Holy Hillary!

Originally posted by LadyV
For starters, re read what I said....I said they are uneducated in politics....

You have limited your accusation to one field, but you have made it. IMHO, the fair and honest way to indict them was to say that you believe they are foolish for not choosing based on the issues. I'm not sure it's fair to imply that citizens should vote according to only the criteria you value.

these people have a chosen "career", it's planned and calculated...they don't do it for the love of people.

This changes nothing. The president has the job of improving and upholding the USA. He is the leader of countless millions. If a person believes in God then that person may also believe that God would want to communicate with -any- president in order to guide the millions of people under the president. I don't believe that myself, but I don't know everything, so I'm not going to tell people how they can and can't choose their candidate.
In a democracy, you really have to entertain a slight notion that you could be wrong, because if you were right and the majority was wrong it would often only be logical to attempt to impose your will on the majority somehow, thereby destroying democracy.

I also think your wrong about some of your other thoughts...

There should probably be a forum on BTS called "I think Vagabond is wrong". It would be insanely popular I'm sure, and I'd read it all the time just to keep my narcisism in check.

I know too many people that honestly believe god has spoken to Bush....these same people, if anyone else were to tell them god talks to them, would dismiss them as nuts!

I actually entertained this possibility in a way in my previous post. I said

The outdated perception of devine right is still alive in cultural memory, in religion, and in fiction ... So long as this exists, people will still base their votes on personality, religion, etc. ... It's a cultural weakness which results in ignorance of the issues in some cases.

I've emphasized the "some cases" to be fair, since I've been beating the drum about not being overly biased or implying unjustified absolutes.

I'm not even really trying to defend the practice. I actually agree with you that it's probably not doing anything positive for our country and that it may be allowing some negative things to go unchecked. I just feel that it's necessary to defend people's right to believe what they see fit and to base decisions on their beliefs. I may not agree with what these people have to say, but I'd fight to the death for their right to say it. (I'm not attributing this quote to anyone because I'm not really sure if it was Plato or Socrates, although I'm 90% sure it was one of the two. Sorry, I'm a genius not an encyclopedia.)

There is a somewhat exagerated arguement to be made that if you aren't willing to consider God then you have no source of absolute values and you can't say with any finality that freedom is good. This, theoretically (read: if you ignore the fact that whatever is percieved and practiced becomes reality) would mean that people had no real grounds to vote based on their desire for personal freedom. It could then be argued that to vote against a fascist who would "be good for the country" would make one uneducated in politics. My point is that questionable moral values of some kinds obviously are applied to voting decisions and this is seen as acceptable, and it would be somewhat unfair to reverse that view in the specific case of God just because belief in God is not a value we share with everyone.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by djohnsto77


First of all, I find Hillary's religious statements to be novel, therefore a bit suspect whereas Bush has been a born-again Christian for 18 years;

As novel as Bush claiming God spoke to him and approved of his actions?

however I'm willing to believe it is genuine if she carries through with it if she is elected.

Why should she be? Bush has been ingenuine about it for four years and counting.

I find it hypocritical when liberals attack Bush for being religious but when Hillary is out proclaiming God and religion, it's perfectly fine.

And you did not hear me defending her statements. I do not think that religon and state should be mixed under ANY circumstances. I think ALL politicians should keep thier religous views and opinions to themselves.

What you read from my statement was the disgust at neocons for bashing someone who is doing EXACTLY what thier beloved leader is doing

Originally posted by LadyV
I for one, do not choose my leaders because they mention Jesus, or any god....get real! Politics is a "career" not a calling...I think people that vote this way are ridiculous, and not very educated in the political field!

Politics isn't a calling? Tell that to Abe Lincoln who held the Union together. He stood strong and if there was someone else in charge.....the war might have turned out differently.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
And you did not hear me defending her statements. I do not think that religon and state should be mixed under ANY circumstances. I think ALL politicians should keep thier religous views and opinions to themselves.

