wicca is not deriven from freemasonry

wicca is one of the olddest religions!!! I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD. Wicca was started in around 3000 or 4000 bc!

As a Freemason and a historian, you are correct. Wicca most certainly did not derive from Freemasonry, and there is nothing in Freemasonry which I am aware of, which represents Wiccan principles or beliefs as such. As a Christain also, I do see that many religious organizations and those believing in a deity have many similar principles in many cases.

Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD.

And I don't know where you may have seen it suggested by any Freemason that Wiccan religion was derived in any way from latter day Freemasonry? Link please.

Originally posted by kwbanner
As a Freemason and a historian, you are correct. Wicca most certainly did not derive from Freemasonry, and there is nothing in Freemasonry which I am aware of, which represents Wiccan principles or beliefs as such. As a Christain also, I do see that many religious organizations and those believing in a deity have many similar principles in many cases.

Actually, Wicca did indeed evolve indirectly from Freemasonry. Contrary to the original poster's assertions, Wicca is actually one of the youngest religions, having been formed by a British author named Gerald Gardner in the early 20th century.

In the late 1800's, a group of members of the Masonic Rosicrucian Society of England founded an occult organization in London called the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. The Golden Dawn was divided into the same degrees as the Masonic Rosicrucians, but the G.D. degrees had much more emphasis on ceremonial magic.

In 1898, a young journalism student named Aleister Crowley was initiated into the Golden Dawn, becoming an Adeptus Minor in late 1899. In 1900, the Order disintegrated due to internal schism, with several of the members, including Crowley, forming there own organizations, based on the Golden Dawn.

Gerald Gardner joined both of Crowley's occult organizations, the A.A. and O.T.O. While organizing the hierarchy of Wicca, he drew heavily from these Orders, which in turn drew heavily from Masonry. He even divided Wicca up into three degrees, as in Craft Masonry.

Although many of the tenets of Wicca are drawn from ancient sources, its outward form is derived from Masonry. Some Wiccan Rites even invest their Candidates with the Apron.

The Wiccan author Silver Ravenwolf writes:

"Wicca, as you practice the religion today, is a new religion, barely fifty years old. The techniques you use at present are not entirely what your elders practiced even thirty years ago. Of course, threads of 'what was' weave through the tapestry of 'what is now.' ...in no way can we replicate to perfection the precise circumstances of environment, society, culture, religion and magick a hundred years ago, or a thousand. Why would we want to ? The idea is to go forward with the knowledge of the past, tempered by the tools of our own age."

www.religioustolerance.org...

A brief history of Wicca, as well as a mention of its indirect link to Masonry, can be read here:

biblia.com...

[edit on 23-1-2005 by Masonic Light]

Wicca , or the Wicca that we all know, is a somewhat recent affair, originating in predominantly Protestant countries.

Incidently it is precisly in those Protestant countries that Masonry came to have such an influence.

Wicca people often speak of Celt. Celt is also a Protestant Cultural Agenda.

It is well documented by historians that Celt was a term coined to give unity to what is plural.

In ancient Greek , Keltoi, meant "hidden" or "hidden people"
it could have a meaning much like "barbarian",

For example, the Japanese sometimes refer of foreigners as "Gaijin"
now... a not very intelectually able individual in 2300 AD, could come up with a theory that All of Western Europe and US, Canada, etc, were not several countries/cultures, but the Big Gaijin Culture.

The mistake would be of the same degree.

To give you guys an idea, there are some pseudohistorians, who claim that the "Celt" culture spread from Ireland all the way (encompassing everything in the middle) to Turkey.
They abuse the fact, of course that there is not much known of ancient cultures throughout the land.

Wicca often boast of how advanced Celt culture was, emancipated and so fourth, and how they made beautiful works of art, in gold.

Well, lets be rigorous here, Celt culture is late, 800 BC or later.

Do a search on Minoan Art (Knossos) (which dates from 2000 BC), and compare the technique.

There are many incorrect uses of words these days.

Another incorrect usage is the frequent use of the term Christian, in opposition to using the specific and more correct Protestant OR Catholic OR Orthodox.

