Free will or Predestination....

For the purpose of discussing the difference in choices. In other words, I am not stating "let us reject the notion of hell", I was saying, for my example, let us not tackle that subject yet and deal with the concept of free-moral-agency.

There are those alive who have exercised their free-will decision to believe and love God for the sake of loving Him. They have decided that the act of loving God as their Creator is so right and so fulfilling that the question of consequence does not play into their decision. They cannot conceive any longer of not partaking in this unconditional love.

So belief in God, and adoration of Him is not dependent on the concept of Hell. Hell is not required to believe.

Concepts of Hell:

I hope that you will actively participate in what I am about to ask you to consider. I hope that you can go to a quiet place, where you can have a modicum of silence and isolation.

Close your eyes - even better, turn out the lights and then close your eyes. And as you sit there in the total darkness, imagine that all around you - saturating the darkness more than the darkness has saturated your life - that there is NO light, that there will be NO light EVER again. Imagine, in this eternal darkness now, that all GOODNESS as been removed - don't open your eyes! There is absolutely NOTHING but lack of goodness, we don't even have to call it evil, just lack of goodness all around you...forever. The darkest fears, loneliness, complete isolation, complete and utter realization that there is NO GOOD around you.

This is hard to do, because as yet, and hopefully never, you have not experienced a complete lack of God's presence. You have enjoyed the presence of goodness without naming it, or believing it, or loving it, but you have never ever been denied it. It has been there with you, and even in the darkest days of your life, you have known it was there...the light, the goodness, the hope. But it's gone now, forever.

No one need dream up any worse hell than this for me. To be left...to myself...with nothing to save me from the darkness, the aloneness, the fear, the feeling of absolute lack of goodness. That all that may be around me, seen or unseen, in the darkness...is evil (devoid of good).

I agree. "hell" should be considered. I for one do not choose to live any portion of my life corporeal or ethereal without the love of God in it.

We have free will to pursue what and who we want; good and evil are on the plate, we eat what we want.
the absolutes God set forth in the Bible guide us to the good portions on that plate.
I think that if one has faith and belief in the Lord, one need not worry on the seeming paradox between Predestination/Free will. the mind of God is not like our way of thinking- we can not begin to assume the breadth of knowledge he wields over the universe He created.

On Hell. Imagine you are 4 years old in the shopping mall and your mom disapears-it sounds simple in comparision, but that first dread fear of lonelines and isolation from the source of your life seems like a good(if not simple) analogy....

I LOVE your analogy. That "I'm lost" "I'm alone" "Mommy! Daddy!" feeling...forever.

BUT, I do take issue with other statements (I don't mean that argumentative, I mean for discussion).

Earlier in the thread I tried to get some one to give me THEIR definition of free-will, I don't think I ever got it. That is unfortunate because that is what this whole thread is about.

You stated that we have our choices, and made an analogy of it all being laid out before us to be partook, or not. But then went on to say that "if we love God" freewill/predestination is inconsequential (I'm paraphrasing so correct me if I have misstated your intentions.)

I propose that the OPPOSITE of what you stated here is true: That as long as we believe and love God, which is our exercising of a free-will, the choices 1.) become easier to make correctly, 2.) become less consequential.

I'm going to take the time to clarify MY view on the definition of free-moral-agency (freewill):

freewill is necessarily choice
choice is NOT necessarily freewill

angels have the power of choice
angels do NOT have the power of freewill

choice requires sentience
freewill requires a spirit/soul

Originally posted by Valhall
I LOVE your analogy. That "I'm lost" "I'm alone" "Mommy! Daddy!" feeling...forever.

BUT, I do take issue with other statements (I don't mean that argumentative, I mean for discussion).

Earlier in the thread I tried to get some one to give me THEIR definition of free-will, I don't think I ever got it. That is unfortunate because that is what this whole thread is about.

You stated that we have our choices, and made an analogy of it all being laid out before us to be partook, or not. But then went on to say that "if we love God" freewill/predestination is inconsequential (I'm paraphrasing so correct me if I have misstated your intentions.)

I propose that the OPPOSITE of what you stated here is true: That as long as we believe and love God, which is our exercising of a free-will, the choices 1.) become easier to make correctly, 2.) become less consequential.

