Dangerous Philosophy: Contemplating Suicide

a reply to: Dark Ghost

The "we are all in this together" argument is illogical: if other people cannot feel the very real internal, continuous and potent pain felt by the person contemplating taking their own life, they have no right to judge that person for taking their life.

And what about the psychoneurosocial conditions underlying the appearance of the condition i.e. a desire to commit suicide?

Pointing out the effects of a suicide ultimately seeks to hack at the core of the delusion: that you feel this way now and it wont "ever go away".

What greater compassion can there be than to assure a person that their experience - belief, or desire for suicide - is an emergent, congintently dependent phenomenon i.e. requiring a fundamental social malaise?

You are vastly and catastrophically misunderstanding the nature of the Human condition i.e. its essential and inherent socialness.

The fact is, we evolved around one another: if you believe and understand what evolution is (which you appear to not undrstand) you will understand the irreducible dynamism of being and - being Human.

Ergo, "we are in this together" is not just as addage of cliche, by a dynamical metaphor for our actual existence as 'sub-components' in a larger, determinative system of feeling relaitons.

Other's make us feel happy - and also depressed and suicidal. No one has ever contemplated suicide without having as its source a fundamental depression with being with Other Humans - i.e. consider the (relative) truth of Sartes statement: hell is other people. Hell can only be other people if other people are the source of our heaven.

Fact is - suicide is an aft of control and power: the person wants to assert their egohood - to which they do by denying any relation to the other, and, as you are doing, even denying any structural or energetic relationship between what one person does vs. another person.

A world in which your morality prevails (a completely impossible thing, btw) is a world where suicide triggers suicide after suicide because the people committing suicide are self-righteously convinced in the idea that "we are all in this alone" i.e. not together.

Such is the consequence of cities, commerce, etc. We have forgotten the conditons that led to our evolution as a being.

a reply to: Wang Tang

I.e. Recorded history. Were talking about a time-period that already post-dates the essential shifts that led to the epistimic-ontological phase shift that characterizes our era.

People's brains are different; we are more aggressive, less patient, less aware, and so, obviously, suicide appears as an attrative outlet.

We can't know - and this is my point. Neuroscience and developmental psychology show how the higher brain areas are complerely "integrated" as a function of our homeostasis as a creature with lower brainstem i.e. homeostasis establishing neuron clusters (such as the reticular activating system). Early life therefore establishes affective and sensorimotor "contingencies" for thinking.

It's sad. It is sad and depressing for me - to be a researcher in this field, and to hear conversation like this, as if we - and reality - weren't capable of offering a world and reality that is precisely that which ancient myths said once existed: an "edenic paradise".

originally posted by: MaxTamesSiva
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness
That's precisely the point Camus made in his book The Rebel, after tackling the idea of suicide in his previous book The Myth of Sisyphus. The Myth of Sisyphus as the Old Testament and the Rebel as the New Testament.

"Man is the only creature who refuses to be what he is."
The Rebel (Introduction)

And as Dostoevsky pointed out in Memoirs From the House of the Dead:
"Man is a creature who can get used to anything, and I believe that is the very best way of defining him."

Hyper religious can be one of the worst mental illnesses of all... one has stopped testing reality against their delusional construct that is usually used as a self soothing coping mechanism filled with cognitive dissonance to self rationalise and find excuses for the behaviors that do not get solved... there's even things built into them for absolution no matter what one has done... does that prompt them to change? No they get to blame some external force instead of take personal responsibility.

Ask any self righteous abuser for an apology and the won't give you one feeling wholly justified or redeemed by their own justification through their belief... this has been the excuse to march into wars for thousands of years killing innocent people because they hold a higher good only in the mind that has deluded them in the first place, as a sickness that is sanctioned to continue on unabated. They do not solve the world's problems as claimed just draw yet another line in the dirt and looking for any excuse to cross it and get animalistic and aggressive and say it is from a higher place than that of an animal.

