The Production of Soma.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

No, sorry, I am clearly not explaining myself clearly.

Here...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

You clipped the "= cucumber" from the definition.

This other definition "Hul" (uQQ) I suggested because it may explain why Thompson had such difficulty, because the sounds produced by both signs denote different meanings, hence why he put them together and came up with the "stinking cucumber".

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

It was just a suggestion.

I don't think that Dougherty can be blamed, as a translator in 6th century BC cuneiform he is not the best authority on early texts such as the Nippur, his opinion however seems to be much more influencial, particularly amongst those fighting the "Drug War", there is a distinct pattern to the types of publications and sites that promote the unsupported notion of opium use originating in Mesopotamia. I am at a loss as to why...and suspect it is just general ignorance combined with poor attention to detail. Just yet another conspiracy of stupidity I presume.

a reply to: Anaana

Too right i clipped the cucumber suggestion from the definition of joyful because it's stupid, i edited my last post after having a look at were the confusion between Hul and Ukus arose and it's here;



So it people want to go around saying it wasn't joy that was indicated through the Hul sign but rather cucumber then that's up to them, a boat full of joyful cucumbers, they can even see themselves as evil and stinking cucumbers i don't care, very funny really and an interesting exercise...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
Too right i clipped the cucumber suggestion from the definition of joyful because it's stupid,

I can understand why it might seem stupid, but it represents the process that I have been attempting to demonstrate, and it is why it is in grey type, because it has been suggested as a plant identification, that is what the discussion that I posted earlier was referring to. No one has contested that Hul has a meaning of Joy, I was merely pointing out that the entry explains also that some have interpreted it to be cucumber.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
i edited my last post after having a look at were the confusion between Hul and Ukus arose and it's here;

There you go, well done!

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
So it people want to go around saying it wasn't joy that was indicated through the Hul sign but rather cucumber then that's up to them, a boat full of joyful cucumbers, they can even see themselves as evil and stinking cucumbers i don't care, very funny really and an interesting exercise...

No one is contesting that Hul can mean Joy, it is the cucumber that is contested. Opium isn't even part of the discussion because there is no basis on which to discuss it and therefore why cucumber is included, but in grey text, and opium is not.

What does Kramer translate the Hul Gil text you have identified as?

a reply to: Anaana

They certainly did and they were certainly wrong so the Order of the Stinking Cucumber should disband, Opium was part of the discussion before they came along as that was the inference previously derived from the signs when it was considered a reed like plant relating to joy.


Kramer's work on the tablet doesn't seem to be readily available online, i think it possible if not probable that he would have arrived at a different identification given how much is open to interpretation, so it would be a case of looking at his methodology and considering it's merits and ultimately drawing one's own conclusion.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
They certainly did and they were certainly wrong so the Order of the Stinking Cucumber should disband, Opium was part of the discussion before they came along as that was the inference previously derived from the signs when it was considered a reed like plant relating to joy.

I realise that you are having difficulty grasping the process involved in translating ancient and archaic texts, and the constant need for revision based upon new discoveries and new technology. Thompson made a valiant effort, all things considered, and much progress was made as a consequence of his efforts. Yes he was wrong about "Hul Gil" being either a cucumber or opium, but he was correct in other translations, and his very detailed notes of his process have enabled translators since to revise his errors.

From Krikorian's paper...