I'm going to take the time to clarify MY view on the definition of free-moral-agency (freewill):

freewill is necessarily choice
choice is NOT necessarily freewill

angels have the power of choice
angels do NOT have the power of freewill

choice requires sentience
freewill requires a spirit/soul

Thanx for the analogy props...and yes, I was not saying that if one is faithful and believing, free will becomes on no consequence, merely the promise of reward for belief and faith allow true freedom from worry. Once you accept Christ as your savoir, I believe your name is written in the book of life, never to be erased. I hope I am clearer.....
I must disagree on your point concerning the angels. God obviously gave them freedom to use thier own wills- if this were not true, Lucifer would have still been in heaven singing with the rest of the choir worshipping God instead of battling Him as he does now. He exerted free will to challenge and battle God. the portion of angels who chose to leave with him did the same....

no no no..

That is what I am trying to clarify. The angels did NOT exercise free-will, they exercised choice. Choice to obey, or disobey. This is NOT freewill, it is choice.

This is VERY important to the discussion. We possess something that the angels are envious of - they watch us and wonder at why it is God gave us this gift, and not them.

That gift is free-will. Above and beyond the choice to be obedient or disobedient. This no longer is "action-based", but spirit-based. Commitment-based. Soul-based.

The angels canNOT exercise the ability to BELIEVE in GOD on faith. They KNOW him. The ability to exercise free-will comes from NOT having evidence, NOT knowing Him. That is why, when I read or hear some one state they they are trying to KNOW God, or KNOW the mind of God I shudder inside.

I do NOT want to KNOW God, not until the time comes that I am given the opportunity to turn in my freewill for the knowledge. And that is basically what one is doing when they believe: I am asking that my name be written on the list to turn in my freewill at the end of this life. In exchange, KNOWLEDGE of God. Undeniable verification of God.

The angel's KNOW GOD EXISTS, therefore they do NOT have free-moral-agency. They can choose to be disobedient (the fallen angels), but they cannot choose to stop believing in the existence of God, because they have seen the evidence...He's right there! The Deceiver believes in God, He's got a LOT of evidence...God's boot in his butt!

Originally posted by Valhall
no no no..

That is what I am trying to clarify. The angels did NOT exercise free-will, they exercised choice. Choice to obey, or disobey. This is NOT freewill, it is choice.

This is VERY important to the discussion. We possess something that the angels are envious of - they watch us and wonder at why it is God gave us this gift, and not them.

That gift is free-will. Above and beyond the choice to be obedient or disobedient. This no longer is "action-based", but spirit-based. Commitment-based. Soul-based.

The angels canNOT exercise the ability to BELIEVE in GOD on faith. They KNOW him. The ability to exercise free-will comes from NOT having evidence, NOT knowing Him. That is why, when I read or hear some one state they they are trying to KNOW God, or KNOW the mind of God I shudder inside.

I do NOT want to KNOW God, not until the time comes that I am given the opportunity to turn in my freewill for the knowledge. And that is basically what one is doing when they believe: I am asking that my name be written on the list to turn in my freewill at the end of this life. In exchange, KNOWLEDGE of God. Undeniable verification of God.

The angel's KNOW GOD EXISTS, therefore they do NOT have free-moral-agency. They can choose to be disobedient (the fallen angels), but they cannot choose to stop believing in the existence of God, because they have seen the evidence...He's right there! The Deceiver believes in God, He's got a LOT of evidence...God's boot in his butt!

I personally think that alot of things are relative to interpretation.....

regards
seekerof

Though, in large part Valhall, I do tend to agree with your 'angel' explanation.

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Valhall
For the purpose of discussing the difference in choices. In other words, I am not stating "let us reject the notion of hell", I was saying, for my example, let us not tackle that subject yet and deal with the concept of free-moral-agency.

There are those alive who have exercised their free-will decision to believe and love God for the sake of loving Him. They have decided that the act of loving God as their Creator is so right and so fulfilling that the question of consequence does not play into their decision. They cannot conceive any longer of not partaking in this unconditional love.

So belief in God, and adoration of Him is not dependent on the concept of Hell. Hell is not required to believe.

Concepts of Hell:

I hope that you will actively participate in what I am about to ask you to consider. I hope that you can go to a quiet place, where you can have a modicum of silence and isolation.