Of course societies with an agenda find such people as useful idiots when needing to further such agendas and put an inhuman face on a so called enemy... they think differently or look differently and poof thats a good enough excuse never mind they are humans with the same basic needs and desires as anyone else... to be happy never mind the damned philosophy and ideologies claiming that's how to go about it. A shared meal accomplishes much more... and the reasoning is there is something there all can appreciate and it occupies that stupid thing called a mouth prone to spouting concepts that don't help anything other than serving oneself.

Does it grow understanding or just try to debate convence and win someone to one's side? Already human no other side to be on... quit drawing lines and carrying useless labels and giving them to others and poof that dream all children before infected with those communicable diseases of concepts called world peace could happen... until then it is generation after generation bred to slap a gun in their hand at a learned enemy they know little to nothing about... that doesn't cease anything just cause more pain and hurt and a later excuse to go right back at it at some point in the future and it's madness absolutely nothing else and unjustifiable plain sheer madness with not ration behind it no matter what reasoning that gets put forth.

That's the human condition or should I say conditioning... ring a bell of bias and the hoard is ready to destroy instead of lay that crap aside and build. We owe it to the women and children the ones that have to bare this and see them die over and over out of utter senselessness as we try to slap our faces and ideologies on the coming generations instead of respecting the person they already are and encouraging them to grow into. That's where to take pride not in yay I made them just like me instead of who they are or want to be.

Oh well... fortunately time marches on faster than any army of ignorance ever could and with each progressive generation we shed more and more of that ignorance that aggression and stupidity we display oh so much out of one thing: fear.

a reply to: Astrocyte

Trauma as I have studied it has to constantly build new pathways in the brain in order to cope as it is too active to handle all the stress so a pathway closes down that normally should have been open and chemical imbalances develop and the dendrites that are no longer of any use don't get trimmed out they become blocks that pathways hit to reactivate once someone is out of whatever stressful environment and they hit a dead end no synapses to jump any longer... and such things have to route through areas they normally wouldn't have like speech centers or auditory centers and become voices or seeing things not there etc. fortunately cannabis in many studies are said to trim those old dead dendrites out and allow neurogeneration to build new ones and that; that is the actual reason for what appears as brain matter loss when looked at, that prohibitionists ignore the larger picture and instead call it brain damage.

The only reason it has some history of activating psychosis is in that trimming and forming healthy pathways that had to be circumvented in the face of stress and poor coping shutting down or fragmenting cognitive abilities leading to all sorts of psychopathology.

Fortunately the rhetoric and stigma that demonized it is going away unfortunately the industries it threatens in quarterly profits are fighting against it just the same as when it was first attacked, using correlation instead of actual cause and effect... many studies are used out of context to promote such nonsense all across the board and that's when entrenched industry and corruption follows suit where we start creating systems that profit directly off of human misery instead of working to alleviate it and when that happens they become entrenched and the more that starts depending on those systems the more difficult it becomes to uproot them or reform them in how they need to be reformed to actually work as intended.

Fortunately seeing the problem is a way to start looking for rational solutions instead of the irrational that just says cha ching and what do i care that chain of human misery doesn't effect me in any way other than making me rich and if it were to affect me I am rich enough or have enough power and influence to where I won't affect me even then, hell some will even give me a pat on the back going haha way to stick it to the man and they are the god damned man at that point.

Society has seen enough of this and well that's where we are looking for anyone and everyone to change it. I say be the change you want to see, vote every time you open your wallet otherwise you'll keep funding what's broken not knowing who or what lobbies what with a fraction of the money you used to purchase whatever...

Too big to fail my ass... bailed out with tax money then written off again as a loss for a double dip and people wonder why debt is so out of control.

Happy Halloween the masks are off.

a reply to: schuyler
I promise you I did not choose this life. I did not choose my parents. People have tried to tell me this thinking it would be comforting. It isn't, far from it. To think that I choose the situation I was born into is only slightly less horrific than thinking it was karmic debt from a previous life. If I was to learn either one was true, it truly would crush my soul.

Yes, I have considered suicide. I have also survived the suicide of immediate family, so I know what it is like to be on both sides.

I have a clear set of parameters and requirements that must be met for me to choose suicide. If I don't meet those parameters, great! If I do, then it is my choice to make.

