Yale Psychiatrist show that Psychic Abilities exist

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

With respect to the OP and truth telling with regard to the subjects. Its possible they injected them with Sodium Amytal (or some equivalent) and then conducted an interview specifically about the voices they hear.

They used what is generally referred to as a "Truth Serum" one that actually works.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: sputniksteve


Wild animals in general do not respond in general of Operant Conditioning, or for that matter the Skinnerian Perspective.

Domesticated Animals do and with respect to Humans and in general often, do not respond the same way Wild Animals respond to a Stressor.

Might I suggest you review the data related to the "Stanford Prison Experiment".

I'm terribly sorry but I can't even begin to see how that applies to my question to Phage. If it's possible to clarify?

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: sputniksteve

originally posted by: Phage

The skeptic has been saying for years that Psychics are liars and charlatans but this study is telling us that some Psychics are telling the truth.

No. It isn't. It says that some people really think they hear voices that don't originate from their own heads.

Just in case someone doesn't read the article, it says that you don't have to be tormented by those voices you hear. It just depend on your point of view.

They found that the voices experienced by this group are similar in many ways to those reported by people with schizophrenia, with a few big differences: Psychics are much more likely to perceive the voices as positive or helpful and as experiences that can be controlled, according to a new study published Sept. 28 in the journal Schizophrenia Bulletin.

How is that not the same thing as telling the truth?

Schizophrenic people are telling the truth when they say they hear voices in their brains. They do hear voices in their brains.

Yes I know, that's why I am asking Phage why he is implying that the statement is untrue. The quote he replied to is imperative to seeing the relevance of my question.

a reply to: sputniksteve


It does not just depend upon a point of view.

A negative Hallucinatory experience related to Schizophrenia, immerses a patient with that condition with regard to all the senses.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: sputniksteve


It does not just depend upon a point of view.

A negative Hallucinatory experience related to Schizophrenia, immerses a patient with that condition with regard to all the senses.

I am sorry, I am not trying to be difficult but I still have no clue how it pertains. I feel like you are trying to be cryptic. My question was pretty simple and shouldn't need any riddles to answer.

a reply to: sputniksteve


In PTSD a person can become so immersed in a past experience that they no longer respond to there environment as if it does relate to some past experience. So instead of seeing a car pulling out of a parking spot at a Walmart they see a tank
and for the rest they are in a sensorial way, in every sense reliving this experience as if they were actually their.

That is how having negative experiences in relation to Schizophrenia can e like.

Further reading...

Abstract
Structural magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) data have provided much evidence in support of our current view that schizophrenia is a brain disorder with altered brain structure, and consequently involving more than a simple disturbance in neurotransmission. This review surveys 118 peer–reviewed studies with control group from 1987 to May 1998. Most studies (81%) do not find abnormalities of whole brain/intracranial contents, while lateral ventricle enlargement is reported in 77%, and third ventricle enlargement in 67%. The temporal lobe was the brain parenchymal region with the most consistently documented abnormalities. Volume decreases were found in 62% of 37 studies of whole temporal lobe, and in 81% of 16 studies of the superior temporal gyrus (and in 100% with gray matter separately evaluated). Fully 77% of the 30 studies of the medial temporal lobe reported volume reduction in one or more of its constituent structures (hippocampus, amygdala, parahippocampal gyrus).

Despite evidence for frontal lobe functional abnormalities, structural MRI investigations less consistently found abnormalities, with 55% describing volume reduction. It may be that frontal lobe volume changes are small, and near the threshold for MRI detection. The parietal and occipital lobes were much less studied; about half of the studies showed positive findings. Most studies of cortical gray matter (86%) found volume reductions were not diffuse, but more pronounced in certain areas. About two thirds of the studies of subcortical structures of thalamus, corpus callosum and basal ganglia (which tend to increase volume with typical neuroleptics), show positive findings, as do almost all (91%) studies of cavum septi pellucidi (CSP). Most data were consistent with a developmental model, but growing evidence was compatible also with progressive, neurodegenerative features, suggesting a “two– hit” model of schizophrenia, for which a cellular hypothesis is discussed. The relationship of clinical symptoms to MRI findings is reviewed, as is the growing evidence suggesting structural abnormalities differ in affective (bipolar) psychosis and schizophrenia.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


The brains are different.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

With respect to the OP and truth telling with regard to the subjects. Its possible they injected them with Sodium Amytal (or some equivalent) and then conducted an interview specifically about the voices they hear.