Close your eyes - even better, turn out the lights and then close your eyes. And as you sit there in the total darkness, imagine that all around you - saturating the darkness more than the darkness has saturated your life - that there is NO light, that there will be NO light EVER again. Imagine, in this eternal darkness now, that all GOODNESS as been removed - don't open your eyes! There is absolutely NOTHING but lack of goodness, we don't even have to call it evil, just lack of goodness all around you...forever. The darkest fears, loneliness, complete isolation, complete and utter realization that there is NO GOOD around you.

This is hard to do, because as yet, and hopefully never, you have not experienced a complete lack of God's presence. You have enjoyed the presence of goodness without naming it, or believing it, or loving it, but you have never ever been denied it. It has been there with you, and even in the darkest days of your life, you have known it was there...the light, the goodness, the hope. But it's gone now, forever.

No one need dream up any worse hell than this for me. To be left...to myself...with nothing to save me from the darkness, the aloneness, the fear, the feeling of absolute lack of goodness. That all that may be around me, seen or unseen, in the darkness...is evil (devoid of good).

I agree. "hell" should be considered. I for one do not choose to live any portion of my life corporeal or ethereal without the love of God in it.

Are you saying that you don't believe in Hell in the afterlife but not choosing to love God puts you in your own empty Hell during life?

No, I am not saying I don't believe in hell. But I am saying that I do not necessarily accept the religious description of it. My thoughts were only for consideration. My personal belief is in an ethereal existence as I have described, not a place of "eternal physical torture."

Yes, I do believe that not having a relationship with God can make this life empty (or at least not fulfilled)...but not hell on earth.

I was going to discuss point by point what you all have discussed, but I decided to just cut and paste my lecture in a religious retreat back in 2001.

"My topics for the night are:

1. FREE WILL
2. OUTLINES TO KNOW GOD (Conversation between God and Satan)
3. THE PHYSICAL DEATH OF JESUS

But before we continue, I would like to asks all of you to meditate for one minute of silence on the shortest verse on the Bible, which is John chapter 11 verse 35: and it says “Jesus wept”. Knowing that Jesus knows about resurrection and that Jesus knows he could resurrect Lazarus, yet he wept, meaning he cried out loudly, for the death of Lazarus. This tells us how much he loves us and how he hates death.

Thank you.

Some philosophies deny the existence of free will, therefore, also the existence of God. As all of us here believe in God. I will not, therefore, belabor the validity of whether or not there is such a thing as Free Will, but more so to concentrate on what Free Will is. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to give a short background discussion:

BACKGROUND

Free will is normally defined by traditional philosophy as a concept that believes that human behavior and/or action is the result of choices made by the subject or “agent” and is absolutely not determined by external causes. This then puts the burden of responsibility for the result of such actions or behavior on the “doer”, “actor” or “agent”

We must understand that free will requires the agent or subject have more than one option or course of action to take. This free will is not “totally” free. There are pre-conditions that must be met. Freedom as defined here, is limited.

A few modern day philosophers reject the idea that free will exists at all by definition. And to suggest a “limited” freedom is a contradiction in terms in itself. They argue that for something to be free presupposes that it is not bound by any laws, and that it is a will presupposes that it is non-random and thus bound by some kind of laws. This makes the notion of free will a contradiction in terms.

I strongly disagree. To state that to be free, something “must not be bound by some kind of laws”, and if it does, it must not be free. Their mere statement violates their premise. .

Even the word “Free” is bounded by some kind of laws. For one: Free relegates the idea or concept that there cannot be any exchange of any value for what was obtained, be it abstract or concrete. Nothing must have been given up. The previous statements I just mentioned are some kind of laws that define and limit the word free, therefore makes the argument made modern philosophers invalid.

WHAT LIMITS FREE WILL?

As we all understand that there are no absolutes, so it goes with free will. Take for instance of my free will to take illicit drugs. Even though I have the freedom to do so, I have no inclination to take illegal drugs. There are currently innumerable options I could choose to do right now but have no inclination of doing them, i.e. I could choose to write, sit, walk, lift this table beside me, go to the toilet, go to the moon, eat, etc., etc., thus, for me to exercise my free will, I must have the inclination or desire. And even if I have the desire to do them, but nonetheless do not have the drugs, do not have a spaceship to take me to the moon, no food around me, as they are upstairs, we could therefore surmise that there must not be any barrier in order for me to exercise my free will. I could choose to lift this table like I said, but I do not have the strength to do so. I could choose to lift this table all I want, but I do not have the power or strength to do so. Free will requires the successful completion of your action. Therefore, we could deduce that free will can be limited by internal and external influences.

