Does "time" really exist?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: TzarChasm

Basically if awareness is an illusion then we are not aware of ourselves.

Awareness is not the illusion. Awareness is the experience. Awareness of the awareness is the illusion.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: TzarChasm

Basically if awareness is an illusion then we are not aware of ourselves.

Awareness is not the illusion. Awareness is the experience. Awareness of the awareness is the illusion.

Annnnnd down the rabbit hole we go.

No time to say hello, good bye, I'm late, I'm late, I'm late.

a reply to: dfnj2015

If awareness is an illusion then you are not aware of yourself.

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: alphabetaone

The illusion is that gravity does not exist, it is the masses affect on the space-time fabric that creates this illusion of gravity.. x.x

In reality, the object moving toward the bigger object, is merely the object rolling down the space-time fabric that is being manipulated by the mass.

We call this gravity.

Gravity exists because we have a name for the effect that a large object has on a smaller object. It is nothing close to illusion.

If that's the tack that you want to take, then you can say life is an illusion, as are all other inter-connected lives universally and not a thing is real. This is the anti-thesis of evolution and life in general. If all of these concepts were mere illusions, then questioning it in the "real-world" has absolutely no significance as the outcome is also an "illusion".

No, again, whatever nomenclature anyone deems fit for these well known concepts, they are not illusions because we can experience them.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: dfnj2015

If awareness is an illusion then you are not aware of yourself.

If it were not for self-delusion, and my awareness of it, I would not have anything meaningful to say!

originally posted by: alphabetaone

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: alphabetaone

The illusion is that gravity does not exist, it is the masses affect on the space-time fabric that creates this illusion of gravity.. x.x

In reality, the object moving toward the bigger object, is merely the object rolling down the space-time fabric that is being manipulated by the mass.

We call this gravity.

Gravity exists because we have a name for the effect that a large object has on a smaller object. It is nothing close to illusion.

If that's the tack that you want to take, then you can say life is an illusion, as are all other inter-connected lives universally and not a thing is real. This is the anti-thesis of evolution and life in general. If all of these concepts were mere illusions, then questioning it in the "real-world" has absolutely no significance as the outcome is also an "illusion".

No, again, whatever nomenclature anyone deems fit for these well known concepts, they are not illusions because we can experience them.

Well, the illision is that it's the larger mass that is attracting the smaller mass.

In reality this is not the case, the smaller mass is rolling down the indention of space-time fabric that is caused by the larger mass.

So the illusion is not "gravity" as a word in and of itself.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: TzarChasm

Basically if awareness is an illusion then we are not aware of ourselves.

Awareness is not the illusion. Awareness is the experience. Awareness of the awareness is the illusion.

Actually, if you want to be ultra-specific about it, the awareness of being aware, should be the textbook definition of consciousness.

Just because you see something on the side of the road doesn't make you conscious, taking note of the fact THAT you noticed something on the side of the road is conscious.

a reply to: dfnj2015

If it were not for self-delusion, and my awareness of it

It's either real or it is not.

If it's a "fake" awareness you wouldn't be "aware" of talking to me. There's nothing.

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: alphabetaone

The illusion is that gravity does not exist, it is the masses affect on the space-time fabric that creates this illusion of gravity.. x.x

In reality, the object moving toward the bigger object, is merely the object rolling down the space-time fabric that is being manipulated by the mass.

We call this gravity.

Is gravity a property of matter or a force generated by some unknown process. Don't give me the standard answer. I want you to guess which way you think it might be.

a reply to: DeadCat

If you're witnessing the smaller object travelling toward a larger object then it is not illusion

il·lu·sion
iˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
noun: illusion; plural noun: illusions
a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

So, unless one is having perception issues, then it is not an illusion.

Why when we drop a baseball does it fall to the floor and not to the ceiling? Because the real (not illusionary) effect of gravity is being witnessed.

originally posted by: dfnj2015

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: alphabetaone

The illusion is that gravity does not exist, it is the masses affect on the space-time fabric that creates this illusion of gravity.. x.x

In reality, the object moving toward the bigger object, is merely the object rolling down the space-time fabric that is being manipulated by the mass.

We call this gravity.

Is gravity a property of matter or a force generated by some unknown process. Don't give me the standard answer. I want you to guess which way you think it might be.

It's a force, but not some "unknown process", at least not unknown to myself.

I'm going to edit to add to my own response here that, while it IS a force, I'm going to say there is a curvature much in the same way that Einstein described his theory of relativity, that plays a part in the space-time with respect to gravity. The most common example of THAT would likely be a black hole.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I'll answer your question indirectly... somewhat..

In a nut shell.

Einstein field equations basically states this:

"Mass tells space how to bend, space tells mass how to move."