But some people , due to their twisted mental pattern (culturally derived), think it is in their interest to give the illusion of group where there is none.

Groupings, false comparisons.


Wicca similarity to FreeMasonry in my opinion comes from the fact that both of them claim a link to something (believed to have existed) very old.

It would be the same as me and a bunch of individuals join up and claim we are the heirs to the cult of Bastet (and it would be a good choice too)
and then go on a campaign to prove to everyone that its the real thing.
Publishing all sorts of "scholarly" books to try and induce an institutional feel to it all.

But it would be fake.

Because much like FreeMasons can never hope to understand the mind of Knight Templar (or any God fearing (fear had real meaning then) sword wielding individual of those times), and 21st century "Wicca" can also never hope to understand what their Irish and Northern Paganistic friends actually thought.

Compare the mentality of an individual from 2000 AD, to an individual in 1900 AD (choose any country). And note the difference.

Now transpose that to a 1000 year difference, Cultural beliefs, Reality , everything, the difference is just abysmal, and all certainty of fact or belief is mere speculation.

But Historians and book writers need to support themselvs... so !

I have to concur with ML's post.

I haven't had time to check out the links he posted, but I can recommend a good book on the subject (if you can find it...it's out of print and getting harder to find) It's called "Crafting the Art of Magic" by Aidan A. Kelly.

I think that it is important to note the difference in Witchcraft and Wicca. Gardinarian Wicca did much to popularize Wicca but there were other forms that started at other times.
Witchcraft, on the other hand, existed long before the 19th century or Gerald Gardener. It looks as though maybe the thread originator was talking about Paganism in general or Witchcraft, and not the more modern day Wicca.
I have seen the two confused often.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7
I dont know were these mason are getting that wicca was deriven from them in the 1800s AD.

And I don't know where you may have seen it suggested by any Freemason that Wiccan religion was derived in any way from latter day Freemasonry? Link please.

ask masoniclight that is what he says

Yes, the man's arguments seem very plausible when you read them.

Can you provide the historical origins of the Wiccan religion more accurately, back to 3000 or 4000 BC?

Freemasonry would also cast back that far metaphorically, coincidentally enough, to the construction of King Solomon's Temple.

I would like to read your own detailed historical analysis as an alternate to Masonic Light's, it's great that you have given yourself this opportunity.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Yes, the man's arguments seem very plausible when you read them.

Can you provide the historical origins of the Wiccan religion more accurately, back to 3000 or 4000 BC?

Freemasonry would also cast back that far metaphorically, coincidentally enough, to the construction of King Solomon's Temple.

I would like to read your own detailed historical analysis as an alternate to Masonic Light's, it's great that you have given yourself this opportunity.

sorry to say i can only trace back freemasonry to about 2800bc but i can trace back wicca to the oldest document in existence. which is right now considered a sensetive document by the USAF.

Originally posted by Shadow Ghost 7

sorry to say i can only trace back freemasonry to about 2800bc but i can trace back wicca to the oldest document in existence. which is right now considered a sensetive document by the USAF.

If you were to cite your sources and tabulate them in a way the Masonic posters did, your account would increase in plausibility.

What were the events at 2800BC?

What is sensitive about an ancient historical document and how did it come into the hands of the USAF?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I think that it is important to note the difference in Witchcraft and Wicca. Gardinarian Wicca did much to popularize Wicca but there were other forms that started at other times.
Witchcraft, on the other hand, existed long before the 19th century or Gerald Gardener. It looks as though maybe the thread originator was talking about Paganism in general or Witchcraft, and not the more modern day Wicca.
I have seen the two confused often.

Indeed, and I concur. All primitive societies have made use of "witchcraft", and this title is also used often by Wiccans to their own religious work.

Primitive witchcraft probably originated with the so-called "witchdoctors", i.e., shamans or medicine men, who knew the medicinal properties of herbs, roots, and other natural vegetation; at the time, the art of medicine was also considered spiritual.