I have sought the advice of Dr. Erica Reiner, Assyriologist and philo- logist, of the Oriental Institute, the University of Chicago, who is also on the editorial board of the CAD, in an attempt to clarify, substan- tiate, and extend my interpretations. The following excerpts are from a letter she sent in response to my specific queries:
No word either in Akkadian or Sumerian has definitely been iden- tified as opium poppy. ..As for the Sumerogram HUL-GIL meaning "joy plant," I have to say that this is completely erroneous. Indeed, the first sign is UKUS "cucumber." In the lexical lists of the Babylonians, many varieties of this UKUS are listed and we really have no idea which variety is which. Some of these appear in HAR-ra = hubullu Tablet XVII, lines 360-377, which are now published in Materials for the Sumerian Lexicon X,46 Tablet XVII is the tablet that is devoted to herbs and vegetables. The Cucurbitaceae also are listed in Hh XXIV with contains comestibles.... [here she gives several translations of ukus "varieties" such as "finger," "summer cucumber," "winter cucumber," "ripe," "unripe,,, "sour," "sweet," "brilliant," "ox testicle (or spotted) cucumber"]. As to the ti.gi.lum and li.li.gi varieties, we have no idea what these words mean. Your reference from Thompson JJUL-GIL or UKU?-RIM, and your reference from Lutz47 HUL-HAB, are all different transliterations of the same signs and the second sign indeed means "stinking." The (PA)PA-PA reading cited by Thompson in his Assyrian Herbal48 and Dictionary of Assyrian Botany49 is now obsolete, and thus has nothing to do with Papaver. The correct reading is found in the CAD50 s.v. artu, and s.v. araru A, namely rebus writing for arari'. I do not see what the NAM-TIL-LA plant (cited by Thompson)5 which is not UKUS, i.e. Cucurhitaceae ... has to do with either cucumbers or the opium poppy. As to the irdn in the CAD which you quote, we have listed Haupt and Meissner in parentheses, i.e. as unaccepted or unwarranted."

Were the Opium Poppy and Opium Known in the Ancient near East? Author(s): Abraham D. Krikorian Source: Journal of the History of Biology, Vol. 8, No. 1 (Spring, 1975), pp. 95-114

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
...so it would be a case of looking at his methodology and considering it's merits ...

And perhaps concentrate on developing your own, despite you often commenting that there is no discussion of these subjects in "academia", there seems to be, to me, quite vigorous debates going on, but to gain a fuller perspective you need to hit the books, the internet just doesn't cut it. Outside of ATS that is, here it is fine if all you want is to appeal to the lowest common denominator by telling people crap that they want to hear, if that's all you want out of it, then you're doing just fine.

a reply to: Anaana

He wasn't wrong about Hul Gil being a cucumber or the Opium Poppy because that wasn't the case he made, as your authority asserts he made the case for Ukus-Rim or arari, his case can be read here from Page 223 onward, it's not like he didn't know what an Ukus was as he covered the cucumber varieties on page 83 also including those stated in your quote, didn't it occur to you to read what he actually wrote...?

Now the intrusion of this word samUKUS-TI-GIL-LA, colocynth, between samUKUS-RIM (= i?71'[,) and samara'l'u is obviously due to the fact that samUKUS-RIill and samUIWS-TI-GIL-LA both begin with the sign UKUS, which will presently be seen to represent the cucumber-like fruit of both poppy and colocynth.

I haven't once suggested there is no discussion of these subjects in Academia never mind often, obviously there is a great deal, i have suggested the evidence from the iconography gets overlooked, the rest of it evil cucumber syndrome...

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
...didn't it occur to you to read what he actually wrote...?

Yes I did

That, and the other 41 suggestions he made for opium which have all been subsequently corrected or amended, or remain in dispute.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
I haven't once suggested there is no discussion of these subjects in Academia never mind often, obviously there is a great deal, i have suggested the evidence from the iconography gets overlooked, the rest of it evil cucumber syndrome...

Have you not, I must be picking that up from one of your other threads, but even so, given the high volume of books available which do discuss the iconography, from a variety of angles, I would still have to disagree.

So to summarise what has been established so far.

