Michael Moore and Bowling for Columbine: BS

Why is it BS and why did I lose respect for him after watching it? OK, I admire the guy for speaking out no doubt, but the part where he compares Canada to the US in terms of crime is laughable.

Here is the truth. Sure, America has over 11,000 homicides a year and Canada only a few hundred, but remember Canada has 1/10 the population. Still, at Canada's rate of homicides (about 500 total in 2003), if the population was the same as the US, that would = about 5000, less than half, which is substantial and he is right to point out this fact. But Moore goes to a small, small town in Canada, interviews some lumberjacks about not locking their doors at night, and says, "see, its safe." Ya, well Canadians in larger centers like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, Winnipeg, etc., would have something else to say. In fact, lets look at the statistics. Canada actually has almost the highest crime rate of all developed countries. In 2003, per 100,000 people, almost 9,000 criminal offences were committed. Of course homicides are relatively low? The highest comes from property crimes (about half of all criminal offences committed).

Is Canada "SAFE" like Moore says? On a given weekend (an incident just happened a few weeks ago in Vancouver), you got East Indian and Spic gangs using machete's to cut up victims at parties. Here is a typical case (one of dozens):

www.nsnews.com...

Why machetes? East Indians are allowed to carry them on their persons because it is part of their religion. I am not sure if their is any legislation to change this, however.

This is a regular thing. What about shootings, here is an example:

www.canada.com...

And the Vancouver Police. HA! Two cops had much evidence against them just over 1 year ago related to taking street kids down to Stanley park and beating them. Their faces were #ed up (headline news). They got off and got a second chance.

www.fathers.ca...

Anybody heard of Robert Picton, the now famous Vancouver serial killer who is in jail and convicted of the murder of many prostitutes from Vancouvers downtown. There was some airtime, even in the US about those missing Prostitutes. Where did they end up? At Picton's pig farm where he was said to have fed them to the pigs. In all, dozens of missing girls are linked to him. Some parts of Toronto are extremely dangerous in terms of stabbings and guns.

www.cbc.ca...

On a given Friday or Sat. night downtown Vancouver, usually later but not necessarily, you might have to stop your car on Granville St., the main strip, to wait for the typical "hockey fight" to end, since it usually spills over onto the street. Then ya got the race crap in Toronto too since it is loaded with blacks and Montreal, outside on Vancouver, has the most organized crime groups. The famous Rock Machine Motor cycle gang in Quebec has been battling with the HA for years, and bloodshed a plenty has resulted.

From stabbings in nightclubs and drive-by-shootings, to the domestic abuse and property crimes, Canada is certainly NOT what Moore makes it out to be.

Having said all that, Canada is a comparatively safe place for the average joe and the best country in the world.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by freudling]

Wow, well let me just say that your language is quite disgusting. Calling them Spic gangs is something to be ashamed of. Secondly there are tons of gangs or groups in Canada just as there are in every country. As a Canadian I am disgusted to see someone come on these boards and post such RedNeck garbage in order to make a point that is already well known. Sure Canada has it's fair share of crim I think most people know that but they way you make it sound with your examples of fighting and blatantly racist depictions of crime in this country is dispicable. If you had a head on your shoulders and knew about Canadian crime in anyway you'd have pointed out that our Native population 2% of the country has 38% representation in our prisons. All in all Canada is the best country to live in but please don't dishonor my country by coming on here and making some redneck rant.

Redneck rant! Free country pal, and unlike you with your name calling, your comments have NO backing. You have no idea who I am in relation to my experience with the criminal element of Canada and you have FAILED to provide a decent rebuttal to the statistics I posted. Disgust this!

Heres a thread you might find interesting

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It deals with Michael Moore's own bodyguard having a illegal weapon to protect him.

Subject:
from: freudling
sent: 21-1-2005 at 03:07 PM
Look you preprogrammed quaker boy, the stats don't lie niether does my experience. My POINT is that Moore is wrong and Canada is not as safe as he depicted. Is Canada safe? I said in my post it was and I also said that Canada is the best country on earth. How is that disrespecting Canada you fool?