PRE-DESTINY (next part coming up)

FREE WILL PART II

PRE-DESTINY

Other philosophers deny the existence of free will if one would consider pre-destiny valid. More, they deny the existence of God by considering that God by definition (Christian definition) is omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscient (all knowing). They claim that since God knows yesterday, today and tomorrow, all of God’s actions are pre-determined, consequently have no free will. I consider this argument invalid. This argument fails to recognize the eternity. Yesterday, today and tomorrow is one, is today, is now. This argument is confined to the linear concept of time and space.

There are other fields of philosophy that talks about free will: We have the Determinism, Naturalism, Empiricism, Libertarianism and others, but mostly a slight variations of what I have already discussed. Others even raise the question of infants as to whether they have free will or not. They consider their (infants’) choices to be neurochemical reactions in the human brain. That said, they then consider whether people who are mentally imbalanced or insane could have free will. Traditional libertarians consider children must be of the right age before they have free will. Even early Christian philosophers, such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, considered infants, young children and imbeciles, as lacking in control or understanding, not lacking in some metaphysical entity needed for free acts. The Roman Catholic Church allows only children over the age of 7 to go to confession and have communion.

EVERYONE HAS FREE WILL

There is free will and there is God! Even though I accept the fact that existence of God is not necessary for man to determine what is Good and what is Evil. I accept that existence of God is not necessary for man to determine what is morally right and what is morally wrong. But I do believe in God. Man can determine those standards by the fruit or result of his actions through the exercise of his free will and by other means man learns, i.e. examination of empirical data, through authority, experience/experimentation.

FREE WILL DEFINED

Everyone has free will, even the infant child, even the imbecile.

Free will is “the tendency of man to do GOOD”.

No, this definition does not violate that there must be more than one option or course of action for man to make. The options or choices exist, but GOOD things are favored in the selection. When I said GOOD, I did not mean morally right or morally wrong. I meant GOOD as perceived by the “doer”.

Some may argue, “If GOOD is a selection, then the other must be BAD or EVIL, and if man only does what is GOOD, then therefore, there is no choice, there is no FREE WILL”, therefore my definition of FREE WILL must be flawed.

Murders, rape, kidnapping and other crimes and sins happen, so we know that man does not always do what is GOOD. I agree. In the statement above, I said the “tendency”. Nevertheless, man always do what he perceives is GOOD. It is never a choice to do what is BAD or EVIL and what is GOOD.

Murders, rape, kidnapping and other crimes and sins happen, so we know that man does not always do what is GOOD. I agree. In the statement above, I said the “tendency”. Nevertheless, man always do what he perceives is GOOD. It is never a choice to do what is BAD or EVIL and what is GOOD.

•Consider an infant trying to reach for flame of a candle.
•Consider a man holding a gun pointing it on another man saying, “I will avenged my sister you raped”
•Consider a high school student trying to cut classes to watch a movie.

part iii COMING UP

PART III - LAST

We could all recognize that each instance on the example behavior I mentioned above is possible exercise in free will. If all the actions above are consummated or completed, then we recognize that the actions are BAD or EVIL and therefore not GOOD; therefore not congruent with the definition of free will I have just given.

The truth is that each action above is true exercise of free will.

•The infant oblivious of the heat of the candle flame considers the brightly moving flame attractive and thinks touching it to be GOOD thing to do.
•The man with a gun considers it GOOD to avenge his raped sister.
•The high school student considers watching a movie a GOOD thing than going to school.

If doing BAD or EVIL and doing GOOD is the result of the same tendency, how is man going to resolve the difference between BAD or EVIL and GOOD if they all look GOOD to the “doer”?
SATAN IS CUNNING

Haven’t some people say, “Why does it always feel good to do BAD or EVIL things?” and “If it feels good, do it”. We must remember that Satan is cunning! BAD or EVIL will not knock on the door of your free will as BAD or EVIL.

Ponder for a moment a man knocking on your front door saying, “Please open up, I am a robber and killer, I plan to rob and kill you, please open you door”. Would you open the door for him? Of course not. You will exercise your free will to do what is GOOD. If the robber and killer is true, he would probably knock and say something else that you would consider to be good like that he has “special offer” for you and that he is a salesman, or a relative and maybe even pretend to be a policeman. And if you open the door, you are exercising your free will to do what is GOOD.