I completely support someone with a terminal illness ending life on their terms. I also support the choice of someone with chronic pain, be it physical or mental. I fully believe suicide can be justifiable and that forcing someone to live in a hellish situation with little to no hope for improvement is cruel.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness Your post is mostly fact with a few scientific errors.
Trauma does not affect chemicals in the brain. It does change the way the brain functions. Certain parts of the brain become more active while others less. The problem in cases of PTSD is that all pathways become routed thru the part of the brain that stores the trauma memory. This is why PTSD is treatable but not curable. Yes, the brain has to create new circuits. Trimming old dendrites will not stimulate nerogeneration and is not needed to do so. New experiences that have an emotional component, preferably positive, is what is needed.

a reply to: calstorm

I agree assisted suicide is the humane thing when faced with a system that fails it does become a valid way out because inside someone can feel dead already for decades even their entire lifetimes... and trying to cope or undo all the unhealthy coping from that trauma keeps sabotaging everything just attempting to have normality or understood.

But that's because society is shallow in love... it's quicker to run and see something as a challenge that allows growth and understanding closeness as damage not worth the time because it interferes with my fantasy ideal. Love is acceptance not of the ones causing all the damage but those trying to overcome it and not saying hey hey easy target to abuse and control feigning love then just tossing them aside like garbage because society says hey that's what you are instead of the perpetrators of such things.

I read about a young European lady that opted for assisted suicide because she was in so much mental turmoil and distress that it looked better than "it gets better" because who knows when the hell that would be as cold and unflinching people can be because of all the stigmas and that mentioned previously? I actually cried reading about that... then of course knew exactly why and hell it's why I stand up use the strength and voice I have to say NO it wasn't her nothing was wrong with her what was wrong was what happened to her to where that was the option she felt she had to choose and it isn't but unfortunately it is because unless we change it think about it differently then it won't and it remains a valid option out of compassion... if not then killing the living sh!t out of those that abused you that seems beyond repair should be the slap on the wrist... and in some cases it is, but who wants to gamble as none of it is balanced or fair when it comes to justice especially when morals and not ethics is swinging the hammer and deciding laws with bias? You can't know and since justice is iffy... good luck getting any.

An ex I used to date was gang raped by 5 people... all but two got away no sentence at all and the judge blamed her and her family blamed her like those 5 guys actions were not the dishonorable thing but she was. A young teen said to be a bit tipsy and maybe wearing something revealing AND!!! they made her feel like she was asking for it wanted it and provoked it. Scarred and screwed up for life trying the best she can used abused and thrown away over and over seeking normalcy but couldn't be normal again no matter how much one tried because the abuse became the normal if it wasn't there then something was wrong and concerned that she didn't know when it may be coming even if it never was? Mental flip would switch and go right back into the same vicious cycle dejected and rejected because that's all she knew.

And people wonder why rape culture exists... the system fails everyone including the abusers that need help to stop but since they don't have any real incentive too or get excuses made for them to act like animals without brakes or a conscious then say hey it's ok it's built into human behavior they couldn't help themselves they were compelled by forces outside their control... it's not ok and it is not outside of their control, sympathizing with the wrong party because someone perhaps could empathize being weak under similar circumstances that they make excuses and give it a pass.

That's one of the major problems that rarely gets discussed... rationalizing the irrational as rational if it is animal behavior they can't seem to control then do the same people think animals act out of ration? That Fido sits and reasons biting on his ass for five minutes out? Some may argue that animals do and if so; then they act more human than such people perpetuating and perpetrating such activities that get a pass... so a cake and eat it too situation I guess.

Oh the humanity when humanity can be a very difficult thing to even find; the more one looks beyond the sociopathic facade and just pretend it doesn't exist and it will go away mentality.

a reply to: calstorm

Thank you for your comments. You talk about suicide as if you have developed a certain familiarity with the idea that most people do not have. And yet, despite having contemplated suicide and displaying familiarity with the idea, you are clearly not irrational or insane. Your thoughts are perfectly rational and logical. I'm especially fascinated with the idea of setting parameters that have to be met before choosing suicide.

