Of Pseudouridine by Jason P. Dworkin, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 27: 345-355 (1997)

Carbonyl Sulphide-Mediated Prebiotic Formation Of Peptides by Luke Leman, Leslie Orgel and M. Reza Ghadiri, Science, 306: 283-286 (8th October 2004)

Catalysis In Prebiotic Chemistry: Application To The Synthesis Of RNA Oligomers by James P. Ferris, Prakash C. Joshi, K-J Wang, S. Miyakawa and W. Huang, Advances in Space Research, 33: 100-105 (2004)

Cations As Mediators Of The Adsorption Of Nucleic Acids On Clay Surfaces In Prebiotic Environments by Marco Franchi, James P. Ferris and Enzo Gallori, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 33: 1-16 (2003)

Chemistry for the Synthesis of Nucleobase-Modified Peptide Nucleic Acid by R. H. E. Hudson, R. D. Viirre, Y. H. Liu, F. Wojciechowski and A. K. Dambenieks, Pure Appl. Chem., 76(7-8) 1591-1598, 2004

Coevolution Of Compositional Protocells And Their Environment by Barak Shenhav, Aia Oz and Doron Lancet, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 362: 1813-1819 (9th May 2007)

Computational Models For The Formation Of Protocell Structures by Linglan Edwards, Yun Peng and James A. Reggia, Artificial Life, 4(1): 61-77 (1998)

Conditions For The Emergence Of Life On The Early Earth: Summary And Reflections by Joshua Jortner, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1877-1891 (11th September 2006)

Coupled Growth And Division Of Model Protocell Membranes by Ting F. Zhu and Jack W. Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 131: 5705-5713 (2009)

Darwinian Evolution On A Chip by Brian M. Paegel and Gerald F. Joyce, Public Library of Science Biology, 6(4): e85 (April 2008)

Early Anaerobic Metabolisms by Don E Canfield, Minik T Rosing and Christian Bjerrum, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1819-1836 (11th September 2006)

Emergence Of A Replicating Species From An In Vitro RNA Evolution Reaction by Ronald R. Breaker and Gerald F. Joyce, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 91: 6093-6097 (June 1994)

Evolution And Self-Assembly Of Protocells by Ricard V. Solé, The International Journal of Biochemistry & Cell Biology, 41: 274-284 (2009)

Evolution Of Amino Acid Frequencies In Proteins Over Deep Time: Inferred Order Of Introduction Of Amino Acids Into The Genetic Code by Dawn J. Brooks, Jacques R. Fresco, Arthur M. Lesk and Mona Singh, Molecular and Biological Evolution, 19(10): 1645-1655 (2002)

Formation Of Bimolecular Membranes From Lipid Monolayers And A Study Of Their Electrical Properties by M. Montal and P. Mueller, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 69(12): 3561-3566 (December 1972)

Formation Of Protocell-Like Structures From Glycine And Formaldehyde In A Modified Sea Medium by Hiroshi Yanagawa and Fujio Egami, Proceedings of the Japan Academy, 53: 42-45 (12th January 1977)

Formation Of Protocell-Like Vesicles In A Thermal Diffusion Column by Itay Budin, Raphael J. Bruckner and Jack W. Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 131: 9628-9629 (2009)

Generic Darwinian Selection In Catalytic Protocell Assemblies by Andreea Munteanu, Camille Stephan-Otto Attolini, Steen Rasmussen, Hans Ziock and Ricard V. Solé, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 362: 1847-1855 (2007)

Homochiral Selection In The Montmorillonite-Catalysed And Uncatalysed Prebiotic Synthesis Of RNA by Prakash C. Joshi, Stefan Pitsch and James P. Ferris, Chemical Communications (Royal Society of Chemistry), 2497-2498 (2000) [DOI: 10.1039/b007444f]

Hyperthermophiles In The History Of Life by Karl O. Stetter, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1837-1843 (11th September 2006)

