Democrats and Free Trade

What I don't understand about the democratic/liberal policies is there stance on trade deals around the world. They openly support Nafta, and tried to push through the Asia trade deal in secrecy. So in effect, they promote big industries off shoring jobs because to them it's all an open world, open border policy.

This goes against many other facets of the liberal belief system that it creates hypocrisy right from the get go. For instance, how in the world can it be "environmentally councious" to ship such things as steel, raw materials, crude oil, and many other dangerous things across the oceans. Talk about creating a carbon footprint!!

In my neck of the woods (GTA) I work in a steel mill outside Toronto. We make construction steel products such as rebar, channel, and angle in various lengths and thicknesses. It's a very clean process as we melt scrap metal (steel is the most recyclable material on the plant) instead of using coking coal and iron ore. We use electricity to melt the scrap which is the most efficient and cleanest way to do it, we have stringent baghouse emission standards to adhere to as well as safety protocols.

The point of my story is that a major highway is being built through the greater Toronto area called the 407, and none of our steel is being used. That is liberal policies for you. We will bring these masssive ships from Turkey and CHina across the ocean, through the St. Lawrence river, into the Great Lakes, and to a deep port in Oshawa and use that steel instead of our own.

That is what a trade deal gets you, how in the world is it cheaper for all that to happen, when my steel mill is less than 10 km from the highway! Maybe because they're communist, subsidize electricity costs and transportation costs, pay the workers nothing, provide no safety to the workers and no consideration for the environment openly polluting.

So which is, fighting climate change and reducing carbon footprint, or open trade and killing the middle class and the environment?

Liberals tend to over look uncomfortable truths, I predict your question will go unanswered.

a reply to: ColaTesla

Not to mention the fact that our mill has been on half capacity since 2009, so with a stroke of Justin's pen or Wynne's pen they could create 200 jobs that start at 65k a year, pension, full benefits including 100 percent dental and a starting pay rate of 24.50

We've hired 50 people over the last 2 years and one simple mindset change could create 200 plus more middle class jobs (families)

The people who want free trade are messed up. Sure, it is alright to have free trade if you are selling your products and your people are all working and making a living wage. But these blind people can't see that that is not happening. China probably has more US money than the middle class has. I think people need to open up their eyes and see the truth. We have many delusional people who are blind to the truth that this country's economic security is spiraling down like our toilets.

But these people strongly believe they are right and will not listen to reason. Sure, Trump may be a jerk and he may not have everything right, but at least he has the guts to try to make our country right again. They have had Nafta around for a while, it isn't working, China owns over a trillion bucks worth of our debt, a lot of people are out of work or working part time and making just enough to barely live, but they have lower phone bills now than five years ago. It doesn't work, we need to start producing some of the things we use. The GNP doesn't look bad because they have changed how they rate it, including rent now in it and the big military providers are making megabucks which brings up the numbers. The rich are getting richer and so are the countries producing the things we consume.

a reply to: ADUB77

Bad trade deals, subsidies and big corporate waste aren't just liberal policies. Republicans also support these same kind of deals as long as they get to profit from them too.

Other than that slight correction I'd pretty much agree with what you're saying.

Also, it's more of a Neo-Liberal thing you're talking about than a classical Liberal thing.

a reply to: ADUB77

If everyone looses good paying job, they will be on social services and depend on that. Dems are traditionally pro social services.

How about we stop labeling and blaming peoples political stances.. it's not the political stance.. it's both sides of the fence... it's previously elected figures.... it's not all the democrats fault... or all the republicans fault.. but it is your governments fault, stop blaming party lines, stop dividing yourselves and wearing rose-tinted glasses....

a reply to: seasonal

That is another conversation all together but a good point none the less. What the heart of the question is, and one I converse with my friends about a lot is, how can the Public sector be bigger than the Private sector?

The general person knows no distinction between a public sector union and a private sector union.

To all my teacher friends, and paramedics and cops and nurses and all civil servants with the golden plates pensions, who is paying you?

Who is paying you?

a reply to: zGrimReapah

What are you talking about? George Soros is a top contributor to the Dems

Do a little research before you post

a reply to: ADUB77
NAFTA is supported by Big Business, who get people elected. I don't think it has anything to do with Democrats. Just like TPP, if people knew about it, they would be opposed, but Big Business keeps it outside of earshot, you know, the guys who own the Media.

a reply to: ugmold

You're right for sure but it just so happened this time that big business was betting on a democrat and she lost.