I know you weren't defending these statements, but others are. It seems when liberals talk about God other liberals seem to give a nod and a wink like "Oh, he/she's just doing that to trick the bible-thumping hillbillies in the south, we know he/she doesn't really mean it" but they go crazy and start using words like theocracy when someone like Bush talks about God.

Hilliary has simply learned where America is right now, and like all good politicians she has adapted. Some people are true believers, and some are pragmatist. Power is the constant between them, it is more powerful than need for sex, food, shelter, and whatever else you can dream up. "It not about right and not wrong, its about Power", Joss Weadon writer and producer of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Not a credible source, but the idea is sound. For those who fear that Hiliary will try nationalized medicine, she has buried that idea forever. Getting your you know what kick in the 94 midterm election will do that. One more thing, she won't be president. Conservative talk radio and the internet will see to that. SO, BE OF GOOD CHEER.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by Kuehn06]

Anyway, I'm voting only indepenence and third parties. And hello, both the Clintons and the Bushes, and their lillies of daughters have done the sign of the devil in front of the press. Why would anyone actually believe their "Christinans" or any main religion for that matter is beyond me. They obviously want chruch and state, and John Locke to go down the toliet, for that scarey NWO thing. *shivers with disgust*
Don't be naive, DON'T VOTE HILARY, b/c all she does is kiss other rich peoples a**es!
I DON'T CARE WHAT PARTY YOU ARE, WHAT RELIGION, EDUCATION, ETC. DO NOT VOTE HILARY OR THE TWO MAIN PARTIES OR WE LOSE THE SEPERATION OF CHRUCH AND STATE. BECAUSE CHURCH DOES NOT EQUAL GOD. BECAUSE GOD IS WELL BEYOND THAT!

Originally posted by djohnsto77


I know you weren't defending these statements, but others are. It seems when liberals talk about God other liberals seem to give a nod and a wink like "Oh, he/she's just doing that to trick the bible-thumping hillbillies in the south, we know he/she doesn't really mean it" but they go crazy and start using words like theocracy when someone like Bush talks about God.

I've got some news for ya. The ignorance embraced on this subject is being embraced by BOTH sides. BOTH are guilty of hypocracy when it comes to religon in politics. The Conservatives are guilty of attempting to rule through theocracy disguised as democracy, and the Dems are guilty of turning to religon as a crutch to gain support from the bible belt when the need arises.

If I were Hillary I'd be careful how I talk about God. That God she speaks of may just strike her down for blasphemy.
To have he come out as an evangelical simply boggles the mind.

What's she gonna say about aortion now, and a woman's right to choose? Gay rights? More likely, she will just tell whatever group whatever they want to hear. And some would vote for her

Another thing, if God has forgiven her, doesn't she have to forgive her dear husband? They seems kinda cold to each other at the Inauguration, like she couldn't stand to be in the same city with him.

BTW, does she claim anywhere that she is born again recently?

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
If I were Hillary I'd be careful how I talk about God. That God she speaks of may just strike her down for blasphemy.

Yeah right! I see supposedly religious people doing what they aren't supposed to all the time...I haven't seen any lightening bolts shoot down and strike any of them dead yet

I'd take Hillary over Jeb Bush, or anyone else in the Republican Party any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
As I get from many conservatives all the time that try to defend Bush & Co. quotes from all over the place, you have to look at the context of who Hillary is speaking to, and where she is speaking, keeping in mind that she is a politician just the same as anyone else in that sphere, and they are all looking for advancement, or at least re-election.
People are so ignorant sometimes, it amazes even me.

Why does Hilary need to run in 08?

She already ran the country from 92 to 00.

Originally posted by TalibanKillah
I'd take Hillary over Jeb Bush, or anyone else in the Republican Party any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

I agree...and if she runs, I think she's going to surprise many people by winning or at least it being extremely close. OMG..I just made a prediction...LOL

My prediction for what it's worth is Cheney will step down after about 2 years, Condi will become Vice President and run in 2008 with Hillary as the Democratic nominee.

