Scapegoat Irony

a reply to: ChesterJohn

That's because your version of the preserved word is the KJV and they edited Azazel out.

Jews acknowledge the tradition and the NRSV has accurately translated the passage at the day of Atonement as a sacrifice for Yahweh and for Azazel.

I doubt your English language Bible is more authoritative than the most ancient Hebrew texts that have Azazel in them.

I also doubt that the Jews made up Azazel just to contradict the KJV. I know they didn't.

Go to the online Jewish Encyclopedia and type in Azazel and see what it says about the day of atonement and who the scapegoat is for!!!

Poor Chester, so inhibited by your sub par Bible translation.

originally posted by: geezlouise

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Frankly your Original Post is a bit disjointed and not easy to follow.

He's right, you know.

Who is Azazel really?

Are you saying Azazel fugged some shiz up, then got locked away for being a bad boy, and Lucifer got the bad rep?

Am I to blame for your lack of knowledge?

I also never mentioned Lucifer because there is no Lucifer, in scripture or otherwise.

Am I not supposed to realize that Masonicus has his Mason buddies come to his aid an star him up like he said something worthy?

Can't fight your own battles Masonicus?

You gotta call the brethren?

originally posted by: peppycat

originally posted by: Malocchio


There was a powerful famous in ancient Israel known as Azazel. The only being for which Yahweh allows and even instructs the Israelites to sacrifice to.

English Bibles tend to render Azazel ''scapegoat" but the goat that was led out to the desert and pushed off the cliff at the day of atonement was the scapegoat, Azazel is the recipient of the scapegoat sacrifice and the reasons why are a mystery. He is said to be imprisoned in Dudael in chains upside down. The possible son of Lilith and either Samael or Semyaza.

Now the scapegoat is Satan because everything evil is his fault after 2000 years of demonic panic. He is associated with the goat ironically because of the Greek god Pan and not Azazel who has associations with goats.

my attempt at figuring out the goat symbol in Judaism...

In many cultures, horned animals are honored in the fall because the autumn is hunting season. The spirits of the animals, sometimes embodied in horned deities, were celebrated and placated. I don't know if this was true of ancient Israel, but that is one possibility for the origin of our fascination with horns. Another possibility is that horned animals represent the moon. All of the holidays at this season fall on a different phase of the moon. At this time when the nights become longer than the days, horned animals might have symbolized the transition to the dark half of the year.

It appears our ancestors had a long tradition of honoring goat-like spirit-animals, as the book of Leviticus tells us the Israelite sacrificial system was meant to replace the practice of offering meat to the se'irim or goat-beings. In II Chronicles 11:14 we hear about the Northern Kingdom of Israel (during the days when there were two Israelite kingdoms) worshipping se'irim. The depiction of the Adversary as a goat-like man may stem from the duel Israelite religion fought with the goat-beings.

How does Judaism transform the ancient symbolism of the goat or the ram? On both Rosh haShanah and Yom Kippur, the goat/ram is sacrificed as a substitute for us (of course, now we only use a text about an animal, not an actual animal, as a sacrifice). Through these stories, we symbolically offer our life-force to the Divine to be used for healing in the universe. This is part of the teshuvah or repentance process. The shofar, which is blown on Rosh Hashanah to represent Divine sovereignty, remembrance, and revelation, teaches us that our offerings need not be violent ones. We can dedicate ourselves to the forces of life through remembering our deeds and acting justly in the world. The ram and goat become, not only symbols of hunting, but symbols of righteousness. The nights of the holidays, with their bright moons, beckon us to search in our own inner wildernesses for our worthy inclinations, our path lit by the sky-torch of the Shekhinah. The hunt we engage in this autumn is a hunt for the knowledge of our true selves.