Well I can see that you are above the name calling which I of course didn't do I merely stated that what you said was completely idiotic, However I am done with this thread You've done little to help Canada's name as an open minded educated country by ranting like a non-sensical lunatic about something that is common knowledge. quaker boy.?????

Originally posted by CanadianConspirator
Subject:
from: freudling
I said in my post it was and I also said that Canada is the best country on earth. How is that disrespecting Canada you fool?

I'm taking a few liberties here CC, this doesn't reflect on you at all, I want to answer this question.

Originally posted by freudling
[edit on 21-1-2005 by freudling]

That answers your question freudling. You changed your post when you saw that you stepped into it. That last sentance was so different that the rest of your rant as to stink like a skunk in a perfume factory.

Thanks I never even noticed that but it does seem to have been thrown in there. My point here was not to bash him personally but when someone especially from my own country makes a post about my country's crime and uses such specific examples such as Robert Pickton, and then such general examples like fighting in the streets outside of bars in Vancouver it just seems so silly. I agree with his main argument that Canada is not as it is portrayed in bowling for columbine but to rant about how much crime we do have seems just unbeliveable.

Originally posted by freudling
Here is the truth. Sure, America has over 11,000 homicides a year and Canada only a few hundred, but remember Canada has 1/10 the population. Still, at Canada's rate of homicides (about 500 total in 2003), if the population was the same as the US, that would = about 5000, less than half, which is substantial and he is right to point out this fact.

-snip-

In 2003, per 100,000 people, almost 9,000 criminal offences were committed. Of course homicides are relatively low? The highest comes from property crimes (about half of all criminal offences committed).

Even if Canada had the same population as the US that would be about 5,000 homicides compared to the 16,500 homicides in the US in 2003. Three times the amount in the US. Seems like capital punishment isn't even a deterrent to murder in the U.S.

I think its safe to say that most violent crime anywhere in the world occurs mostly in the larger centres...Canada is no exception unfortunately. The example Moore used in his film was just silly. I think you missed the point of the film though...with guns so easy to access in the US, the rate of violent crime including murder will continue to make the streets unsafe and the murder rate extremely high.

As for criminal offences in Canada...pretty sure that number will drop drastically as soon as they de-criminalize possession of small amounts of pot as is proposed!

Originally posted by freudling
Why is it BS and why did I lose respect for him after watching it? OK, I admire the guy for speaking out no doubt, but the part where he compares Canada to the US in terms of crime is laughable.

Here is the truth. Sure, America has over 11,000 homicides a year and Canada only a few hundred, but remember Canada has 1/10 the population. Still, at Canada's rate of homicides (about 500 total in 2003), if the population was the same as the US, that would = about 5000, less than half, which is substantial and he is right to point out this fact. But Moore goes to a small, small town in Canada, interviews some lumberjacks about not locking their doors at night, and says, "see, its safe." Ya, well Canadians in larger centers like Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, Winnipeg, etc., would have something else to say. In fact, lets look at the statistics. Canada actually has almost the highest crime rate of all developed countries. In 2003, per 100,000 people, almost 9,000 criminal offences were committed. Of course homicides are relatively low? The highest comes from property crimes (about half of all criminal offences committed).

Is Canada "SAFE" like Moore says? On a given weekend (an incident just happened a few weeks ago in Vancouver), you got East Indian and Spic gangs using machete's to cut up victims at parties. Here is a typical case (one of dozens):

www.nsnews.com...

Why machetes? East Indians are allowed to carry them on their persons because it is part of their religion. I am not sure if their is any legislation to change this, however.

This is a regular thing. What about shootings, here is an example:

www.canada.com...

And the Vancouver Police. HA! Two cops had much evidence against them just over 1 year ago related to taking street kids down to Stanley park and beating them. Their faces were #ed up (headline news). They got off and got a second chance.

www.fathers.ca...