I just wish we could all have this level of familiarity with suicide before we seriously contemplate it, and before those close to us actually follow through with it. This is why I want to reiterate that it is not a mark of weakness or insanity to seriously contemplate suicide. Any rational human placed in certain situations might consider suicide.

I've heard several people mention those in chronic pain with no hope for improvement. It is perfectly rational to consider suicide in this instance.

There is also the instance of committing a dishonor so great that you cannot bear to live with yourself. Think like Judas in the Bible, or a disgraced samurai, or in this day and age, a convicted pedophile who will be abused in prison, and then viewed as an inferior human if he ever makes it out of prison.

But then there are also the mysterious instances, where someone commits suicide, and his acquaintances say it came out of nowhere. The instances where it seems everything is ok on the surface, but deep down this person is struggling for one reason or another. It is these instances in particular that interest me. Sometimes these instances stem from internal suffering that was unknown to others, and sometimes people have a moment of clarity and see the absurdity of this life, and seriously question if all the effort is worthwhile. These are the people that are most likely to be labeled as insane for contemplating suicide. And these are the people we really need to improve on helping, because any of us, at any time, can be one of these people.

a reply to: calstorm

If brain chemistry such as dopamine, tryptophan, serotonin etc can't fire through the normal pathways and have to try and jump other synapses or flood areas they don't belong then what does one think an imbalance is? Not enough chemicals not enough delay or too much delay in firing them... yep that's exactly what it is thought of as the action even though the action of those drugs is unknown yet the receptors in which they jump or block the reuptake of so they sit in a puddle so the areas that do kinda work are over worked to get some functioning out of them.

Lets just say I've studied this over 20 years I've seen how this stuff functions having once been medicated myself and as a subject you can also learn and observe just what it is that is going on and occurring taking an active role instead of a passive they know what they are doing approach... my mom takes a passive role with medicine if they told her that her healthy eyes needed to be removed she'd believe them if they told her dog farts give you brain cancer she'd believe them that lab coat and piece of paper on the wall shows they know what they are talking about right?

I'm the proactive sort I study everything I take nothing at face value there's always more to the story and I'm that sort of asshole that will find out what that is... hours and hours book after book research after research not conjecture after conjecture because I may get sued if I state an opinion that the medical board are gonna start clearing their throats over... that's another societal issue holding people and progress back the peers and concern you'll be a laughing stock and well I'm just trying to survive and pay my bills not get political with my profession and get all black listed so ima play it safe and protect my own interests.

That goes on all the time... like the threat of incarceration was the largest deterrent against cannabis back in the 60's all the way up to now... not actually any of it's effects or science, but people in certain positions oh yeah one drag and it'll f-ing kill you because that rhetoric means job stability and no other reason and due to their held positions? People believe them.

The issue I come by is plainly stated right here:

It seems to me life is inherently absurd, and any thought to end one’s own life is inherently rational. I imagine that most people would not consider suicide a rational thought. But then again, most people live reactively, continuing to live purely out of habit, and any idea that threatens to break this habit is viewed as false.

Side note: I have contemplated suicide for this very reason, and found my own way of living past it, which I will touch on. Just know that I do not 100% disagree, but there is a flip side!

It seems to me life is inherently absurd, and any thought to end one’s own life is inherently rational

First part: Yes. I believe it is normal to have this thought! If you are even SLIGHTLY intelligent, you have at least given the thought: "Why would I play a game where no matter what, I am literally destined to lose?" If not at the very least just to see if you can rationalize still living!

People come up with a lot of rationals for this question which include, but are not limited to by any means the following, keep in mind, I am purely making this argument based on the suicidal thoughts that stem from "Life itself is pointless."Because honestly that is the most rational reasoning I see fit for suicide, anything else needs to be treated with motivational classes, and a therapist, and is a symptom of severe depression rather than "I came to this conclusion logically, not because my girlfriend broke up with me.":

1. You will not make it to heaven if you kill yourself.
   
2. It will hurt those you love.
   
3. You have responsibilities! Can't leave them!
   
4. You will miss it when you're gone.
   
5. It will hurt too much.
   
6. I am afraid of death, so I choose life despite my hate for it.
   

These are all good reasons for someone with high empathetic values, but are very limiting, and likely provoke the suicidal thoughts more, if they are driven by wanting to take control or wanting to end the pointlessness.