Good hunting to all of us.

source
steeped in pagan roots as i see it... very interesting stuff here..!
more on the "goat demons" or se irim,

The demons mentioned in the Bible are of two classes, the "se'irim" and the "shedim." The se'irim ("hairy beings"), to which the Israelites sacrificed in the open fields (Lev. xvii. 7; A. V. "devils"; R. V., incorrectly, "he-goats"), are satyr-like demons, described as dancing in the wilderness (Isa. xiii. 21, xxxiv. 14; compare Maimonides, "Moreh," iii. 46; Vergil's "Eclogues," v. 73, "saltantes satyri"), and are identical with the jinn of the Arabian woods and deserts (see Wellhausen, l.c., and Smith, l.c.). To the same class belongs Azazel, the goat-like demon of the wilderness (Lev. xvi. 10 et seq.), probably the chief of the se'irim, and Lilith (Isa. xxxiv. 14). Possibly "the roes and hinds of the field," by which Shulamit conjures the daughters of Jerusalem to bring her back to her lover (Cant. ii. 7, iii. 5), are faunlike spirits similar to the se'irim, though of a harmless nature. The (Job v. 23. A. V. "stones of the field"), with which the righteous are said to be in league—obviously identical with, if not a corruption of, the (Mishnah Kil. viii. 5), explained in Yer. Kil. 31c as "a fabulous mountain-man drawing nourishment from the ground" (see Jastrow, "Dict.," and Levy, "Neuhebr. Wörterb." s.v. )—seem to be field-demons of the same nature. The wilderness as the home of demons was regarded as the place whence such diseases as leprosy issued, and in cases of leprosy one of the birds set apart to be offered as an expiatory sacrifice was released that it might carry the disease back to the desert (Lev. xiv. 7, 52; compare a similar rite in Sayce, "Hibbert Lectures," 1887, p. 461, and "Zeit. für Assyr." 1902, p. 149).

source
Law of atonement...in OT purpose of the goat sacrifice?

“He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting. 8“Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9“Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering. 10“But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.
11“Then Aaron shall offer the bull of the sin offering which is for himself and make atonement for himself and for his household, and he shall slaughter the bull of the sin offering which is for himself. 12“He shall take a firepan full of coals of fire from upon the altar before the LORD and two handfuls of finely ground sweet incense, and bring it inside the veil. 13“He shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the ark of the testimony, otherwise he will die. 14“Moreover, he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; also in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

15“Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. 16“He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.

Source
so what i am gathering is, the sins or impurities of the people are placed upon the sacrifice and that satan is the choices we make...not a solid being to place blame...the sacrifice offering takes away our guilt and purifies us...so far as i have gathered...
thank you for this OP as it has given me much to contemplate...hope you don't mind my sharing what you inspired me to look up...!

I appreciate it actually.

I am being Mason hated right now because I called out Augustus and his Mason buddies had to come and make him look less foolish.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: geezlouise

the name Azazel cannot be found any where in the preserved word of God, that should tell you something.

This is nothing more thant he Pseudo-interpretations of some cult leader because none of it is BIBLICAL.

Leviticus 16: 8, 10, 26 all mention Azazel.
NRSV (a more than reputable translation).

8 And Aaron shall cast lots on the two goats, one for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel.

10 But the goat on which the lot fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord...

26 The one who sets the goat free for Azazel shall wash...

What was that about ''preserved"?

Looks like your Bible is out of date and corrupted as Azazel has been well known in Judaism since Moses and features prominently in Enochian ante deluvian tradition. It is not something my Catholic Bible made up or the Jews, retroactively to make the KJV look inaccurate.

It's the true tradition of the day of Atonement and no matter how you edit Azazel out you can't erase tradition that is preserved in the oldest texts and by Jews who may not worship Azazel but were commanded to offer him sacrifice.

You enjoy knowing less and believing that there is no truth beyond your version, huh?

So the KJV edited out Azazel, the Jews know all about and so do the Catholics and all Christian scholars.

Which you are obviously not, never mind a Tanakh scholar.

But of course since you are not aware of ancient Hebrew tradition and don't give a damn about the truth Azazel is the work of a "cult leader."

That "cult leader '' is Yahweh, the one who ordered the sacrifice.

