EU leaders threaten the UK over BREXIT.

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Now you're shifting the goalposts because you got an answer that doesn't fit your way of thinking?

Like we didn't see this coming.

It was decided upon by the Parliament of Scotland (Estates of Parliament) and the Parliament of England, which had elected officials.

And before you start, no, the "peasants" didn't have a voice, just like most other countries 300+ years ago.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: TheKnightofDoom
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Union with England Act passed in 1707.

How many Scots voted on it.?

Its hardly the English fault if in 1706 the Scots decided not to hold a referendum and permit all persons over the age of 18 to vote in it. You should have been more enlightened

a reply to: TerryDon79

We even PMed about it lol .

originally posted by: TheKnightofDoom
a reply to: TerryDon79

We even PMed about it lol

.

He's definitely predictable, if nothing else lol.

Wow, some people need to take a chill pill. I love the Scots and a Scot loved me once. She could not give a toss about Bannockburn, just like I could not give a toss about Flodden, or Halidon Hill.

Talking of chill pills, and dragging us back to the OP as this endless Scottish divisional debate is pretty repetitive and divisive…

On BREXIT the French seem to be quite vociferous, as you would expect, and Luxembourg (pop. 500,000) are also a bit bitter too - could it be the potential loss of tax derived from the UK? Other EU leaders seem to be more accommodating and pragmatic.

When it comes to it, the EU moderates will help forge a constructive and mutually beneficial exit for the UK, regardless of Juncker’s squalled anti-British front, noting that Junker, the unelected EU top dog, also happens to be Luxembourgish.

Quotes fron EU Leaders

Portuguese Prime Minister Antonio Costa "We want to work towards a constructive, open and close relationship with the UK, both bilaterally and also in terms of the UK's relationship with the EU as a whole. The UK can leave the EU, but the UK doesn't stop being a big European partner."

a reply to: Soloprotocol

Still making your bigoted, racist bollocks I see Solo.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were deliberately winding people up, but you wouldn't do that would you......?

I fully support the Brexit vote - please show how I'm one of the 99.9% "bigoted rascist zealots".
In fact please show exactly how even one member here on ATS meets that description.
To be honest I'd say its actually more of an accurate description of your good self.

For the record; the biggest deciding factor in me voting to exit the EU was simply down to sovereignty - the EU openly states it wishes to do eliminate independent nationhood within the EU.
I can't support that - surely as a so-called Nationalist you can appreciate that?

All dreams of an independent Scotland or even a Scotland with devolved powers that it has now will be a long forgotten and forbidden dream under the fiercely autocratic EU.
Yet you'd willingly surrender all that just to witness some sort of imagined victory over the bastard English and the UK as a whole.

It must be so tiring and miserable being consumed with such hatred.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Still making your bigoted, racist bollocks I see Solo.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were deliberately winding people up, but you wouldn't do that would you......?
I

I suspect that is exactly what he is doing. I am sure some people did vote for Brexit for vaguely racist or xenophobic reasons I would think this is fairly small minority.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol

I fully support the Brexit vote - please show how I'm one of the 99.9% "bigoted rascist zealots".
In fact please show exactly how even one member here on ATS meets that description.

If you think there is no one on ATS who meets that description then here are clearly some threads you are just not reading (which is probably a good thing).

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Soloprotocol

For the record; the biggest deciding factor in me voting to exit the EU was simply down to sovereignty - the EU openly states it wishes to do eliminate independent nationhood within the EU.
I can't support that - surely as a so-called Nationalist you can appreciate that?

All dreams of an independent Scotland or even a Scotland with devolved powers that it has now will be a long forgotten and forbidden dream under the fiercely autocratic EU.
Yet

The EU does more to support devolved power than the UK ever has. The idea that being in the EU means completely giving up independence is just wrong. I would totally agree that the EU in its current form is deeply flawed, but I think there was a better case for trying to change it or to stay in the raft of exceptions we enjoyed than to storm off into what is very uncertain times.

originally posted by: paraphi

When it comes to it, the EU moderates will help forge a constructive and mutually beneficial exit for the UK, regardless of Juncker’s squalled anti-British front, noting that Junker, the unelected EU top dog, also happens to be Luxembourgish.

Quotes fron EU Leaders

Portuguese Prime Minister Antonio Costa "We want to work towards a constructive, open and close relationship with the UK, both bilaterally and also in terms of the UK's relationship with the EU as a whole. The UK can leave the EU, but the UK doesn't stop being a big European partner."

My worry isn't lack of moderates on the EU side but the lack of moderates on the UK government side.