Implications Of A 3.472-3.333?GYr-Old Subaerial Microbal Mat From The Barberton Greenstone Belt, South Africa, For The UV Environmental Conditions Of The Early Earth by Frances Westall, Cornel E.J de Ronde, Gordon Southam, Nathalie Grassineau, Maggy Colas, Charles Cockell and Helmut Lammer, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1857-1876 (11th September 2006)

Information Transfer From Peptide Nucleic Acids To RNA By Template-Directed Syntheses by Jürgen G. Schmidt, Peter E. Nielsen and Leslie E. Orgel, Nucleic Acids Research, 25(23): 4794-4802 (1997)

Interstellar Glycine by Yi-Jehng Kuan, Steven B. Charnley, Hui-Chun Huang, Wei-Ling Tseng, and Zbigniew Kisiel, The Astrophysical Journal, 593: 848-867 (20th August 2003)

Kin Selection And Virulence In The Evolution Of Protocells And Parasites by Steven A. Frank, Proceedings of the Royal Society of London Part B, 258: 153-161 (1994)

Ligation Of The Hairpin Ribozyme In cis Induced By Freezing And Dehydration by Sergei A. Kazakov, Svetlana V. Balatskaya and Brian H. Johnston, The RNA Journal, 12: 446-456 (2006)

Lipid Bilayer Fibres From Diastereomeric And Enantiomeric N-Octylaldonamides by Jürgen-Hinrich Fuhrhop, Peter Schneider, Egbert Boekema and Wolfgang Helfrich, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 110: 2861-2867 (1988)

"Living" Under The Challenge Of Information Decay: The Stochastic Corrector Model Versus Hypercycles by Elias Zintzaras, Mauro Santos and Eörs Szathmáry, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 217: 167-181 (2002)

Mineral Catalysis And Prebiotic Synthesis: Montmorillonite-Catalysed Formation Of RNA by James P. Ferris, Elements, 1: 145-149 (June 2005)

Molecular Asymmetry In Extraterrestrial Chemistry: Insights From A Pristine Meteorite by Sandra Pizzarello, Yongsong Huang and Marcelo R. Alexandre, Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 105(10): 3700-3704 (11th March 2008)

Molecular Dynamics Simulation Of The Formation, Structure, And Dynamics Of Small Phospholipid Vesicles by Siewert J. Marrink and Alan E. Mark, Jo

a reply to: Noinden

(Part 2)

Nutrient Uptake By Protocells: A Liposome Model System by Pierre-Alain Monnard and David W. Deamer, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 31: 147-155 (2001)

Organic Compounds In Carbonaceous Meteorites by Mark A. Sephton, Natural Products Reports (Royal Society of Chemistry), 19: 292-311 (2002)

Peptide Nucleic Acids Rather Than RNA May Have Been The First Genetic Molecule by Kevin E. Nelson, Matthew Levy and Stanley L. Miller, Proc. Natl, Acad. Sci. USA., 97(8): 3868-3871, 11th April 2000

Peptides By Activation Of Amino Acids With CO On (Ni,Fe)S Surfaces: Implications For The Origin Of Life by Claudia Huber and Günter Wächtershäuser, Science, 281: 670-672 (31st July 1998)

Phenotypic Diversity And Chaos In A Minimal Cell Model by Andreea Munteanu and Ricard V. Solé, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 240: 434-442 (2006)

Prebiotic Amino Acids As Asymmetric Catalysts by Sandra Pizzarello and Arthur L. Weber, Science, 303: 1151 (20 February 2004)

Prebiotic Chemistry And The Origin Of The RNA World by Leslie E. Orgel, Critical Reviews in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, 39: 99-123 (2004)

Prebiotic Materials From On And Off The Early Earth by Max Bernstein, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

Prebiotic Synthesis On Minerals: Bridging The Prebiotic And RNA Worlds by James P. Ferris, Biological Bulletin, 196: 311-314 (June 1999)

Racemic Amino Acids From The Ultraviolet Photolysis Of Interstellar Ice Analogues by Max P. Bernstein, Jason P. Dworkin, Scott A. Sandford, George W. Copoper and Louis J. Allamandola, Nature, 416: 401-403