They used what is generally referred to as a "Truth Serum" one that actually works.

Again, a schizophrenic person who hears voices in their brains will be very truthful in saying that they hear voices in their brains, because they do. The source of those voices may be due to a metal disorder and/or a brain chemical imbalance, but their brains are telling them they really do hear voices. They aren't lying.

The same may be true for people suffering from a form of schizophrenia that makes them think the voices are because they are receiving psychic messages. These people may not actually be receiving psychic messages, but their brains are telling them that they really do hear voices, which may perhaps be due to the same type of mental disorder and/or a brain chemical imbalance that makes other schizophrenics hear voices.

That is to say, a truth serum would be useless on either type of person, because each person is truly hearing voices in their heads. Schizophrenics are not "faking the voices", and neither are the class of schizophrenics who call themselves "psychic".

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


For various reasons there are people who lie about hearing voices so a truth serum can determine that.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


For various reasons there are people who lie about hearing voices so a truth serum can determine that.

Yes, but the point of the research mentioned in the OP was to find people who really and truly believed they were hearing voices in their brains, but felt that the voices were a positive thing in their lives (such as people who believed the voices in their brains were due to psychic ability), rather than people who heard voices in their heads and were debilitated by them, such as people who could not function daily because the voices tormented them.

I don't think either of these groups of people who brains caused them to hear voices would say anything different under a "truth serum", because to them they are actually telling the truth about hearing the voices.


However, just because a person truly believes himself to be psychic because he really does hear voices in his head, that doesn't necessarily mean that the voices are due to real psychic ability; it could be just a mental disorder causing his brain to create voices. In addition, the Yale researcher running the study did not necessarily specify if he thought the voices heard by the self-described psychics were due to real psychic ability.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
However, just because a person truly believes himself to be psychic because he really does hear voices in his head, that doesn't necessarily mean that the voices are due to real psychic ability; it could be just a mental disorder causing his brain to create voices. In addition, the Yale researcher running the study did not necessarily specify if he thought the voices heard by the self-described psychics were due to real psychic ability.

That is what some of us are trying to tell the OP but he won't have it

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


That would depend on the information the person can provide in relation to what these voices are saying.


I mean if a person hears voices that tell the police where to find a missing person and based on that information they are found that is extraordinary.

What makes a person psychic is that they would be able to do that.

One reason a person like that would not be able to do the same thing in an experimental setting is matter of the stressors related to the missing person. It would be ethically inappropriate to put a person though similar stressors for scientific research.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


That would depend on the information the person can provide in relation to what these voices are saying.


I mean if a person hears voices that tell the police where to find a missing person and based on that information they are found that is extraordinary.

What makes a person psychic is that they would be able to do that.

One reason a person like that would not be able to do the same thing in an experimental setting is matter of the stressors related to the missing person. It would be ethically inappropriate to put a person though similar stressors for scientific research.

I'm only talking about this as it relates to the OP saying that the Yale scientist is indicating that psychic ability is real.

The OP's logic for saying this was that since the Yale scientist was looking for people who call themselves psychics because they truly believe the voices in their own heads is due to real psychic ability, that must mean that the Yale scientist believed their psychic ability was real.

My point is that the Yale scientist was interested in these people not because HE (the scientist) truly believed the people were psychic, but because THEY (those people themselves) truly believed that they were psychic.

The belief by those people that they were psychic was germane to the study. Whether or not the Yale scientist believed in psychic ability was irrelevant to the study.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


That reasoning for why the Yale Psychiatrist related to these subjects as psychic is not elaborated upon with respect to the OP's reference.

Myself I can speculate as to possible reasons but to be honest currently consciousness is not fully understood by any stretch of the imagination.

The idea of functional Schizophrenia could fall under the DSM diagnosis of Pseudo neurotic schizophrenia....

en.wikipedia.org...

But when it comes to symptomatology these individuals are vastly more functional in the sense they contribute to society.