There seems to be a strange delusion among senior members of the cabinet (at least in public) that the UK is the one in the best position when it comes to these negotiations and that we can set our own terms for leaving.

originally posted by: crazyewok

Dont whinge at us English and welch for haveing the guts you didnt to reclaim our sovereignty .

What's your problem with the Celts? I've noticed you always spell Welsh welch?

You 'sir' are a racist!!!

a reply to: djz3ro

Whereas "Welsh" is the common spelling, the term "Welch" is also a description of people from Wales. I think the word "Welch" is still used in some military regiments, for example.

It's not racist, so hope you are having a bit of a joke.

It's a bit of an old term, but then Crazyewok could be 250 years old!

originally posted by: ScepticScot
The EU does more to support devolved power than the UK ever has.

The idea that being in the EU means completely giving up independence is just wrong. I would totally agree that the EU in its current form is deeply flawed,

Really?? you believe that!!

In the first instance the 'people' were never even asked IF they

wanted to be a part of the EU. The 'people' were told it was

just for trade .... and then gradually laws etc were being interfeared with

and our government was signing us up to this treaty, and that treaty, and the

'people' were being patronisingly told it was nothing to bother

our tiny little heads with .... all the while the UK was gradually being

devoured by the EU.

but I think there was a better case for trying to change it or to stay in the raft of exceptions we enjoyed

What cloud are you on? You just have to remember how much David Cameron

got in concessions to keep the UK in the EU.

than to storm off into what is very uncertain times.

Sometimes the greatest achievements are accomplished when your back is

against the wall!!

a reply to: ScepticScot

I suspect that is exactly what he is doing. I am sure some people did vote for Brexit for vaguely racist or xenophobic reasons I would think this is fairly small minority.

Yes, of course there are some who voted Brexit for racist or xenophobic reasons, to deny that would be stupid.
But as you say, and certainly judging on my own personal experiences, I would say they were a small minority.

Solo is by far one of the most racist or xenophobic members I've seen here on ATS, and I've been here a few years now.
I'd even surmise that it's those traits that influence most of his posts here on ATS and his voting.....but I guess its ok because its directed towards the English and not any other demographic.

If you think there is no one on ATS who meets that description then here are clearly some threads you are just not reading (which is probably a good thing).

Of course there are.
I was trying to get Solo to give some sort of evidence to support his bigotry.
And if he ever does I'm certain I'd be able to give far more evidence to the contrary.

But I haven't been round here very much recently, for various reasons.
In fact its probably been my quietest period of activity on ATS since I joined.

I wouldn't be surprised if I'm a bit rusty and out of touch.

The EU does more to support devolved power than the UK ever has.

Any evidence to support that?

Its a stated aim that the EU intends to ensure that the EU Parliament will be the ultimate authority and its powers will override ALL elected national assemblies.

Currently Scotland has 59 MP's out of the total 650 MP's = just over 9%.
Total number of Scots in the UK accounts for just over 8% of the population.

Currently Scotland has 6 MEP's out of the total 751 MEP's = approximately 0.8%.
Total number of Scots in the EU accounts for just over 1% of the population.

So at present Scotland is marginally over represented in The House of Commons whilst being slightly under represented in the EU Parliament.

Just how influential do you think Scotland's 6 MEP's will be in the EU?

So, an independent Scotland in the EU will have very little representation, the devolved powers in Holyrood will be rendered almost useless and you'll also have the Euro imposed upon you - I'm sure you can remember how desperate Salmond, Sturgeon and The Nats were to cling on to Sterling, (the Pound will recover with time).

The idea that being in the EU means completely giving up independence is just wrong.

Sorry, as much as I would like to think you are right I just don't see it.
All the evidence and stated aims of the EU suggests otherwise.

But Scotland will do as Scotland see's fit - as is only right and proper.

I would totally agree that the EU in its current form is deeply flawed, but I think there was a better case for trying to change it or to stay in the raft of exceptions we enjoyed than to storm off into what is very uncertain times.

The same argument could easily be made - and has been - for Scotland remaining within the UK.

Personally I think the ties that bind us here in the UK are fartoo close for us to make a complete break.
That argument can't be made with continental Europe.

Yes, Westminster needs urgent and radical reform.
Yes, we need to break away from the London / Home Counties centric nature of UK politics and society.

But it pales into insignificance when compared to the autocratic nature of the EU and the rampant corruption that is ever present in every single level.

Of course I see the benefits of a Free Trade Association - what most British people voted for.
I can even see the benefits of a joint Defence Policy etc.
Providing certain restrictions and regulations were put in place I can even see why Freedom of Movement would be beneficial.
But I will never, ever support political union.
The ultimate authority in the UK must lie with the elected assemblies of the UK.