If this happens Condi will prevail.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
If I were Hillary I'd be careful how I talk about God. That God she speaks of may just strike her down for blasphemy.

Thats funny. God hasnt smited Bush for HIS blasphemy, so why would God treat Hillary any different?

Something everyone on this thread must have forgotten is that Bill and Hillary DID go to church every sunday. They DID attend mass. This is not some recent turn of events. People are acting like its such a big deal that Hillary is turning to God now. The women has been going to church for a LONG TIME NOW. I dont agree with mixing her religous beliefs with politics, but for god sakes people, quit acting like Bush is the only president to ever say amen!

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
If I were Hillary I'd be careful how I talk about God. That God she speaks of may just strike her down for blasphemy.

Thats funny. God hasnt smited Bush for HIS blasphemy, so why would God treat Hillary any different?

Something everyone on this thread must have forgotten is that Bill and Hillary DID go to church every sunday. They DID attend mass.

My remark was kinda a joke. Just like Hillary being religious is kinda a joke.

I don't think they EVER attended Mass, I believe only Catholics perform that rite.
If memory serves, Bill and Chelsea were seen attending more than she.
I also seem to remember a Christmas tree the Clinton family put up with obscene ornaments---in the WH. So much for being religious *sneers*

BTW, this whole religion and polticis thing is geting out of control.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
quit acting like Bush is the only president to ever say amen!

Some people are actually acting like dubya is a little demi god....anything he does is fine, but don't let anyone do it, or use his tactics actions speak louder than words. You can bring a bum in off the street and tell him a hundred times a day you love him, but if you keep him dirty, feed him bread and water...chances are you don't!

Hilary is a waste of space...yes...she's a smart person...but shes been my senator now for a few years...and shes done next to nothing...

Originally posted by LadyV

Some people are actually acting like dubya is a little demi god....

I know. It really makes you wonder who his supporters really do worship? Soon, all his supporters will be refered to as his followers, or deciples. Oh, I just thought of what Bush will call his religon: Deciples of Bush for a better world!


DTOM says:

BTW, this whole religion and polticis thing is geting out of control.

I agree 100% It is the very reason Religon should stay OUT of our politics. We are running a country, not a church. I see no confessionals at the Whitehouse, and further more, there is no conscience at the Whitehouse to preclude the use of a confessional for admitting sin.

[edit on 1/23/05 by Kidfinger]

The Clintons oppose Christianity--that's the important thing. She can act "religious" but it means nothing, as she's only appealing to voters of all religions in a non-denominational way.
The morality of American society went lower than ever before under the czarist regime of the Clintons, and if the Clintons have control of the country for another four years, it will truly be the end.


edit: P.S. Those of you who are labelling both Clinton and Bush as hypocrites are most likely nonreligious yourself, in which case you'd do better to either:

1. Shut your mouth.
2. Go in the corner and pray.
3. Just go to hell, as you're going there anyway.

As opposed to blathering on your distorted, biased opinions on religion, which is truly an alien subject for you. It's no surprise that you're so confused.

[edit on 1/23/2005 by southern_cross3]

Originally posted by southern_cross3
The Clintons oppose Christianity--

Link and proof please! Back it up!

Those of you who are labelling both Clinton and Bush as hypocrites are most likely nonreligious yourself, in which case you'd do better to either:

1. Shut your mouth.
2. Go in the corner and pray.
3. Just go to hell, as you're going there anyway.

And you are? Do you drink, smoke, look at porn, gamble, look at woman, this list could go on and on...I also believe telling people to go to hell here at ATS could earn you a warning.....it's also not very Christian like from what I understand...perhaps you should go sit in a corner and pray for tolerance and patience!



[edit on 1/23/2005 by LadyV]