What thinks? Where do we draw the line?

a reply to: artistpoet

We all originated as nothing i can see what you are saying. Intelligence is around us wheter we see it or not

a reply to: Itisnowagain

That is true, animals definitely have the ability to think in my opinion. What about plants?

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
What thinks????
The assumption here is that you think!

Well, I do experience thinking, even if it is an illusion, this illusion exists in some things and not others. Does it exist in bacteria?

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Thought is just empty echos of concepts strung together that are moot except to put them into some kind of action by way of intent. Having thoughts become a chemical reaction that leads to emotion etc. is no different than the bacterial reaction.

In mental quiescence there is no need for thought one simply acts as appropriate to the given situation or stimulus that arises... animals are similar as they can manipulate their environment and build tools to solve problems as well.

The reasoning for this is that life is energy and it will always seek to follow the path of least resistance or recoil from adversity, be it pain, poison, or danger etc. and well the adaptation to those things is evolution in itself seeking balance. One doesn't need to think about not grabbing fire that only occurs once and then the lesson is learned or evolution of the mind took place understanding that contact.

Keeping someone else from it, eventually turns into the monkey in the cage experiment people acting or behaving in a certain way and don't even know why. Someone did this experiment again recently with humans in a waiting room and guess what? We were no different. Hive mind is learned behavior... it's mimicry and we have adapted to do as others do for survival, as the group must be doing that for some good reason and in such a thing we can easily become controlled or peer pressured into behaviors and roles that do no good for the world much less for oneself.

That's just always the way it was done around here... until it isn't.

originally posted by: darkbake

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
What thinks????
The assumption here is that you think!

Well, I do experience thinking, even if it is an illusion, this illusion exists in some things and not others. Does it exist in bacteria?

The difference is that the human thinks about itself outside of now - the human imagines time. The human imagine itself as a thing interacting with other things. I would say all other creatures respond to what is actually happening - whereas humans react to what is going on in their heads (what is not really happening).

Have you watched this video where physicist David Bohm speaks about 'self centred thought'? Maybe animals and even bacteria have thoughts but it is unlikely that they have 'self centred thoughts'.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: Itisnowagain

That is true, animals definitely have the ability to think in my opinion. What about plants?

No thing has the ability to think. Thinking happens - no thing is doing thinking.
The assumption is that there is a 'you' that can decide to think. If you have the ability to think then you would also have the ability to have no thoughts.
Thoughts happen and the thoughts speak of someone who thinks.
There is no who.

The 'who' that is assumed by thinking isn't!!

a reply to: Itisnowagain

You blow my mind with every comment sir

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: Blaine91555

I should find more specific wording to use. I'm specifically talking about temporal awareness and things like learning from past experience and making beneficial choices towards a future outcome. I'm interested in how that works, even if it is only through chemistry. In the end, I want to compare and contrast the "thinking" a bacteria does with the thinking we do.

I am wondering if temporal awareness, no matter how it is generated, is a facet of life. It seems to be all the way down to bacteria. It is not present in a rock or else the rock would start learning from experience and making choices.

That's a pretty good description of evolution and how it works. "Temporal awareness" is a much better way to phrase it.

Temporal awareness would seem to be necessary for life to evolve and survive. I get what you're after.

a reply to: Blaine91555

Thanks, I'm glad you see my point. Upon further research into this subject, I have learned that bacteria have mechanisms that allow them to swim towards food and away from poisons. However, this is limited to a set of sensors that detect the surrounding chemistry and a set of appendages to allow the bacteria to swim. The mechanism for decision-making with movement is not known for sure, however I could see this being entirely Newtonian.

But things get even more complicated, as bacteria have the ability to communicate with each other if they are in a colony and do things like get a consensus on invading another organism or talk to each other to figure out how many are in their colony. The question is, what is making the decisions?

How do Bacteria Make Decisions?

There could be two explanations to this - one, there is a mechanism that generates free will for the bacteria in order to make decisions. This would basically be a miniature quantum computer packed somewhere in the bacteria. The second explanation is that bacteria evolved with a memory that allows them to compare the present moment to a moment in the past in order to detect changes in the surrounding environment. But what is doing the momentary thinking? What is doing the observing? What is comparing the moment to the past and then making a decision? It could potentially be entirely Newtonian, such as some kind of mechanical mechanism, or it could be quantum in nature and more spiritual.

I'm continuing to look into how bacteria make decisions.

a reply to: darkbake

Yes blame Newton and you'll find a fig tree

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: Itisnowagain

That is true, animals definitely have the ability to think in my opinion. What about plants?

No thing has the ability to think. Thinking happens - no thing is doing thinking.
The assumption is that there is a 'you' that can decide to think. If you have the ability to think then you would also have the ability to have no thoughts.
Thoughts happen and the thoughts speak of someone who thinks.
There is no who.

The 'who' that is assumed by thinking isn't!!

Well - let's see. Would you agree that there is an illusion of who? And that this illusion of who is not present in non-life? I can question my existence, can a rock?

At any rate, that's not specifically what I should say - the ability to make choices is what I'm talking about. A memory is like a sense allows the decision-maker to detect changes in the environment over time, and this helps with decision-making. But what calculates the decision? One thing to look for in particular is if the decision-maker maintains unpredictability, for example, to defy what would be in its best interest or maybe a mistake is made and a careless decision is made.

This unpredictability is a quantum trait. If it was all Newtonian, a bacteria would not be able to make a decision that defies reason (as best as it knows with the senses it has).

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Newton got a lot of things figured out, he was a pretty cool guy. I wonder what went through his head though to invent calculus and physics, two of my favorite subjects. The problem is, Newton's theories fall apart at high speeds (which is explained by Einstein and relativity) and fall apart at small distances (explained by quantum physics).

But look at how much is not explained. How quantum physics works is not explained. Even gravity is not explained. That's where I think string theory comes in, and this works well with the theory of parallel universes.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: darkbake
Are you thinking when you jerk your foot after stepping on a thorn?
Equating reactions to stimuli and thought is quite a reach.

I am researching more on bacteria "cognition" at the moment to see if it truly is all explainable as a reaction. If it was a reaction, they could not make mistakes or defy what is in their best interest. Certainly humans are not just reacting when they are thinking.

Double-post

Sometimes I get the feeling Jesus was just the first guy to get up and leave out of the zendo hall after 2000 and some years I think he had enough of that sh!t hoped on that bull until it made an ass out of itself.

So relative.

The fig newtons can feed humanity the same way calculus etc can in a round about way. All of it is food, food for the eyes, food for the ears, food for the nose, food for touch, and for the tongue obviously and of course food for thought will often leave us starving to death in a full moment of being.