Terry and Pellens (pp. 54-5 5) did, however, take the trouble to enlist the aid of the late Professor Raymond P. Dougherty (1877-1933) who was then in charge of the Babylonian Collection at Yale University, in pursuing the matter.
We are informed that the Sumerians must have known opium as they had an ideogram HUL' GIL which signified this drug. In the medical tablets, above referred to, translated by Thompson, HUL GIL occurs repeatedly and we are informed by Professor Dougherty that the Assyrians borrowed many ideograms from the Sumerians and used them interchangeably with their own words.14

They go on to quote from a letter received from Professor Dougherty.
I should say that the basic meaning of the sign HUL is 'joy,' 'rejoicing.' GIL as a single ideogram represented a number of plants, but its meaning in the ideogram for "opium" is difficult to deter- mine with exactness. It may be suggested in a very tentative way that the Sumerians in their system of pictographic writing endeavored to depict the power of opium to produce a sense of delight or satisfaction. 15

They add: "Professor Dougherty says that the ideogram HULGIL cannot be definitely dated, but that it probably goes to the fourth millennium. B.C."1

R P Dougherty suggested that Hul-Gil should be translated as Joy Plant, and interpreted as opium. There appears, as we have demonstrated, to be no support, then or now, for this assumption.

You suggest that the Nippur tablet has the ideograms "Hul" and "Gil" (or possibly GI) and believe you have identified those on the tablet which was not translated until 1953-4 by Samuel Kramer and Martin Levy but have not actually consulted that translation. Your points appear entirely moot until that has been established or until you translate a more fuller section of that particular prescription to show your interpretation in context.

a reply to: Anaana


R P Dougherty suggested Hul Gil as a reed like plant associated with Joy, the opium poppy, there isn't actually any criticism of that because he never published a paper on the subject, the confusion arises when it is assumed that Thompson's identification within the Assyrian tablets follows the same basis, clearly it doesn't.

If it was Terry and Pellens that assumed Hul Gil could become Ukus-Rim in the Assyrian tablets they were certainly wrong, so the situation arises were the likes of Abraham D. Krikorian go along to the likes of Dr. Erica Reiner and ask what's all this about this here Hul Gil in the Assyrian tablets and the identification turns out to be a variety of cucumber such that the whole case is dismissed without taking into account the Nippur tablet.

It's very odd though that you have the flimsiest association between Hul and Ukus based on scribal error, that could have played a part in the confusion, that joy and cucumbers amounted to the same thing, you cannot assume though that there is no support for what Dougherty suggested, only that it does not correlate to Thompson's proposals, there is a certain Brownstein, a biologist, that numerous papers cite in accepting Sumerian usage of Opium based solely on the Hul Gil identification, his paper here, he considers that there is general agreement on Sumerian cultivation of the Opium poppy.

Kramer's translation does need to be looked at if at all possible to obtain a copy of his working translation, but from were his translation is generally considered such as here i wouldn't have great expectations of it given some of his identifications are along the lines of Star Plant and Moon Plant and it is stated some plants could not be identified, a more telling line of research might lie in sourcing the ideogram Hul Gil in commercial transaction tablets which tend to be the most numerous.

Is Rasa and Soma the same thing or are the two being confused. Rasayana is the art of preparing rasas.

Arka looked at the powerful Bhima and replied, "I think this prince would be best served by us if we let him partake of our rasa." Vasuki agreed. Bringing Bhima back to his palace, he arranged for pots of the ambrosial rasa to be brought for him. This drink was distilled from celestial herbs and by drinking even one pot a man would become permanently endowed with the vigor and strength of a thousand elephants. The Nagas placed a number of pots in front of Bhima and invited him to drink. Bhima sat facing the east and, as he always did before eating or drinking, offered prayers to the Lord. He then lifted one of the large pots of rasa and quaffed it down in one gulp. The Nagas watched in amazement as Bhima drank eight pots of the divine elixir, each in a single draft. Even the most powerful among them would not have been capable of such a feat. After Bhima had satisfied himself with the rasa, he again felt drowsy. Vasuki offered him a celestial bed and the prince lay down. He remained in deep sleep for eight days as his body assimilated the rasa. On the ninth day he awoke, feeling strong beyond measure. The Nagas told him that the rasa had given him the strength of ten thousand elephants

a reply to: zinc12

Looks like a later tradition based upon the earlier, the eight fold symbolism involved is interesting.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: zinc12

Looks like a later tradition based upon the earlier, the eight fold symbolism involved is interesting.