Replicating Vesicles As Models Of Primitive Cell Growth And Division by Martin M. Hanczyc and Jack W. Szostak, Current Opinion In Chemical Biology, 8: 660-664 (22nd October 2004)

Ribozymes: Building The RNA World by Gerald F. Joyce, Current Biology, 6(8): 965-967, 1996

RNA Catalysis In Model Protocell Vesicles by Irene A Chen, Kourosh Salehi-Ashtiani and Jack W Szostak, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 127: 13213-13219 (2005)

RNA-Catalysed Nucleotide Synthesis by Peter J. Unrau and David P. Bartel, Nature, 395: 260-263 (17th September 1998)

RNA-Catalyzed RNA Polymerization: Accurate and General RNA-Templated Primer Extension by Wendy K. Johnston, Peter J. Unrau, Michael S. Lawrence, Margaret E. Glasner and David P. Bartel, Science, 292: 1319-1325, 18th May 2001

RNA-Directed Amino Acid Homochirality by J. Martyn Bailey, FASEB Journal (Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology), 12: 503-507 (1998)

RNA Evolution And The Origin Of Life by Gerald F. Joyce, Nature, 338: 217-224 (16th March 1989)

Self Replicating Systems by Volker Patzke and Günter von Kiedrowski, ARKIVOC 5: 293-310, 2007

Self-Assembling Amphiphilic Molecules Synthesis In Simulated Interstellar/Precometary Ices by Jason P. Dworkin, David W. Deamer, Scott A. Sandford and Louis J. Allamandola, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 98(3): 815-819 (30th January 2001)

Self-Assembly Of Surfactant-Like Peptides With Variable Glycine Tails To Form Nanotubes And Nanovesicles by Steve Santoso, Wonmuk Hwang, Hyman Hartman and Shuguang Zhang, Nano Letters, 2(7): 687-691 (2002)

Self-Assembly Processes In The Prebiotic Environment by David Deamer, Sara Singaram, Sudha Rajamani, Vladimir Kompanichenko and Stephen Guggenheim, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

Self-Organising Biochemical Cycles by Leslie E. Orgel, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 97(23): 12503-12507 (7th November 2000)

Self-Sustained Replication Of An RNA Enzyme by Tracey A. Lincoln and Gerald F. Joyce, ScienceExpress, DOI: 10.1126/science.1167856 (8th January 2009)

Sequence- And Regio-Selectivity In The Montmorillonite-Catalysed Synthesis Of RNA by Gözen Ertem and James P. Ferris, Origins of Life and Evolution of the Biosphere, 30: 411-422 (2000)

Simulation Of The Spontaneous Aggregation Of Phospholipids Into Bilayers by Siewert J. Marrink, Eric Lindahl, Olle Edholm and Alan E. Mark, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 123: 8638-8639 (2001)

Synchronisation Phenomena In Internal Reaction Models Of Protocells by Roberto Serra, Timoteo Carletti, Alessandro Filisetti and Irene Poli, Artificial life, 13: 123-128 (2007)

Synchronisation Phenomena In Protocell Models by Alessandro Filisetti, Roberto Serra, Timoteo Carletti, Irene Poli and Marco Villani, Biophysical Reviews and Letters, 3(1-2): 325-342 (2008)

Synthesis Of 35-40 Mers Of RNA Oligomers From Unblocked Monomers. A Simple Approach To The RNA World by Wenhua Huang and James P. Ferris, Chemical Communications of the Royal Society of Chemistry, 1458-1459 (2003)

Synthesis Of Long Prebiotic Oligomers On Mineral Surfaces by James P. Ferris, Aubrey R. Hill Jr, Rihe Liu and Leslie E. Orgel, Nature, 381: 59-61 (2nd May 1996)

Synthesising Life by Jack W. Szostak, David P. Bartel and P. Luigi Luisi, Nature, 409: 387-390 (18th January 2001)

Synthetic Protocell Biology: From Reproduction To Computation by Ricard V. Solé, Andreea Munteanu, Carlos Rodriguez-Caso and Javier Macia, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 362: 1727-1739 (October 2007)