Part two: This is the part where I tell you suicide is #ing stupid, and no way would any RATIONAL being or consciousness want to commit this act. That's right.. IT IS NORMAL to THINK that life is pointless, but it IS NOT RATIONAL to go through with it, at least when you think about it! logically!

The world is beautiful. Anyone who says different is severely depressed, or not thinking deep enough.
I am not saying "Society is beautiful." It's not, especially not here in the US.
I am not saying "Our way of life, or our day to day grind is beautiful."
I am not saying "You have to keep living because people gunna miss you.."
I'm saying EXISTENCE IS BEAUTIFUL!

The individual is beautiful! It's what everyone takes for granted when they attempt to persuade someone else from killing themselves. They say "Oh you have a kid.. he needs you.." TRUE, but what about my happiness? Why are you ignoring the fact that I feel trapped by a meaningless existence!?

EXISTENCE IS BEAUTIFUL. The act of it, the fact that is, rather than isnt! The mathematical impossibilities that occurred in all of space and time, to render your very state of existence? It's fantastic! And PROBLEMATIC if you don't think so.

It is the ultimate curiosity.
Life is the ultimate puzzle.
The ultimate mind game.
It has limitless possibilities, everyday is different, YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT.
There is so much to learn, so much for you to do, for me to do, and see.

And what do you get with death?

As far as we can tell, you get nothing. Literally. Think what it was like before you were born. You CANT EVEN ENJOY SILENCE IF YOURE DEAD. You can't enjoy anything. That's why life is a gift, and suicide is stupid.

It is always best to be proactive with your health. I to know people like your mom, and it mystifies me. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have most likely studied this more than I have. I do know that current research in regards to trauma and PTSD chemical imbalance has been ruled out. To be honest, I don't have the scientific knowledge to fully understand or explain this as I am still in the learning and research phase. However, I do trust the source compared to sources motivated by prescription drug revenue.

originally posted by: nightbringr

originally posted by: violet
I sincerely doubt a person that close to taking their life is thinking about what comes after it. It's an " ending" about ending pain, ending the suffering. Everything else they tried to do about it failed to take away the feelings of wanting it all to end. It's a last straw. It's not about beginning a new journey. There's no desire to begin anything.

I guarantee many a Catholic has wanted to do the deed, but in Catholicism, the punishment for suicide is hell.

You don't think that would change people's minds, or would weigh very heavily indeed on them? I can't think of any pain beyond constant, agonizing torture that would make me want to risk hell.

Oh, absolutely. You're right. A Catholic would be scared of ending up in hell.

Maybe though, some people are under such constant torture and in that monent of sheer desperation just don't care about the risk or care what comes after and really just hope they will cease to exist, no more pain. I'm talking about a spontaneous unplanned suicide. I think most suicides are done on impulse. They are alone and the decision to end it comes then. They just give up. I think they just think I'll die and I'm done. Most likely sobbing terribly and can't think straight.

That's why these crisis hotlines you can call and talk about your problems to somebody, albeit a stranger, are so important. If you aren't alone you can't do it. Impulsive thinking rarely has any proper thought going on.

originally posted by: Astrocyte
And what about the psychoneurosocial conditions underlying the appearance of the condition i.e. a desire to commit suicide?

Pointing out the effects of a suicide ultimately seeks to hack at the core of the delusion: that you feel this way now and it wont "ever go away".

What greater compassion can there be than to assure a person that their experience - belief, or desire for suicide - is an emergent, congintently dependent phenomenon i.e. requiring a fundamental social malaise?

You are vastly and catastrophically misunderstanding the nature of the Human condition i.e. its essential and inherent socialness.

The fact is, we evolved around one another: if you believe and understand what evolution is (which you appear to not undrstand) you will understand the irreducible dynamism of being and - being Human.