The same with EVIL, it knocks on the door of your free will as GOOD.

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL

Since both appear to be GOOD, how could man discern the difference? First, let us define what GOOD is:

•”GOOD is anything that gives lasting happiness or joy”

By definition, TRUE GOOD is more on the long run happiness than short run one. Evil normally gives happiness that is short run. I have observed that evil actions normally give quite a “rush” of feelings. They normally are “shiny” and “flashy” in terms of the GOOD it gives the “doer” to blind you from the truth and always is short run.

Going back to our three examples:

•The happiness the infant got in touching the flame is short run, but the burn on the hand last long
•The vengeful feeling the man that killed the rapist had subsided immediately upon the death of the rapist. It gave, if ever, a short euphoric feeling, but to be faced with reality of jail, his failure to help his family and kids financially since he is in jail, etc.
•The student finished watching the movie, never finished high school and got only low paying jobs.

Looking at the examples I have given, it is easy to see how free will could be exercised, as it exists and defined herein. Remember, it is choice of GOOD things; it is the knowledge of which one is really GOOD by the length of happiness resulting from the choice. But then, like helping people, which is universally accepted as a GOOD thing to do, you could choose to help only one person, but could also choose to help two or more. Both choices are GOOD and therefore by the other definition of free will that more than one option, course of action or choice must exists, is also satisfied, even with the definition that free will is the “tendency to do what is GOOD.”

One could not discount the fact that prayers and the Holy Spirit to guide us in our daily lives, help in our choices. It is true, TRUTH will set us FREE!#

This troubled me for a very long time since I felt that God would have not let me have the pain and suffering I've had in life if he really loved me. I felt I'd rather have never had the choice and just been an automaton because I felt humans weren't worth the bother, but that's because He was giving me the choice to choose to feel that way and to learn from it.

But I realised, that along with the bad, there where things that had happend that have made me who I am, and have made me extremely happy (finding the true love of my life for example) BECAUSE of the pain and problems. If I had never been ill, I'd have never ended up meeting my other half again after nearly 6 years, and we'd have never met since we were so different in any other way.

So, some things IMO are pre-determined, but they weigh out in the end, and you will always have no more than you can bear, because the last thing He wants is for you to die without finding Him. But he gives us free will to decide to follow him or not, that is where free will comes into it. Ultimately he might know if you are good or bad, but the journey through your life is what is important. That's why I never ever try and convert people in life, because I think its a personal issue - you will find Him when you are ready and while I can offer advice based on my personal opinion and my journey, the one you have will be completely different and it is PERSONAL, it is FREE WILL to choose, no one else should have the authority to convince you otherwise, so cults and so forth really bother me.

I read somewhere once something that has always made me think its very possibly true: that it was more important to have done a bad thing and feel remorse and sorrow and to have to ask for forgiveness and to be tormented if you can't find that than it would be to have never done the deed in the first place because you've never had the OPTION to have done it.

So, I believe the will is free in LIFE but ultimately, he will know if you are on his side or not. Allegiance may, in your opinion change over the years, but ultimately He will always know you for who you are inside and love you nonetheless, that's the most important thing.

It's a bit like Jesus' quotes on the cross. He at one point asked if there were another way, but He did it anyway, because although He had a choice, He believed in God and trusted that while He had suffered and been humiliated, ultimately there would be no way He would change as a person inside and thats why God did it that way and He trusted Him as a person to let Ha'Satan try it on in the desert.

Just my theory, but its the one I choose to believe and as I've said, I've HATED God in my time, and I've been through a variety of religions but I keep coming back to Him and that I can't ignore.

All I can say is WOW !!!!

While this debate will certainly not be solved here, What a great thread and I have seen many intelligent points made by several different posters.

I personally believe the concept in Predestiantion. Here are few verses to ponder:
-------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

6. to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

7. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

8. which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

9. He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

10. with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

11. also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

12. to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

13. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

14. who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here are a few more:

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
------------------------------------------------------

This is an age old debate going back hundreds of years. I am certainly not trying to convince anyone to think along my wavelength, but He did choose me first... That's why I believe in Predestiantion in it's simplest form.

I think by seperating the definitions of choice - free will - predestination - as some you already have, I think a lot of insight can be obtained!!!

But once again, regardless of your opinion on this topic, I would certainly like to see more thoughts on it.

Very Deep Indeed