Witchcraft came into disrepute quickly, however. For every healing shaman, there was also a black magician, who likewise knew the drug properties of plants, and was more than willing to concoct a poison for your enemy for $$$. Thus, the archetype of the old crone boiling eye of newt and nightshade in a cauldron. Several anthropologists have also demonstrated that many of the classical ingredients in witchcraft potions were hallucinogens, viz., small doses of nightshade or jimsonweed, psylocibic mushrooms, and the like. The legends of witches flying on brooms may have evolved from the ingestion of hallucinogens.

Shadow Ghost wrote:

sorry to say i can only trace back freemasonry to about 2800bc but i can trace back wicca to the oldest document in existence.

Freemasonry can only be traced to the 14th century A.D., via the Regius Manuscript, the fraternity's oldest document.

But as to your claim that "the oldest document in existence" has anything to Wicca, I have no choice but to declare the statement spurious. The oldest known writings are dated circa 9000 B.C., and are written in Sumerian cuneiform. The Code of Hammurabi was written a few thousand years later in ideograph, and all these writings were still being carved in stone.

Actual documents came into existence with the discovery of papyrus. Among the oldest documents in existence are the Rig Veda, written in an early Aryan form of Sanskrit, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, written in hieroglyphics.

Needless to say, none of these documents mention Wicca in any form.

Here is a FAQ on Wicca, which says "Traditional Wicca was founded by Gerald Gardner, a British civil servant, who wrote a series of books on the religion in the 1940's."

www.religioustolerance.org...

I have met and spoke with many Wiccans (a couple of them well-known Wiccan authors), yet I've never had any of them claim to me that Wicca is older than 60 or 70 years.

I have spoken to an Elder High Preistess of the Wicce Craft and I must retract my earlier statement. The words "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" are not necessary talking about two different things. The differences in the words have more to do with language than ideology.

Wicca is an incredibly old religion, not started by Gerald Gardner (although he did much to advance it).

I have followed your link ML and I must quote a small piece of it here. This information can be found about a quarter of the way down the page under the heading of "Is Wicca a form of Satanism?"

Wicca and Satanism are not at all similar religions. However, the Christian church linked them in the past -- particularly during the Witch burning times of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance.
From Religious Tolerance.org

Therefore, Religious Tolerance.org acknowledges that Witchcraft was alive and well in the late Middle Ages.

Of course there are references to a witch in the Bible.

My source told me that the Wicce Craft dates back to at least Mesopotamia and I have a plethora of websites that seem to agree.

www.mythome.org...

www.moonwhisper.com...

www.natural-magic.co.uk...

There are too many to list really.

This puts a different wheel on our wagon.


Edit: Spelling

[edit on 1/23/05 by wellwhatnow]

I think that what we have here is a difference over the definition of the word "W/wicca".
If we're talking about Wicca, I would agree with ML. It didn't begin as an organised religion until recently.
But if we're talking about wicca, then I would agree with wellwhatnow. The religion is inspired by pre-christian beliefs that date back thousands of years.

It all depends on wether you are discussing the "official" religion or the belief system from which it was derived. It's rather like arguing about the origins of Freemasonry. Some will say that Freemasonry began with the founding of the English Grand Lodge, whilst others say that it is much older. Both are probably correct - Freemasonry became Freemasonry as we know it in the 18th century, but it was also founded on freemasonry that had been around for hundreds of years prior.

Originally posted by Leveller
I think that what we have here is a difference over the definition of the word "W/wicca".
If we're talking about Wicca, I would agree with ML. It didn't begin as an organised religion until recently.
But if we're talking about wicca, then I would agree with wellwhatnow. The religion is inspired by pre-christian beliefs that date back thousands of years.

key word "inspired" but when you look at any of the pre chrsitain writeings there are priests and priesteses of many faiths recorded but none ever claimed a wiccan faith/religeon or school of mysticism.

but hey if I am wrong post some links to any pre christain text that does because I would be interested in seeing it

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I have spoken to an Elder High Preistess of the Wicce Craft and I must retract my earlier statement. The words "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" are not necessary talking about two different things. The differences in the words have more to do with language than ideology.