The eight fold tradition is the eight rays of the wheel of dharma pouring out of its central ninth hub.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
I recently came across the Indus Valley seal seen below which allows one to make all sorts of very intriguing connections as in my opinion this is quite unique in showing the production of Soma in that culture, and there are direct correlations between this iconography and that of early Mesopotamian Jemdet Nasr period seals which show the cultivation and extraction of Opium to produce a sacred drink that i looked at in Anunnaki and the Cultivation of Opium

Combined in close society sit the seven priests, the brother-hood, Filling the station of the One. He gives us kinship with the Gods, and with the Sun unites our eye: The Sage's offspring hath appeared. The Sun with his dear eye beholds that quarter of the heavens which priests Have placed within the sacred cell.

I shall explain why, but it became apparent through reading the 114 Soma Pavamana Hymns of the Rig-Veda which i shall quote from that the connection to the seven sages as founders of civilization and sacred writing with Soma was a very direct one, that the Rishi families which had directed this controlled the cultivation of Opium, that in the Mesopotamian tradition this had been the basis for other worldly contact.

Enkindled, Pavamana, Lord, sends forth his light on, every side In friendly show, the bellowing Bull. He, Pavamana, Self-produced, speeds onward sharpening his horns: He glitters through the firmament. Brilliant like wealth, adorable, with splendour Pavamana shines, The golden, the Celestial Doors are lifted with their frames on high.

It can be seen in the above text and seal that the Bull of Heaven, Taurus, was the direct translation of the power of Soma into the Heavens, it's body the Pavamana, this was understood as directed through a stream of Soma which the seated figure can be seen to release from a jar, perhaps also in the form of fishes, which would explain why streams and fishes are often seen in conjunction with the bull in Indus valley representation and Elamite, but also one notes behind the figure a walking bird on a low table or seat, as is the case in the first seal too, and that association directly relates to the tradition of the seated woman on Jemdet Nasr seals, as it is Ka-ka the bird beneath the Orion constellation, a bird that rode high in joy, were the Sumerian term for the Opium plant was Hul-Gil, plant of joy, see also The Sumerian Orion Tradition and The Oldest representation of Orion

Servant, as you took your seat on the lofty dais, Ninšubur, as you took your seat, as you took your seat on the dais like Father Enlil, as you took your seat like Enlil and Ninlil, (you said ) "I, like my mother, I, Ka-ka, will ride high in joy like my mother! I, Ninšubur I, Ka-ka, will ride high in joy like my mother."

O Soma, these Seven Rivers flow, as being thine, to give command the Seven Sisters with their hymns made melody round thee the Sage

Again the plaque above it can be seen that the seated woman with pony tail has replaced that of the horned male figure in the previous example, that the two are closely connected, the one in the production of Soma and likely the Male figure in it's translation into the bull of Heaven, in connection with the double fig tree representing Gemini as the gateway into the after-life.

The numerology involved with the production of Soma in the hymns is that of ten slender maidens or fingers which also relates to the then subdivision of the ecliptic plane into ten demarcations and the seven streams of Soma or sages or maidens which relates to the bodies of the ecliptic plane or the Pleiades and/or Ursa Major, the seven spiritual qualities of it's essence, these seven born in Scorpio and translated into the Bull of Heaven.

The ten swift fingers deck thee forth, seven ministers impel thee on: The sages have rejoiced in thee. Great Son great Strengtheners of Law. Urged by the seven devotions he hath stirred the guileless rivers which Have magnified the Single Eye.

