What thinks? Where do we draw the line?

I think we would all agree that we are self-aware as humans. Part of this is the ability to see time flow around us, we learn from our mistakes through memory, we make choices, weighing the potential future outcomes. Is this ability found in other animals (I thinks so)? What about plants (I have no idea)? What about bacteria or cells? What about things smaller than cells? Is our DNA modified by something that is self-aware while we are alive?

Animals learn from their mistakes. They are able to make choices (even something as simple as running towards food because they calculate it is more advantageous than not). I say they have this ability to make choices. Plants have the ability to make choices, too, by turning their leaves in the direction of sunlight. They calculate where it is warmest and create a goal, which is to get in this position, and then obtain that goal.

Does a rock learn from its mistakes? No. Does it experience time-flow? It has no idea how to experience time flow, or the rock would start long-term planning. But the rock does "feel" the flow of time through the forces of erosion and other natural laws of physics.

Once something is alive, is that the point that it is able to start making choices and learning from its mistakes? Does this mean a bacteria, or a cell, or even a virus are self-aware?

The scientific consensus is that cells do think.

A microorganism has to adapt to changing environmental conditions in order to survive. Cells could follow one of two basic strategies to address such environmental fluctuations. Successful application of either strategy requires a level of memory and information processing that has not been normally associated with single cells, suggesting that such organisms do in fact have the capacity to 'think'.

Source

This is important, that means they are self-aware. It explains a lot. What isn't explained by science is what the hell is thinking and why are cells thinking, how are they thinking, what is the mechanism behind that? And that is what I am interested in researching more.

It sounds silly to ask whether bacteria can think. However, science has known for more than 100 years that the little guys can indeed think. Experiments in 1883 conducted by Wilhelm Pfeffer showed that bacteria will swim toward good food like chicken soup and away from poisons such as mop disinfectant.

Google

Wow. So bacteria think. They are self-aware. They learn and store that knowledge around them, kind of like writing. Amazing. But what is this mechanism generating this ability to experience time flow? That ability is required to make choices. And it turns out the bacteria do make choices, as experiments show.

I will continue looking into this.

I feel that if self awareness didnt exist possibly life itself wouldn't. I think evolution plays a big role in this. A rock is just a rock it has no life. Every living thing that i know about strives to survive that couldnt happen without self awareness, consider that antibiotics are becoming weaker because the bacteria mutate to survive.

a reply to: Antwonzilla

Thanks, yes that is another good point. Bacteria mutate to be resistant to antibiotics. Is that done through thinking?

darkbake

I've not read through your source or looked further into any of this information yet (I will shortly) But I wanted to take moment to let you know that I have really been appreciating your threads lately.

Thanks for taking the time to write them up..now, off to research a bit more..

Thanks,
blend57

a reply to: darkbake

That is a good question. I myself believe it to be plausible since they become stronger and more resistance against current antibiotics. Its actually something i think the world should take more notice of.

a reply to: darkbake

It's difficult to have conversations when the real meanings of words are ignored in favor of another definition to support an idea, that does not lend itself to the real meaning of the words.

self-a·ware·ness
noun
noun: self-awareness

conscious knowledge of one's own character, feelings, motives, and desires.

Another source.

Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals. It is not to be confused with consciousness in the sense of qualia. While consciousness is a term given to being aware of one’s environment and body and lifestyle, self-awareness is the recognition of that awareness.

I kinda skimmed through this but i found some of the information in here pretty useful to your post science.howstuffworks.com...

a reply to: blend57

Thanks Blend, I am on the trail of something important, and I'll share what I research on the way. It is good to know someone is taking notice of me

a reply to: Antwonzilla

Thanks for the work! I'll check it out.

a reply to: darkbake

The scientific consensus is that cells do think.

Hardly. Your first source doesn't provide much science. Your second is a creationist site, hardly science. For a consensus that doesn't really cut it.

Wow. So bacteria think. They are self-aware.

Are you thinking when you jerk your foot after stepping on a thorn?
Equating reactions to stimuli and thought is quite a reach.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I think the meaning fits perfectly even to a microscopic level.

originally posted by: darkbake
a reply to: Antwonzilla

Thanks, yes that is another good point. Bacteria mutate to be resistant to antibiotics. Is that done through thinking?

Life is life, adapting to an adversity is evolution... existence is suffering it doesn't matter the form that takes so of course to seek ease it adapts and evolves to it's environment from one extreme to the other but that contact with the other extreme changes it so that extreme is no longer an extreme over time, evolution or nature itself is always seeking balance... entropy drives evolution or basically change itself.

Energy animating form is life that's the only difference between the two of matter and energy aside from that casual nexus that combines all of it together at various gaps or distances from infinity to infinity.

In my opinion there was no singular big bang... one major one per galaxy sure... one for the entire universe no way they only seem to start crunching as they lose energy and start drawing back for a repeat of the process as the energy of the others surrounding push it in to help it. Countless black holes gathering it in and plopping it back out ad infinitum in a repeating cycle of different sizes or dimensions like a fractal.

originally posted by: Antwonzilla
a reply to: Blaine91555

I think the meaning fits perfectly even to a microscopic level.

Yes, that is one of the things I meant to convey in the post. I am serious about this, it was not a mistake.

a reply to: Antwonzilla

To be self aware, it must be conscious of it's own existence and mortality.

I don't see how what you are describing has anything to do with self awareness? How does reacting to stimuli to survive equate to self awareness? I'm not seeing it.

When an MD hits my knee with a little rubber hammer it causes a reaction, my knee is not self aware. I think what you are describing is more akin to a reflex, than self awareness.

I don't think they are self aware as we are.

If they were, that would mean that they are trying to kill us on purpose.

Not that they are doing what they are made for.

lol. Something like that.

Bacterium 2020!

a reply to: Blaine91555

Your knee is reacting to a stimulus not something trying to kill it, thus is why i believe that bacteria have to have at least some kind of awareness. Like ive said all living things want to survive, bacteria are a living organism no? Bacteria becoming antibiotic resistant makes me think it's a little more than a stimulus. Im not trying to say they are highly intelligent but they adapt to survive.

a reply to: Antwonzilla

Bacteria becoming antibiotic resistant makes me think it's a little more than a stimulus.

Right. That's evolution. The ones who have natural resistance survive to reproduce. The ones that don't, die.

Avoiding something nasty is a response to stimulus. Avoiding hot things. Avoiding things that hurt. Avoiding things that smell bad.

Well, at least I'm not a creationist Phage... I found this source through Google and it does show an existing experiment. In that experiment, the bacteria is able to make choices based on data it received. That's the point I'm making.

I doubt the bacteria is able to have as complex thought as a human being. The point of this thread is to isolate when something is able to think. Upon further research, it is contested territory.

a reply to: darkbake
Calling a response to stimulus making a choice is a reach.

Is it a choice to move your hand when it's too close to a fire? Do you have to think about it?

a reply to: Blaine91555

That could be a reflex, but it might not be. I'm interested in finding where the line is drawn.