You have made some strong, unwarranted assumptions about me based on what appears to be one reply of mine. Just because people do not share your views does not mean they are wrong or lacking in their understanding of human psychology and sociology.

Ergo, "we are in this together" is not just as addage of cliche, by a dynamical metaphor for our actual existence as 'sub-components' in a larger, determinative system of feeling relaitons.

Other's make us feel happy - and also depressed and suicidal. No one has ever contemplated suicide without having as its source a fundamental depression with being with Other Humans - i.e. consider the (relative) truth of Sartes statement: hell is other people. Hell can only be other people if other people are the source of our heaven.

That is blatantly false. There are many cases of people feeling depressed/suicidal due to environmental factors not involving other people. Bleak financial outlooks, gambling debts out of control, alcohol dependence, drug addiction, chronic physical/mental anguish, PTSD etc.

Fact is - suicide is an aft of control and power: the person wants to assert their egohood - to which they do by denying any relation to the other, and, as you are doing, even denying any structural or energetic relationship between what one person does vs. another person.

Utter nonsense. You really think severely depressed people "want to assert their egohood" when they want their lives to end? In most cases it's about reaching a threshold of pain/misery they can no longer tolerate.

A world in which your morality prevails (a completely impossible thing, btw) is a world where suicide triggers suicide after suicide because the people committing suicide are self-righteously convinced in the idea that "we are all in this alone" i.e. not together.

My morality? talk about attacking the messenger...

It seems you are in great fear of truth, and wish to substitute it with your own pseudo-utopian outlook on human nature and its social aspects.

i am not religious and believe suicide is a disservice to yourself.

life is the ultimate playground the ultimate creation of your mind.

it is such a unique experience. you can be come a billionaire living in a lavish mansion or a strung out drug addict living underneath the freeway.

the choice really is yours. why sell yourself short with suicide? death is already guaranteed eventually.

do what you can with the time you have.

This:

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
I think I will choose Yeshua this time:

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

Sometimes the reason for wanting to leave this place, is the need to be in a place where souls are more logical and aware, since humanity as a whole do not measure up and have not evolved enough.

When a soul pushes suffering and need out it creates a telepathic distress call. I get that a large majority of humans do not have a body calibrated to hear this calls including me. But there are souls that have calibrated their bodies and mind and have this ability that can both be a curse and a blessing.

If humanity evolved to a higher level of awareness there would be more people handling distress calls on this level, so every suicide is humanity collectively failing to evolve humanity to a social and technological level that makes the soul want to stick around on this level and not suffer.

And this:

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
It is known deep down that life would be much lighter/ easier if there was an absence of the separate self. It is the separate (false) self that must die.

Those two posts together, resonate the most true from this viewpoint.
Perhaps the thought of wanting to die, is not the call for the end of life, but the soul screaming at you to kill your ego.
Is it possible to communicate in other ways, than the standard accepted ways?
Will ego death end the suffering? Does an enlightened soul feel any pain?
Are those most deepest and darkest moments, possibly the most true, honest, and sane moments?
Feels that way.

a reply to: Nothin

Brilliant! That makes perfect sense: "the soul screaming at you to kill your ego."

a reply to: Wang Tang

Hi, congratulations on being such a high level player of the game. I've been looking for seers for the past couple of weeks and one seer saw your image last month as an important part of October... I think you started this thread in October, so that could mean its a big deal. The game did change in October so that was the beginning month.

Any ways, one thing about the game is that you can stop playing at any time. If you couldn't, it wouldn't be a game. It would be a show. So, I consider ending a game early to be a valid choice. If the game creator gives you a choice to end, I think its a valid option.

Ending the game early is rejection of a mission or giving up on a mission. However, they are the one who started the game and they will simply try again t and probably be bothered they ended their life. Its quitting, and they are only going to regret it later on. But none the less they are stuck and when you are stuck starting over is a perfectly valid option even though you may end up just as stuck next time in the next life.

The creator is in fact bothered by players who end their own life, but it needs to be a part of the game.