Hopefully you did read the post where I provided a link to the matter of High IQ Schizophrenia as well as the post that presents the Animals to not develop this condition.


Believing one is psychic as expressed has to do with the quality of the information as relevant to real issues.

The Human Stress Response: What Does Everyone Need to Know?

From Bloom, S. L. and Farragher, B. (2010) Destroying Sanctuary: The Crisis in Human Service Delivery Systems. New York: Oxford University Press. (pp. 102-106)

Like other animals, humans have formed a highly effective protective system that evolved in our original evolutionary environment when human beings lived in small groups of family members and were threatened by hungry predators. This defensive action system is a total body mobilization, driven by powerful neurochemicals that flood our brain and body. To survive, we must pay attention to any information from the environment that might help us, so many of our senses become more acute—eyes dilate, hearing improves, smells sharpen. Whenever threatened, our attention becomes riveted on the potential threat, and we become hypervigilant to what is going on in our surroundings. Peripheral details are screened out as our brain filters in only the most relevant information about the threat. This state is called “hyperarousal” (Horowitz 1986). Below the level of our conscious awareness, we choose appropriate survival-based action: fight, flight, freeze, appease. If we survive the threat, recuperation follows, which is characterized by rest and isolation, wound care, and gradual return to daily activities (van der Hart, Nijenhuis et al. 2005). [.ex]

www.mvbcn.org...

It is possible that we can and do respond to stress by engaging in Psychic behavior.

That theoretically does suggest psychic ability is a developmental issue.

originally posted by: Kashai
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


That reasoning for why the Yale Psychiatrist related to these subjects as psychic is not elaborated upon with respect to the OP's reference.

Correct. Which is why it is inaccurate for the OP to say "Yale Psychiatrist shows that Psychic Abilities exist".

The Yale psychiatrist didn't do that. He may have labeled these people as "psychic", but that was only because they themselves felt they were psychic (which was very important to the study), not because he necessarily believed they were psychic.

Maybe they were psychic, maybe they weren't psychic. We can discuss evidence of psychic abilities all we want, and maybe even find evidence that proves psychic abilities exist. However, the Yale scientist never implied that the people he called psychic really were psychic, nor did he imply that they weren't psychic. That's why the title of this thread is not accurate.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People


As long as that is the case (and today there have been no addendums elaborating this issue) all we can do is speculate as to cause. It could be that they were people who worked with law enforcement in which case there would be privacy issues to take into consideration.

But essentially as long as that information is not provided its falls into the category of an opinion as to cause.

We were never debating or stating that psychic abilities/oddities exists or not, we were completely pointing out that the OPs wrongly interpretation of the Articles was incorrect, that was all.

If the OP had started a thread with all of his research in it with a title like "Convincing Evidence that Psychic Abilities Exist" and the like it would of been much better and engaging and wouldn't of left the OP with 17 pages of "Ah, it did NOT say that" and a nasty stain on his name showing his true colors that he is never wrong and making up everything possible to say he was right.

But alas here we are.

a reply to: MuonToGluon


At issue is why a Psychiatrist educated at Yale would even bring up such an issue in the fist place.

The matter of High IQ Schizophrenia could have acted as a valid explanation as to cause for the sake of discussion.

In so far as the data, such a response would have had the effect in discussion of a confirmed phenomenon scientifically.

Again you are simply speculating as to cause which could actually be the result of a false conclusion or you are psychic.

a reply to: MuonToGluon


In all sincerity had he done that he would have received numerous accolades and also perhaps funding to continue his research.

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Did you even read the study or the article?

You said:

The Yale psychiatrist didn't do that. He may have labeled these people as "psychic", but that was only because they themselves felt they were psychic (which was very important to the study), not because he necessarily believed they were psychic.

Wrong, these people had to go through tests and it was shown that they hear these voices but they also have some control over these voices.

Powers worked with Yale neuroscience graduate student Megan Kelley and assistant professor of psychiatry and senior author on the paper Phillip Corlett to study a group of people called clairaudient psychics. These are people who report receiving daily audio messages. These individuals who reported hearing voices on a regular basis were given tests from forensic psychiatry designed to be able to recognize people who falsely claim to be hearing voices so that they could avoid criminal prosecution. After being tested, it was determined that both the psychosis patients and the psychics scored similarly on the tests meant to detect fake claims of hearing voices. It was noted that the ones with schizophrenia were much more likely to report negative experiences when they heard voices or when they discussed the voices they heard with others.