It was the case that Soma was the very personification of the Sage and that the Priests represented his seven aspects;

The Ṛṣis came to him, seven holy singers, when in the bowls he settled as Invoker. In thy mysterious place, O Pavamana Soma, are all the Gods, the Thrice-Eleven. The Sage, Celestial, liberal, raining bounties, pours as he flows the Genuine for the Truthful. Light-winner, Ṛṣi-mindcd, Ṛṣi-maker, hymned in a thousand hymns, Leader of sages

One can realize the importance then of the role of Ninshubur in Mesopotamia with regards to the production of Soma, how that represented the role of Divine intermediary between the three levels of being, represented perhaps by the three belt stars of Orion, and her Indus valley equivalent, but it is also obviously the case without any ongoing tradition of Soma then the tradition of the seven sages became pointless, and the cult does seem to have been suppressed after the Jemdet Nasr period, despite scribes claiming descent from the first seven Apkallu.

Where is the secret shrine of heaven, where are those waters young and fresh. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake. Make me immortal in that realm where they move even as they list, In the third sphere of inmost heaven where lucid worlds are full of light. Flow, Indu, flow for Indra's sake.

The same situation prevailed in India were the noble clans claimed descent from the Rishi sages that wrote the Rig-Vda as well as their daughters the Rshikäs, but the spirit of the Rig-Veda is very different to what Indian religion became following the ascetic period that brought such miseries as Buddhism and the horrors of spiritual practise in contrast to the earlier traditions of joy and aquisition of worldy power and wealth through Soma production.

Pour thou upon us thousandfold possessions, both of kine and steeds, Exceeding glorious, much-desired. By the Seven Ṛṣis’ holy songs. 18 Drive ye that Tawny Courser, O ye pressers, on his way to war, Swift Steed who carries off the spoil.
]

For a second part having looked here at the cosmological significance i'll look at the textual evidence of Soma production to help clarify that it was indeed Opiate based, as the current consensus considers Cannabis...

Excellent Pavamana, make the lights shine brightly out for us. Speed us to mental power and skill. He, beautified by pious men, and coming from their hands adorned, Flows through the fleecy straining-cloth. May Soma pour all treasures of the heavens, the earth, the firmament Upon the liberal worshipper.

I don't know. Don't most anthropologists think it was some kind of hallucinogen, such as psychadelic mushrooms, based on the effects? Such substances have been used for millennia across the world for spiritual or shamanic rites. The main reason being that they produce a more radical other dimensional experience than most drugs, including opium.

originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: Kantzveldt
I can recall reading the correspondence between Robert Graves and R Gordon Wasson in the book 'Between Moon and Moon' and they were following the idea that Soma was in fact a mushroom. Graves even suggesting that this might be why the cow is revered in India as the now extinct fungi grew on the cow pats.
I just thought I'd throw that in and ask if you have considered the use of mushrooms as another source for Soma.

S+F

Yes, I always thought that a hallucinogen made the most sense. Most experienced people would probably agree due to the effects of mushrooms versus opiates.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: midicon

The relationship of the bull and cows to the Soma was that it was effused in milk, there were probably also sexual connotations to the streams of Soma as related to the bull, Soma being seen as the essence of life, have a read of the 114 hymns related to it's production and you won't find any mention of mushrooms or dung.

a reply to: Aliensun

Well yes i suppose, from my perspective i generally am trying to identify the elements of the iconography and symbolism in the artwork and then relate what i see to what was written and what is known.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

They were accused of teaching all manner of wondrous things, but not to the Hebrews which is likely their problem...

Did you know that pyschedelic mushrooms often grow in cow poop? That's another hypothesis for the relationship between soma, cows, and the sacredness of cows in Vedic society.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

It's very odd though that you have the flimsiest association between Hul and Ukus based on scribal error, that could have played a part in the confusion, that joy and cucumbers amounted to the same thing,

In the pre dildo era ?
I can see joy and cucumber being cogent