So what we get when we are seeing gravity is that a large mass is telling space-time to bend.. And that bend is telling the smaller mass how to move along in space.


this is the illusion of "Mass attracting mass" when in reality it is "Mass bending space, which smaller masses move along."

a reply to: DeadCat

The keys really are the experience and awareness.

originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: DeadCat

If you're witnessing the smaller object travelling toward a larger object then it is not illusion

il·lu·sion
iˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
noun: illusion; plural noun: illusions
a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

So, unless one is having perception issues, then it is not an illusion.

Why when we drop a baseball does it fall to the floor and not to the ceiling? Because the real (not illusionary) effect of gravity is being witnessed.

The concept of gravity is commonly wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

You are perceiving that this large mass is attracting the smaller mass. This is the wrong interpretation of what gravity truly is.

originally posted by: DeadCat

originally posted by: alphabetaone
a reply to: DeadCat

If you're witnessing the smaller object travelling toward a larger object then it is not illusion

il·lu·sion
iˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
noun: illusion; plural noun: illusions
a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

So, unless one is having perception issues, then it is not an illusion.

Why when we drop a baseball does it fall to the floor and not to the ceiling? Because the real (not illusionary) effect of gravity is being witnessed.

The concept of gravity is commonly wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

You are perceiving that this large mass is attracting the smaller mass. This is the wrong interpretation of what gravity truly is.

Ok sorry but I'm going to have to place the onus on you...

Prove it...

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: DeadCat

The keys really are the experience and awareness.

That is true to a degree...the experience...

a reply to: alphabetaone



This shows the larger mass in question. It shows how the larger mass creates a sort of indentation on the space-time fabric.

The bend that is shown, is what creates the illusion of "attraction."

In reality, it is not a type of attraction in the commonly accepted sense of attraction. The space along which objects travel is being curved due to the mass. But the mass itself is not actually creating the attraction.

Similarly, in the case of a black hole.

It is not literally a black hole.. There is a very dense and small object in the middle, not deep within it. But this mass causes an indentation in space time that is so large, we see it as a giant hole.

I believe time is a "thing" in the sense that gravity is a "thing". V=d/t is a good example of what I mean. Time is integral to both distance and velocity. It doesn't exist on it's on, like distance is meaningless without v or t.
It just is a part that we break out so we can attempt to understand reality.

a reply to: dfnj2015

I think Barbour is half-right.

If you try to get your hands on time, it's always slipping through your fingers

It's possible I'm not comprehending this statement the way it was intended... but... I almost equate that to "Time flies when you're having fun." Depending on what an individual is experiencing at any specific moment, a few minutes may "feel like" hours and hours may "feel like" minutes. As you had mentioned earlier, one can hold an apple but one cannot hold time.

My feeling is that they can't get hold of it because it isn't there at all

Again, it's certainly possible I'm not interpreting his statement the way he intended it to be interpreted... but I find that statement to be a bit overly egocentric (or human-centric). Simply because "we" cannot capture or contain or truly quantify time does not necessarily mean that time does not exist.

Our physical world (for lack of a better phrase) consists of three dimensions. We can go up/down, forward/backwards and left/right.

I consider Time a fourth dimension that, at least at the moment, "we" cannot fully measure and I think that Barbour is throwing in the towel too early. As I had started to mention earlier, "we" can essentially comprehend the Three Dimensions because we can visualize them because we can see them with our own eyes because they are physical in nature.

Time is different. It's a dimension that isn't as apparent. I think the human condition plays a large part in that because although all of our physical clocks (meaning the ones hanging on the walls) are all in unison, the "perception" of time passing is unique to each individual. That being said, regardless of clocks or individual perceptions... "Time" moves forward (at what I suspect is at a constant rate).

originally posted by: DeadCat
a reply to: alphabetaone

This shows the larger mass in question. It shows how the larger mass creates a sort of indentation on the space-time fabric.

The bend that is shown, is what creates the illusion of "attraction."

In reality, it is not a type of attraction in the commonly accepted sense of attraction. The space along which objects travel is being curved due to the mass. But the mass itself is not actually creating the attraction.

I honestly understand the theoretical concept behind gravitrons and their ability to bend space time, and trust me I'm not being difficult here, but I asked you to prove it, not to present to me a theory that would challenge a well known physical property. I'm all for throwing away the papers and challenging everything we know, but it has to make sense....and the reality of it is, whether gravity is a consequence of space-time fabric being bent or "attraction", the result can hardly be challenged. In either case, it isn't an "illusion" because it's happening...I know what YOU mean, that the traditional concept of attraction IS the illusion.

But, let me ask you this, do you believe space-time fabric is being "bent" when your keys drop to the ground? By your definition, everytime the force of gravity is employed, then it is because we are deceiving ourselves into believing that its not of the attraction, but of space-time fabric being bent....so, is that what's happening?