This is a biological bases for Psychic ability. These Psychics didn't just say they were doing these things and the Researchers blindly accepted them at their word. That makes no sense.

You keep acting like these people wandered in from nowhere and said they were Psychic and that was it. They had to go through tests and what this shows is that these Psychics have the ABILITY to have some control over these voices.

“These individuals have a much higher degree of control over the voices. They also have a greater willingness to engage with and view the voices as positive or neutral to their lives,” said Corlett. “We predict this population will teach us a lot about the neurobiology, cognitive psychology, and eventually treatment of distressing voices.”

It's exactly as I said.

This shows that psychic ability exists. How can you have clairaudient psychics if they don't have the ABILITY to talk to and have some control over these voices?

When you watch some Psychics they will say he showed me me this or she's telling me to look here. Because of studies like these we know these Psychics are talking to these voices and we have a way to begin to guage whether the Psychic is really talking to voices or they're just faking it.

This is huge and shows psychic ability exists.

This is also why I listed the cases from Detectives where Psychics helped them. You know this ability exists now you can see how accurate is the information it is you're getting from the Psychic.

You can't say a Psychic is a liar because this test shows that they're talking to and hearing voices. All that's left to do is weigh the information the psychic is giving you. Is it accurate? If it's accurate, how did these voices give her/him accurate information?

Some of the information by the Forensic Psychic:
- victim murdered
- suspect was heavy with drugs
- she sold flowers
- (showed police where the abduction took place)
- suspect believed victim stole money from him
- victim shot, can feel the bullet
- victim bled
- males were holding her physically
- they were keeping the victim down
- showed police where victim was murdered
- man and woman taking her out of the truck
- there's a jacket he took off the victim and threw it up in the air and landed on a tree
- dragged boy in the woods and left her there
- male returned and stumped victim in the neck with boots
- there's graffiti near the bridge where the body is.

Police Comments:

1) Detective Kenny Kirkland: "I remember what Carol Pate told me (about the case) and indeed it became true ... My reaction to the female confession accomplice I had heard it all before ... was told to me before by Carol .... We were shocked ...she (the psychic) was able to tell us what each person (overseeing several photographs) did and what their part was in the crime. She just reaffirmed that I don't know anybody who could do that ... to be able to narrow it down to just one place (from a huge area near Lake Roberts) ... it's pretty outstanding."

2) Det. David Stewart:
"Carol Pate got several things right when dealing with the case ... and so Carol Pate obviously has some special gifts to be able to do things that a normal person cannot do. She was able to tell us things about the case she knew nothing about (before she started). It was pretty phenomenal she was able to do that."

3) Detective Dan Savage: "We found the psychic was to be absolutely right: she was right the victim was shot. She was right about the blue car. She was right about the rushing water. She was right about the lover's triangle. She was right about the wooden fence. She was right about the shallow grave, about the leaves…” The direct and indirect message to the television viewers: “ I’d call her again in future investigations.”

4) Detective Roosevelt Turner - Miami DADE Police Department: “We had nothing to go on (before the psychic came on the scene) … she was correct on everything she told us … from his (the killer’s) initials ... where the scene was ... his occupation ... the letters … it turned out to be true… Initially I did not believe in psychics but working with Ms Dahne I found psychics could be very helpful. I definitely work with psychics again.”

5) Sgt. Eugene Wood, “The physical description fitted exactly what the psychic told us … she couldn’t have been more accurate …This was just incredibly right-on! I doubt if we could have solved the case without Jeanne Borgen’s (the psychic) help … I recommend any police department to use a gifted psychic …”

6) Sgt. Skip Mefford: Everything the psychic told us was precise … It was my first experience with anything like that – and it was absolutely incredible!

www.victorzammit.com...

There isn't a question whether these Psychics have the ability to engage with and have some control over these voices. he Yale Researchers showed they have this ability. The only question becomes, do any of the Psychics give accurate information and the answer is clearly yes.