Wicca is an incredibly old religion, not started by Gerald Gardner (although he did much to advance it).

I have followed your link ML and I must quote a small piece of it here. This information can be found about a quarter of the way down the page under the heading of "Is Wicca a form of Satanism?"

Wicca and Satanism are not at all similar religions. However, the Christian church linked them in the past -- particularly during the Witch burning times of the late Middle Ages and Renaissance.
From Religious Tolerance.org

Therefore, Religious Tolerance.org acknowledges that Witchcraft was alive and well in the late Middle Ages.

Of course there are references to a witch in the Bible.

My source told me that the Wicce Craft dates back to at least Mesopotamia and I have a plethora of websites that seem to agree.

www.mythome.org...

www.moonwhisper.com...

www.natural-magic.co.uk...

There are too many to list really.

This puts a different wheel on our wagon.


Edit: Spelling

[edit on 1/23/05 by wellwhatnow]

see someone smart enough to do some real research.

Originally posted by noctu
key word "inspired" but when you look at any of the pre chrsitain writeings there are priests and priesteses of many faiths recorded but none ever claimed a wiccan faith/religeon or school of mysticism.

I agree. Inspired is the keyword. But when does inspiration stop being a basis or a foundation?
As I've already stated, I agree that the organised religion of Wicca is a recent creation. But much of it's belief system can be found in ancient history. Therefore it's an argument over the actual definition.
Ancient Hebrews weren't Jews. But when we look at their literature we see their belief system formed the foundation for the modern Jewish religion.

ML has already posted this link: www.religioustolerance.org...

As you can see, it confirms that the organised Wiccan religion is new, but it also theorises that there was an underlying pre-dating creed already in existence.

The subject is an interesting one because there does seem to be much confusion about it's origins. Although, Gardner is the acknowledged creator of the modern movement, it is also claimed (by Gardner himself amongst others) that he was a member of an already established group when he wrote the founding literature for which he was noted. This would seem to indicate that there was already some form of wicca in existence before he gave the modern movement it's present definition.

www.newwiccanchurch.net...

www.bcholmes.org...

thedcw.org...

paganwiccan.about.com...

How much truth there is in the claim that Gardner was a member of an already existing coven, is entirely open to speculation. It can be neither proven or discarded. Some will claim that he was. Some that he wasn't.

religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu...

What is certain, is that if pre-Gardner wiccanism did exist, it would have had to have been a highly secretive movement. The persecution of people for the practicing of witchcraft would have made it impossible for a religion or movement to expose itself.

By the way. My reference to "pre-christian" origins came from here:

dictionary.reference.com...

As for providing ancient texts? The difficulty here, is that it is generally thought that wicca draws from many religious sources - there is no one defining creed and therefore no one defining literative source.

www.sacred-texts.com...

As you can see, there is even some speculation as to wether the old Druidic religion precursors wiccanism. Incidentally, you can also find Gardner's book at the above link (it's a great site for all sorts of texts).



[edit on 24-1-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I have spoken to an Elder High Preistess of the Wicce Craft and I must retract my earlier statement. The words "Wicca" and "Witchcraft" are not necessary talking about two different things. The differences in the words have more to do with language than ideology.

Wiccans often call their religion "witchcraft"; but Wiccan "witchcraft" is not always the same thing as what most people (non-Wiccans) think of when they hear the word "witchcraft".

Wicca is an incredibly old religion, not started by Gerald Gardner (although he did much to advance it).

I'll be the first to admit that some Wiccans claim their religion is ancient. However, this claim cannot be substantiated, and most Wiccan authors admit the religion of Wicca is less than a hundred years old.