And for the record - I see people continually stating that they fear for immigrants and their families here in the UK.
No-one, not one single politician or campaigner, has ever stated that foreign nationals would be repatriated in the event of Brexit.
The people who are here are here and will remain so, if they so wish.

If anyone advocates any other then they are idiots of the highest order.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, its been a while.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: djz3ro

Whereas "Welsh" is the common spelling, the term "Welch" is also a description of people from Wales. I think the word "Welch" is still used in some military regiments, for example.

It's not racist, so hope you are having a bit of a joke.

It's a bit of an old term, but then Crazyewok could be 250 years old!

Yeah, I don't actually think he's entirely racist (he could do with backing off any Scot who mentions the 2014 Referendum though). And cheers, I didn't know that

a reply to: eletheia

The people were asked, they got asked at every general election. We have a parliamentary democracy, that's how it works.

The UK has a pretty unique relationship with the EU. Not in the Euro, the schengen area, the rebate to our contributions and more.

This isn't a commando comic. This is the future economic health of the UK. Meaning the jobs and prosperity for millions of us. I for one would rather have had a much better idea of what is over the wall before we jump it.

a reply to: Freeborn

Apologies for a relatively short reply to your detailed post. On phone not laptop.

I think your post sums up exactly where we disagree. I see the problems with the EU as much less severe and much more likely to be reformed than Westminster.

The structure of the EU is flawed but it is far more democratic the the UK. (Unless you can show me EU legislators appointed based on the church they represent or who their great great grandparents shagged).

I also agree that you could make the same case for Scotland staying within the UK and arguing for reform. The problem is that no UK party is making an argument for reform. ( Look how quickly the libdems rolled over to get their belly scratched).

There is no scenario at the moment that EU is about to become a 'super state' or remove national sovereignty. There is simply no appetite for this either with EU population or politicians.

In short I think we have thrown away a very advantages position within the EU for no clearly defined benefit.

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: djz3ro

Whereas "Welsh" is the common spelling, the term "Welch" is also a description of people from Wales. I think the word "Welch" is still used in some military regiments, for example.

It's not racist, so hope you are having a bit of a joke.

It's a bit of an old term, but then Crazyewok could be 250 years old!

Yeah, I don't actually think he's entirely racist (he could do with backing off any Scot who mentions the 2014 Referendum though). And cheers, I didn't know that

I have a revelation for you. Its not racist to say welch. Its not a RACE its a CULTURAL thing,And beside dont you know "race" outside of saying Human race isnt accurate?

originally posted by: yuppa
I have a revelation for you. Its not racist to say welch. Its not a RACE its a CULTURAL thing,And beside dont you know "race" outside of saying Human race isnt accurate?

I have a revelation for you too, I wasn't joking about him being racist becasue of that, more because of the way he starts slagging off Scots everytime they mention the Scottish Referendum, even when relevant.

To be honest I think we're getting off very lightly so far, the EU was more powerful than the UK to begin with but the country was very divided over the issue, it only took a few hours after the result was announced for a lot of brexit campaings/promises were just lies (i.e NHS funding), Labour went into complete meltdown leadership race for their own selfish reasons rather than public good, we have a new PM and cabinet and can barely hold the nation together - yet despite all this being public the government are deluded enough to push to a tough brexit at a time when the country is as weak and inneffective as it's ever been in my lifetime.

If anything they've been doing us a favour by not seizing/reseizing control, removing all the benefits we had of being in the EU and capitalising on the recent /ongoing dissaray. If anything it makes me have a far more positive view of the chances of the UK surviving post Brexit (though still don't think it's a likely outcome).

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: djz3ro

Whereas "Welsh" is the common spelling, the term "Welch" is also a description of people from Wales. I think the word "Welch" is still used in some military regiments, for example.

It's not racist, so hope you are having a bit of a joke.

It's a bit of an old term, but then Crazyewok could be 250 years old!

Yeah, I don't actually think he's entirely racist (he could do with backing off any Scot who mentions the 2014 Referendum though). And cheers, I didn't know that

I have a revelation for you. Its not racist to say welch. Its not a RACE its a CULTURAL thing,And beside dont you know "race" outside of saying Human race isnt accurate?

In the UK it is defined as racist to discriminate against people based on ethnicity or nationality.

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: yuppa
I have a revelation for you. Its not racist to say welch. Its not a RACE its a CULTURAL thing,And beside dont you know "race" outside of saying Human race isnt accurate?

I have a revelation for you too, I wasn't joking about him being racist becasue of that, more because of the way he starts slagging off Scots everytime they mention the Scottish Referendum, even when relevant.

You have to have a RACE to be RACIST. is that clear enough?

@sceptic. Well your definition in the UK is wrong and based off of bleeding hearts feelings. Its not scientific.