Anybody heard of Robert Picton, the now famous Vancouver serial killer who is in jail and convicted of the murder of many prostitutes from Vancouvers downtown. There was some airtime, even in the US about those missing Prostitutes. Where did they end up? At Picton's pig farm where he was said to have fed them to the pigs. In all, dozens of missing girls are linked to him. Some parts of Toronto are extremely dangerous in terms of stabbings and guns.

www.cbc.ca...

On a given Friday or Sat. night downtown Vancouver, usually later but not necessarily, you might have to stop your car on Granville St., the main strip, to wait for the typical "hockey fight" to end, since it usually spills over onto the street. Then ya got the race crap in Toronto too since it is loaded with blacks and Montreal, outside on Vancouver, has the most organized crime groups. The famous Rock Machine Motor cycle gang in Quebec has been battling with the HA for years, and bloodshed a plenty has resulted.

From stabbings in nightclubs and drive-by-shootings, to the domestic abuse and property crimes, Canada is certainly NOT what Moore makes it out to be.

Having said all that, Canada is a comparatively safe place for the average joe and the best country in the world.

[edit on 21-1-2005 by freudling]

You need to seek professional help and soon.

Well, to the moderator and Canadian Conspirator, I did NOT add the last part in later, right Canadian Conspirator! You read it and responded to it and you KNOW that that was the post you read with the clause at the end. Compared to the rest of the world, since I have lived in other parts of the world, that commnet stands: Canada is the best country in the world, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't lock your doors. And no, I did not miss the point of the movie. With such a logical blunder as I have pointed out, Moore disappointed me and I am not saying anythinng about 911 since I have not seen it, yet.

As for legalizing pot, it will erase between 60 and 100,000 criminal cases against possession charges.

So, enough skirting the issue: respond to the stats: almost 9000 crimes per 100000 people. Now, go get stats for other countries. What tipped me off was reading a business and marketing book that stated that Canada had one of the highest crime rates of all developed coutries. Also, there was a story in the Vancouver Sun, a series, that detailed the major problem of organized crime in Vancouver and what the VP are going to do about it.

Here is a link to an annual report issued by CSIS, Canada's Central Intelligence on organized crime:

www.cisc.gc.ca...

Here are some abstracts of Indo-Canadian violence incidents:

www.canada.com...

Here is a article that sums up the crime problem in Canada, which make ref to the series ran in the Vancouver Sun:

www.boardoftrade.com...

And another which details the HA and makes ref to the many other articles in the series:

www.canada.com...

The defense rests. And now, don't bother attacking me as a ranting whatever, just respond to the information, no more skirting the issue.


[edit on 22-1-2005 by freudling]

freudling, after your choice of language, your opinion becomes....well...irrelevant.

Stop smoking pot, allow your mind to clear for a while and think about using mature and respectable language in future.

The guy does raise a valid point, Moore is guilty of showing some distortions of what is true to get his point across about America. He did it in f 9/11 with Iraq and he also did it in Bowling For Columbine.

I must say though Moore's message is an important one and we should consider it nonetheless.

No place is crime free and Canada isn't any different from any country in the world.

thanks,
drfunk

Originally posted by freudling
www.nsnews.com...

Why machetes? East Indians are allowed to carry them on their persons because it is part of their religion. I am not sure if their is any legislation to change this, however.

A quote from that link you posted..."The man is described as being Caucasian, age 15 or 16, 1.68 m (5'6"), with a slight build and 75 kg (165 lb.). "

Caucasian means White not East Indian.

There is no law protecting anyone so they can carry a sword.
"why machetes?" 'cause they are easier for kids to get than guns.

Since you brought up CISC hers what they have to say about the gangs in Vancouver.I don't live in Vancouver, the place most used in your examples.
I only lock the door when I go to bed.
Shortly after the columbine shootings there was a school shooting in Tabor, Alberta.Tabor is maybe a 2 hour drive from where I live.

Did Moore use a bad example? I guess that's just opinion.