It's a clear sign the people don't want open trade and open borders

Once the world is open to free trade, the Globalists will be able to buy up all profitable businesses and put the smaller boys out of business.

The NWO will be embraced by the Snowflakes and those reaching the end of their careers, will probably end it working for one of the global organisations.

But it's okay, it's what being civilised is all about.

a reply to: Cobaltic1978

You're so right it is scary. All the steel mills in Canada are foreign owned already and have consolidated into billion dollar global corporations.

a reply to: ADUB77

I can't prove this, but some of those you talk about in the sentence that I pasted below, are some of the only groups of workers that's pay have sort of kept up with inflation. Usually govt jobs pay better than private sector.

You should be asking why has pay been stagnant for 35 years.While a certain section of the US earners have gotten very rich.

To all my teacher friends, and paramedics and cops and nurses and all civil servants with the golden plates pensions, who is paying you? Who is paying you?

a reply to: seasonal

There's no doubt income hasn't risen in either sector match inflation. That is another question as you said and it's a very good question!

My point was that once the private sector is shrunk/gone (Detroit) how do we pay for social services?

...as you here only 50 percent of lights work in Detroit and it takes 2 hours for an ambulance and probably costs 5000k

What I'm afraid of is, if our private sector doesn't rebound then we will not enjoy the social services we are used to in Canada,especially as the baby boomers age we are going to need high paying middle class private sector jobs for the good of everyone

a reply to: ADUB77

Well are you for tariffs to return companies to the US?

Of course these companies yearly increases in profits will be slightly less, but they will again grow the middle class.

a reply to: ADUB77

I don't know of any "liberals" who are in favour of NAFTA and who don't think it's a complete and utter joke of a failure... exactly what they thought it would end up being when all this started back in the late 80's early 90's.

Were you too young to remember all the protests in Canada by the Liberal and NDP parties, the trade unions, etc back then ?


And by the way:

NAFTA was started by president George Bush Sr (republican) and Brian Mulroney (conservative), and was finally signed and enacted after Bush left office and Clinton took his place. In fact, Bush tried to fast track the agreement before the end of his term.

NAFTA was the conservatives little baby in the both US and Canada.



Free trade agreements like NAFTA, TPP, TTIP.... are all corporate controlled creations that benefit their own agendas, and have absolutely nothing to do with the average Joe schmuck on the street. We, the Joe Schmucks of the world, always end up getting screwed over by this stuff.

Corporate puppets on both sides of the fence (conservatives AND liberals) froth at the mouth over these type of agreements.

The important key words here being: corporate puppets

Nothing to do with politics and everything to do with multi-national business agendas.




Your brainwashed political pigeon-holing favourite flavour of koolaid has failed you miserably.

1. Republicans supported NAFTA too. It passed with bipartisan support in Congress, and even more Congressional Republicans voted for it than Congressional Democrats. And Republicans have controlled Congress multiple times since NAFTA was passed, yet they never revoked it nor even renegotiated it. In fact, they've helped push through other free trade deals too (along with some Democrats). So don't try to make free trade seem to be a strictly liberal thing.

2. The contradiction you laid out comes from the difference between progressivism and neoliberalism. America's progressives tend to push for climate change legislation, green technology, and the such. Neoliberals, on the other hand, believe in economic freedom, which includes things like free trade. As you can probably guess, the powerbrokers in the Democratic Party, Republican Party, and Libertarian Party all follow neoliberalism.

This is why the Democratic controlled Congress of Pres Obama's first 2 years passed no national climate change legislation (note: the House of Representatives passed "Cap and Trade" legislation, but the Democratic controlled Senate refused to pass it). Pres Obama's neoliberal administration has actively ignored progressives by ramping up fracking, selling more licenses for energy exploration, and helping push oil pipelines while we were distracted by the Keystone pipeline. This is also why national Democrats and Republicans have been negotiating other free trade agreements, regardless of what any activists may say about it.

Hope this helps.

a reply to: CranialSponge

I voted NDP just so you know

a reply to: ADUB77
I truly hope Trump somehow shuts down TPP. I'm not holding my breath.