You are just awesome for showing how the modern Christian has no clue about ancient Jewish customs and the ludicrously false belief that the KJV is faithful to the most ancient Hebrew traditions.

Azazel has much said about him in 1 Enoch and the Talmud and neither were produced by cults. 1 Enoch was Christian scripture for a time and is quoted by Jude.

It's also part of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity's Canon of Scripture.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Malocchio I knew it was either you or Maxi, what ever his name is, that started this thread.

why don't you show some scriptures no scapegoat was ever shoved off a cliff. He was left to wander in the wilderness.

Yoma in the Talmud. And why do you care who made the thread. What, you don't approve? Too bad.

The only place in scripture about the scapegoat is found in Levi Chapter 16, it is for Israel when they get into their land. so here they are.

Le 16:1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered before the LORD, and died;
2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.
4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.
5 ¶ And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.
7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.
11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:
12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:
13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.
15 ¶ Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 ¶ And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
25 And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
26 And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Sorry not one thing for a Gentile today. I will stick with the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world.

I have already provided the scripture that speaks of Azazel (3 times), now I quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

Azazel:

The name of a supernatural being mentioned in connection with the ritual of the Day of Atonement.

The goat was pushed off a cliff according to the Talmud.

Because I like you I will give you the chance to educate yourself that Azazel is a part of Jewish tradition and not anything to do with a cult.

Azazel Jewish Encyclopedia

I ask you, is Judaism a cult to you?

Because it's the source of the tradition.

Is Christianity a cult?

Because Origen wrote about Azazel although in typical uneducated Christian fashion identified him with Satan as anything demonic must be Satan to the, again, uneducated (in Hebrew tradition) Christian of then and now.

You have a lot to learn Chester, as do we all. But you aren't even trying.

You just ridicule anything you don't understand. If you don't know about it then it isn't true seems to be your way.

Sorry. I know that it's not good to be like that. I hope you grow and mature in spirituality, honestly.

a reply to: Malocchio

I would call the Zionists who follow the Talmud a cult. But the spiritual sons of Abraham understand that not everything in the Talmud is from God.

The OP is interesting. But I'm not sure what difference it makes in interpretation. Regardless of who the sacrifice is made too the purpose of atonement remains the same.

It's never about the ritual, it's always about the purification of one's mind.

a reply to: Malocchio

I posted those exact scriptures and unless you are transliterating and not translating it is not in the preserved word of God.

No it is not edited out it is translated to Goat, your so called word if transliterated not translated. That means it has English letters both consonants and added vowels.

The word is goat with a small g in English.

If you are going to use transliterations then transliterate the whole passage not just one word then see how well you could understand it.

You have to go to outside sources and then force it upon scripture to even make it biblical and it is still not.

a reply to: Malocchio

my Bible is the AV The misnomer of calling it the KJV did not even exist until the mid 20th (1900's)Century. Because they wanted it to look like one of all the other Bibles of men's creations instead of the preserved word of God.

You guys do all the other research to prove your point but not about that. Try getting the full truth about things before you post. At least give the people everything and let them decide a.ll you do is force your opinions with skewed facts just like the MSM.

originally posted by: Malocchio

Can't fight your own battles Masonicus?

Of course I can, instead of worrying about who stars whom maybe you can answer my question instead of avoiding it, then there may actually be a 'battle', until then you are being disingenuous.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Malocchio

Can't fight your own battles Masonicus?

Of course I can, instead of worrying about who stars whom maybe you can answer my question instead of avoiding it, then there may actually be a 'battle', until then you are being disingenuous.

I guess it's true when they say:

" If you want to get a troll out of hiding, you must say his name."

Look. I started this thread with the intention of conversing with mature adults the irony of Satan being such a scapegoat for the worlds problems and Azazel being a spirit offered a scapegoat sacrifice for the sins of Israel.

And the irony of Satan's depiction as a goat being based off not Azazel but Pan.

As well as the English translations hiding the angel Azazel by calling him the scapegoat as well as Rabbinical glossing over the ancient tradition trying to make Azazel a symbol more than his actual role as teacher of weapons making and other corruptions in Enochian scripture.