Not sure why you posted a link to a Canadian Intelligence report dated 1998 when I posted one dated 2004. Go read highlights of that report and then come back and talk to me about indo-Canadian gangs. And why am I being pushed into some kind of discriminatory comments: my original statments were that Moore misrepresented Canada and that it is much more infested with crime than he led on. The Indo-Canadian gangs have existed for years and continue to be a problem. The point is crime, and it is not just the Indo-Canadian gangs, but they are certainly major players. Might we list others: Caucasians of course, the HA, asians, rival biker gangs like the Rock Machine from Quebec, and the Italians.

And my language is appropriate, not sure why I am being attacked. And I was also called a "ranting redneck" so others are guilty of name calling. Get to the point: Canada is NOT a safe place like Moore contends. Care to argue that some more? because you guys are all over the place.

Here is one of dozens of machete attacks from Asians if you must, just last week:

www.vancouvertelevision.com.../news/stories/2005/01/news-20050110-02.htm

Another machete attack at Christmas on a star football player:

www.vancouvertelevision.com.../news/stories/2005/01/news-20050104-05.htm

Youth stabbed a few weeks ago:

www.vancouvertelevision.com.../news/stories/2005/01/news-20050101-05.htm

Enjoying a movie and then!:

www.vancouvertelevision.com.../news/stories/2005/01/news-20050106-07.htm

Violence and, hey, a machete attack in Toronto a few weeks ago (scroll down to Toronto heading):

www.fotf.ca...

Article on machetes and many cases cited in and around Vancouver:

www.burnabynow.com...

Native women Murdered in Van and surrounding area, many of them:

www.missingnativewomen.ca...

Drug Dealer shot dead in Nightclub:

www.cybersleuths.com...

Here is a listing of crimes for this month reported on the RCMP's Media Relations Site:

www.rcmp-bcmedia.ca...

As an aside but related, I saw a friend of mine recently only to notice he was sporting a huge, disgusting scar on his neck (about 4-5" long and qutie wide). Guess what! He was sliced with a machete at a party by Indonesians.

You dont seem to get the point do you?
Dude, we all know canada is full of faries and elves riding a unicorn around a daisy flower.

Not from the same year but the difference is SOOOOOOOOO different as to not matter.

US murder stats, 6.8/100,000 1997 stats

edition.cnn.com...

Canadian murder stats, 1.73/100,000 2003 stats

canadaonline.about.com...

We can only hope things have gotten better below the border in the last 8 years.

Intrepid

The only thing that proves are yall are worse shots than we are

J/K Bro

I seldom lock my door unless I am going to bed either, I suspect it has more to do with the size of the area you live in than the country

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Amuk]

Actually ,Moore was in Toronto when he went door to door seeing if they locked them. Not some small Canadian town.

Originally posted by sensfan
Actually ,Moore was in Toronto when he went door to door seeing if they locked them. Not some small Canadian town.

I don't lock mine

Do you lock yours?

It would depend on the Neighborhood too. I bet there are places in Toronto they lock their doors EVERY day. I haven't been there so I don't know but its a pretty safe guess

So much of his stuff is staged it just makes it hard for me to believe ANYTHING he says.

Him and Bush are a lot alike in that area



[edit on 22-1-2005 by Amuk]

Originally posted by Amuk

Originally posted by sensfan
Actually ,Moore was in Toronto when he went door to door seeing if they locked them. Not some small Canadian town.

I dont lock mine

Do you lock yours?

It would depend on the Neighboorhood too. I bet there are places in Toronto they lock their doors EVERY day. I havent been there so I dont know but its a pretty safe guess

So much of his stuff is staged it just makes it hard for me to believe ANYTHING he says.

Him and Bush are a lot alike in that area

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Amuk]

Its funny I live on the 24floor, I only seem to care about my door when im home. And not all the time, I have a lock that whe the door is closed its locked, so i open the door and lock the deadbolt so the door will not shut, I will forget about it for days.

I also have a door man, so anyone that dont live here isnt getting in.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by SpittinCobra]