Template-Directed Synthesis Of A Genetic Polymer In A Model Protocell by Sheref S. Mansy, Jason P. Schrum, Mathangi Krisnamurthy, Sylvia Tobé, Douglas A. Treco and Jack W. Szostak, Nature, 454: 122-125 (4th June 2008)

The Antiquity Of RNA-Based Evolution by Gerald F. Joyce, Nature, 418: 214-221, 11th July 2002

The Case For An Ancestral Genetic System Involving Simple Analogues Of The Nucleotides by Gerald F. Joyce, Alan W. Schwartz, Stanley L. Miller and Leslie E. Orgel, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 84: 4398-4402 (July 1987)

The Descent of Polymerisation by Matthew Levy and Andrew D. Ellington, Nature Structural Biology, 8(7): 580-582, July 2001

The Emergence Of Competition Between Model Protocells by Irene A Chen, Richard W. Roberts and Jack W. Szostak, Science, 305:1474-1476 (3rd September 2004)

The Generality Of DNA-Templated Synthesis As A Basis For Evolving Non-Natural Small Molecules by Zev J. Gartner and David R. Liu, Journal of the American Chemical Society, 123: 6961-6963 (2001)

The Lifetimes Of Nitriles (CN) And Acids (COOH) During Ultraviolet Photolysis And Their Survival In Space by Max P. Bernstein, Samantha F. M. Ashbourne, Scott A. Sandford and Louis J. Allamandola, The Astrophysical Journal, 601: 3650270 (20th January 2004)

The Lipid World by Daniel Segré, Dafna Ben-Eli, David W. Deamer and Doron Lancet, Origins of Life And Evolution of the Biosphere, 31: 119-145, 2001

The Miller Volcanic Spark Discharge Experiment by Adam P. Johnson, H. James Cleaves., Jason D. Dworkin, Daniel P. Glavin, Antonio Lazcano and Jeffrey L. Bada, Science, 322: 404 (17th October 2008)

The Origin And Early Evolution Of Life: Prebiotic Chemistry, The Pre-RNA World, And Time by Antonio Laczano and Stanley R. Miller, Cell, 85: 793-798 (14th June 1996)

The Origin Of Replicators And Reproducers by Eörs Szathmáry, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (11th September 2006)

The Prebiotic Molecules Observed In The Interstellar Gas by P. Thaddeus, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society Part B, 361: 1689-1702 (7th September 2006)

a reply to: Noinden

Oh yes, nearly forgot, I had a brief e-mail conversation with Nobel Laureate, Dr. Jack Szostak, with a question I had specifically regarding abiogenesis (which was his primary .

I put an abridged copy of the communications up on ATS at the time, too. Here's the link but you may wish to read the whole thread. It wasn't long.

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: chr0naut

Because of the current diversity of life and the differences in transcription between different domains, it is rational to assume that there must have been multiple, unconnected, abiogenetic events.

If that is true, why do all organisms share a common core of DNA elements? Transcription, different domains comes much later in the process. It's the common elements that tell us that we have a common ancestry - regardless how many times it started.

Personally, I don't think it's thermodynamically efficient to do the same thing over and over. If nature did that, we would have a multitude of organisms with fundamentally different genetics, unrelated to ours. To our knowledge, we don't see that in nature.

Transcription is theorised to have preceeded DNA using 'RNA like' fragments directly (like in virii).

RNA world From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: chr0naut

Because of the current diversity of life and the differences in transcription between different domains, it is rational to assume that there must have been multiple, unconnected, abiogenetic events.

How do you draw that conclusions when diversity is a result of evolution? You made a point of saying that abiogenesis and evolution are unrelated. But diversity didn't arise from abiogenesis. If it did, we would see different fundamental building blocks for some organisms and we don't. Diversity is a direct result of evolution and speciation.

But they are all also made of atoms. The idea that the common building block = common universal ancestor is unsupported by science or reason. Consider that the Australian Aboriginals painted with ochre as did the Neandethals in France. It would be insanity to assume an artistic connection or influence between them. The same building block merely indicates that the material is superior to all others for the task, not that there is a connection. Ditto for evolution.