If you can act like a mature man and stop thinking that you need to prove your manhood on the Internet I will act as though you never ran your mouth like a clown.

Are you a Shriner?

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I honestly don't care about the KJV or your insistence every minute that it's the only preserved word of God.

It's so ridiculous to think that when Azazel alone proved its innaccuracy to true tradition.

You denied he was in scripture and I proved he is mentioned 3 times, deal with it.

Azazel is not a modern invention of the NRSV it's based on the most accurate meaning of the original texts and confirmed by Jewish tradition AS I PROVED.

You merely changed the subject to your Bible that for some reason you think is the only correct Bible in the world.

King James only Christians are peculiar but you are especially and obsessed with telling everyone about your mistaken belief.

We get it, you only believe in the KJV of the Bible. I just don't care because it's ridiculous to even entertain the thought that King James (who practiced bestiality) was responsible for the best Bible.

There are better translated Bibles like the NRSV or the Oxford annotated Bible that are true to the oldest texts.

The NRSV even uses the Dead Sea Scrolls whenever possible because obviously the older the better. Strange thing is they usually agrer with the Septuagint over the Masoretic which is what the KJV is translated from and why it's inferior.

Authorized Version? That is a joke, honestly.

a reply to: Malocchio

Satan is not a scapegoat he is the father of lies and a murder from the beginning. He is that old serpent the Devil.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

There I quoted the words of Jesus and Revelation for you.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Satan is the ultimate scapegoat.

a reply to: Malocchio

I'll have you know that I ATS stalk AugustusMasonicus, of my own accord. And I was just agreeing with what he said.

If you want to share what you know, isn't it your job to communicate the information efficiently and effectively... so that others can know? You're not to blame for my lack of knowledge, but I feel like you've been really vague... testy, defensive, and sensitive. I think it's really all about the delivery... but you're right. What do I know?

a reply to: Malocchio

what is more amazing is that you think an transliteration is better than a translation, and the opinion of men to be greater than the word of God.

Oh BTW I am not a KJV only that is a horse of a different color than I. Though we may have some agreement on some issues many still don't believe that the AV is the Preserved word of God in English for today. Many deny its inerrancy and it's wholeness. Much Like you

a reply to: Malocchio

opinion not fact

a reply to: geezlouise

Thank you Geez, I couldn't have said it better he is testy, defensive and sensitive in receiving but very insensitive when giving. And vague an opinionated without any facts.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Yes.

He's acting like a cornered animal, so he keeps snapping at the hand that tries to interact with him. When really, we're not cornering him at all, we're just asking for more information... and we haven't been aggressive about it at all. Maybe he's used to people disregarding his ideas so he's quick to be on the defensive- but I think if people are often unreceptive... that should be some kind of sign that your delivery methods aren't working.

TBH, now that I think about it, when you're trying to share what you know and your audience isn't receptive of it, I think maybe then you ARE to blame for their lack of knowledge. Idk though.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Malocchio

opinion not fact

One of your most common retorts.

It's actually a fact that the angel of Job Ha Satan is a scapegoat for all things evil in Christianity. Every other religion is of Satan according to Christian tradition.

Every sin is because of Satan as a matter of theology. To say he is not a scapegoat is naivety at its finest.

Factually speaking and by definition Satan is a scapegoat because he is blamed for all sin.

Man sins, not Satan.

Satan is obedient in scripture. Your sacrificial atonement that is your salvation was accomplished for your benefit and Satan assisted by possessing Judas to betray Jesus, apparently Judas was not going to go through with it.

If not for Satan you would have no sacrificial atonement for sin.

Point being Christianity misrepresented Satan. The evil one was originally known as Belial or Mastema and Satan was a host of Heaven.

a reply to: Malocchio

I have since being saved never used Satan as a scapegoat but what does that have to do with Leviticus? Absolutely nothing.

A retort that is true still remains true.

And it is Roman Catholicism that has those doctrine not MS conservative Christianity.