But, on the other hand, it is true that Wicca is based on ancient religions. To give an example, one Wiccan Rite is called Dianic Wicca, where the Greek lunar goddess Diana is worshiped. Another is the Celtic Rite, where the Cerunnunos is worshiped. But the ancient Greeks were not "Wiccans", and neither were the Druids, although various Wiccan groups draw heavily from them. In a sense, Wicca could be viewed as a continuation of pre-Christian, European, polytheistic religions, but it isn't the exact same religion as was practiced then. Also, Wicca has a large emphasis on magic, the forms of which are derived from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

But just because Wicca isn't as old as some people claim it to be, that doesn't denigrate Wicca at all. All religions had to begin some time, and whether it's a million years old or 5 minutes old is irrelevant in regard to the central questions, i.e., is it truth, and does it lead it's followers to better lives. If so, it's relatively young age is of no concern.

I have followed your link ML and I must quote a small piece of it here. This information can be found about a quarter of the way down the page under the heading of "Is Wicca a form of Satanism?"

It also called crowley a satanist, which is also incorrect. But the information concerning Wicca's age is legitimate, and is confirmed by Wiccan scholars themselves (see the quote I posted by Ms. Ravenwolf, one of Wicca's most respected authors and practitioners).

Simply put, there was no mention of Wicca anywhere before Gardner. Even the word "Wicca" is taken from the Welsh word "wicce", which means "to twist", i.e., it seems that Gardner may have even used that name as a Crowley-type joke to show that it's purpose was to twist the Golden Dawn system of Ceremonial Magick into a modern earth-based religion.

The following link on the subject is from the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia, and features the following quote:

" Gerald B. Gardner is considered the first founding father of all modern incarnations of Wicca. Some of his students later went on to found other Wiccan traditions, from which arose more branches, continuing the process of self-perpetuation. Gerald Gardner is one of many practitioners of a magical religion which has come to be known as Wicca. In his writing, the word Wica is used, but in practice, his coven members did not use the word outside of their initiatory rites, according to Robert, a member of the coven. Gardner became famous by publishing books on the craft or witchcraft"

religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu...

I am by no means saying that various forms of witchcraft were not practiced in ancient times; my point is simply that primitive witchcraft among tribal communities has little to do with today's religion of Wicca.

OK I am beginning to understand a bit more now. I can see that what is practised today is most likely not just what was practiced in ancient Mesopotamia, but probably did stem from it in some ways.

By the way I found some interesting sites that talk about the origin of the word Wicca or Wicce. Here is one: Flinders University Pagan Association

www.flindersclubs.asn.au...

As for some ancient document in the hands of the AF - well, Paganism as I know it, and Wicca as I have researched it, are belief systems of life, nature, natural laws, etc - and are typically not written down outside of a personal "Book of Shadows."
I believe that this, in fact, is one of the many reasons why paganism probably doesn't survive in its original form.
I would have to hear much more about this to give it any credance what so ever and I agree that we have no written documents of the age this thread originator claims.
Certainly Shadow Ghost must have based the belief in this document on something. I would be most interested to hear what that would be.
Please enlighten us with this theory SG that we may measure it.

Thanks be both to Masonic Light and Leveller for properly explaining things, saves me alot of breath.

Wicca as we know it today as an idea movement is new.

But Wicca is a form of paganism. Paganism itself if a broad term describing many different religons of old that were revived. The word pagan was an old Roman term meaning "country dweller" to describe people whi lived outside the empire, people who the Romans considered "barbarians" and unsophisticated.

Pagan religon itself is humanity's oldest faith. Before history itself, people worshiped spirits, ghosts, and unseen forces, which later became gods and godesses. The main basis for pagan faiths is nature and natural law, and mans place between the divine and earthly. The Romans themselves were later considered pagans by the Christians.

There is no holy book of Wicca. There is no holy city, land, ect. There are many sites considered sacred. Earth itself is considered the temple. And divinity takes many forms to whoever is percieving the divine.

So yes and no, Wicca did and didnt come from Freemasonry. Former Masons did indeed start the first "covens" and magic societies. And if any Wiccans are curious where the the ideas for the set up of the altar, look to Freemasonry. The use of Athame or ceremonial sword came from our Freemason friends, who, like witches, were also mercilessly persecuted by the Church. Much ceremonial or "high magic" or "hermetic magic" comes from the Freemasons.

"Low magic" or the more naturalistic side of Wicca, is far older, perhaps dating back to our first awakening as humans.