Multiple unrelated abiogenetic events are most likely to produce a diversity but would favour certain materials, scenarios and processes because they simply happen to be better suited.

Several have suggested that multiple abiogenetic events are only theoretical. A single abiogenetic event is also theoretical, and far less reasonable.

I am not arguing that evolution is a source of biological diversity, it is, but suggesting that is is the ONLY source is preposterous.

Totally illogical and unproven. If you were an explorer on another planet and you determined that all organisms utilized the same four base pairs as their fundamental genetic building blocks, what would be your first conclusion? You're so far off the mark it isn't even funny any more. And yes, they have atoms in common as well - not that it has anything to do with the logic of the event itself.

A scientist would assume the most likely event given the evidence. Yes, anything is possible - one life-forming event or multiple events. But the logic of a single event along with the evidence of common components at the very least says that all life has common building blocks. Whether it happened once, twice or a million times with the same components is irrelevant - although I still think that multiple events is thermodynamically inefficient.

Diversity comes from evolution. There's no evidence that multiple life-forming events is partially or in whole responsible for diversity. And none of the citations you posted endorse that position with evidence. It's simply speculation.

You previously asked what another form of life would look like here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I answered here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

You would have to demonstrate that there are organisms on this planet that don't conform to common ancestry. The organism's genetic structure (if it had one that was detectable) would be sufficiently unlike anything else on the planet that we could say it was unrelated to any other known life form. For instance, if an organism was identified that utilized nucleotides similar to d5SICS and dNaM (these are artificial nucleotides that don't occur in nature), then we could say that there's at least one organism that must have been formed by a unique event. However, to date, no organism has been identified that could clearly be labeled as unique and totally unrelated to other life forms on this planet. As explained previously, common ancestry is based on the observation that all life on this planet utilizes the same set of nucleotides to evolve its own life form. Nature goes through a trial and error process, but there's no reason to believe that it's redunant. That would be thermodynamically inefficient and a waste of energy. Actually, I take paragraph 2 back to a certain extent - I recall that there is a sea creature that was discovered a few years ago that has a very different genetic structure - doesn't use the same set of nucleotides (I think). I'll see if I can find the article. That could be an example of a new life form from a unique event.

You never responded or challenged what I described. So what is your response?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: chr0naut

Because of the current diversity of life and the differences in transcription between different domains, it is rational to assume that there must have been multiple, unconnected, abiogenetic events.

If that is true, why do all organisms share a common core of DNA elements? Transcription, different domains comes much later in the process. It's the common elements that tell us that we have a common ancestry - regardless how many times it started.

Personally, I don't think it's thermodynamically efficient to do the same thing over and over. If nature did that, we would have a multitude of organisms with fundamentally different genetics, unrelated to ours. To our knowledge, we don't see that in nature.

Transcription is theorised to have preceeded DNA using 'RNA like' fragments directly (like in virii).

RNA world From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wrong again as that has absolutely nothing to do with abiogenesis. The difference between DNA and RNA is one base and a one less hydroxyl group in DNA. Has nothing to do with how life came about. And the difference between uracil and thymine is one methyl group in the 5th position on the pyrimidine ring. If RNA came before DNA, which it probably did, the same argument would apply - the same chemical process and components are utilized by all organisms on this planet.

You have yet to prove your position and the papers you have cited are not supported your claim in any form whatsoever.

That dude is STILL going with the apologetic stuff? Dude, your religion is based on FAITH. Questioning abiogenesis when there is more evidence for that than there is for god is a bit silly. And no matter how "crazy" you think the odds are for life developing (and honestly you don't know that the original cells required all 4 of those things), the odds are MUCH MUCH MUCH more ridiculous that an all powerful god just magically happened to always exist with no origin.

a reply to: chr0naut

And do they support your ideas? Or are you just quoting them? Because I would bet they do not support you

a reply to: chr0naut

So you are pretty much unqualified to comment on the validity of the science. On top of that, you can not discern the appropriate papers to back your ideas. By yours, you are quoting others.