Did Chinese Civilization Come From Ancient Egypt?

a reply to: pheonix358

You try bringing hundreds of thousands people across the desert with all those equipment's and poor technology. It is much easier to do it the other way around. The Persians have been using Chariots since. If anything its the other way around. Chinese empire originating in Egypt is just too far.
If anything. There are too much factions blocking Chinese race from even getting to China.

en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Spider879

Northern Africans is a mix of Semitic and sub-saharan Africans, Sumerians ( known as black-head ) were likely from India.
Trading route stretching from Ancient egypt ( and its gigantic fields ) to China..

Its not that hard to see when things progressed, when did China enforce cultural laws?

Now remember that it were the Sumerian scribes that in records referred to the locals as black headed people. Chines scribes did the same anciently when referring to the masses.

So you can read all that from cuneiform?

You must be a genius ? or lying?

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: Spider879
Perhaps an interesting topic if not covered already, would be the spread of bronze technology and the horse driven chariots , it is clear the Chariot was introduced into the Nile valley by Hyksos invaders and quickly adopted by them, they may even had the same effect on the ppl west of them, see Saharan rock paintings, did the ancient Shang independently developed these technologies or was it through diffusion or direct influence as suggested by Sun Weidong .

Try
Moorey, Peter Roger Stuart. "The emergence of the light, horse‐drawn chariot in the Near‐East c. 2000–1500 BC." World Archaeology 18.2 (1986): 196-215.

and
Piggott, Stuart. Wagon, chariot and carriage: Symbol and status in the history of transport. London: Thames and Hudson, 1992.

and
Kuznetsov, P. F. "The emergence of Bronze Age chariots in eastern Europe." antiquity 80.309 (2006): 638-645.
(this one's available at Academia.edu)

I'm sure there's others out there.

The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all

It's the other way around... as they adopted the culture of Egypt, they identified Set with one of their gods. But they didn't adopt Set as a new god.

the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

I think this may have been an alliance of convenience - Kush never liked being part of Egypt. Egypt wanted their gold and kept reconquering them every time a strong militaristic pharaoh ascended to the throne.

Well most alliances are for the sake of conveniences , plus the Kush could be pain in the backside at times as they were proper antagonist themselves , see the El Kab inscription.

As for Set Worship among the Hyksos I can't rule out the Levantine elements among them who were very Egyptianized before this era.

originally posted by: tikbalang

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Spider879

Northern Africans is a mix of Semitic and sub-saharan Africans, Sumerians ( known as black-head ) were likely from India.
Trading route stretching from Ancient egypt ( and its gigantic fields ) to China..

Its not that hard to see when things progressed, when did China enforce cultural laws?

Now remember that it were the Sumerian scribes that in records referred to the locals as black headed people. Chines scribes did the same anciently when referring to the masses.

So you can read all that from cuneiform?

You must be a genius ? or lying?

While I can't say that the ancient Chinese generically called their masses Black headed ppl, translated works of the Sumerians certainly did.
etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...#

originally posted by: Spider879




The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all , perhaps an Hurrian element with Laventine and Kush-ite mix, I said Kush-ites because one of the delta kings carried the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

The Hyksos did not invent the chariot..
1500 years earlier

originally posted by: Spider879
While I can't say that the ancient Chinese generically called their masses Black headed ppl, translated works of the Sumerians certainly did.
etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...#

probably a bit difficult to prove that with a text that post dates Sumer by 500 years

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Spider879




The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all , perhaps an Hurrian element with Laventine and Kush-ite mix, I said Kush-ites because one of the delta kings carried the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

The Hyksos did not invent the chariot..
1500 years earlier

originally posted by: Spider879
While I can't say that the ancient Chinese generically called their masses Black headed ppl, translated works of the Sumerians certainly did.
etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...#

probably a bit difficult to prove that with a text that post dates Sumer by 500 years

I didn't say they did, only that they introduced it to Egypt.

Well I can only defer to folks that have more knowledge than myself...btw is there an alternate translation of the text as most of us lay people use the ones like in the link, I am guessing this was filtered through their successors the Babylonians.

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Spider879




The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all , perhaps an Hurrian element with Laventine and Kush-ite mix, I said Kush-ites because one of the delta kings carried the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

The Hyksos did not invent the chariot..
1500 years earlier

originally posted by: Spider879
While I can't say that the ancient Chinese generically called their masses Black headed ppl, translated works of the Sumerians certainly did.
etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...#

probably a bit difficult to prove that with a text that post dates Sumer by 500 years

originally posted by: Spider879I didn't say they did, only that they introduced it to Egypt.

Well I can only defer to folks that have more knowledge than myself...btw is there an alternate translation of the text as most of us lay people use the ones like in the link, I am guessing this was filtered through their successors the Babylonians.

Most Sumerian texts are actually Akkadian. The Akkadians were the Mesopotamian masters of literature and one of the common themes was to rewrite old myths. laments for ruined cities were their favourites, because, well, its grandstanding isn't it, as if to say, they were great, but we are greater, because we are still here..
The Sumerians referred to themselves as "the noble Lords" (KI EN GIR), the Akkadian aristocracy started to refer to the common people as "the black headed peoples", after 2400BCE and it was a reference to hair colour, not skin tone.

the most famous rendering of "black headed peoples" is attributed to Hammurabi, who famously is quoted right at the start of his famous law code stele

When Anu the Sublime, King of the Anunaki, and Bel, the lord of Heaven and earth, who decreed the fate of the land, assigned to Marduk, the over-ruling son of Ea, God of righteousness, dominion over earthly man, and made him great among the Igigi, they called Babylon by his illustrious name, made it great on earth, and founded an everlasting kingdom in it, whose foundations are laid so solidly as those of heaven and earth; then Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind.

The writing appears directly below the image of Shamash handing Hammurabi the rod of divinity, symbolising his right to rule

☪★EGYPT ★ EGYPT'S FIRST RESIDENTS WERE TURKS
....The original civilizing race came apparently from Asia, before the age of the Pyramids.....

.....(the carved slates, supposed to be as old as the 1st dynasty, represent hunting scenes, and wars with negroes ; and the writer regards them as showing invaders from Asia Minor; for they are armed with the double axe of Karians and Kretans, found also on Hittite monuments, and at Behistun as well as in Etruria as used by Turanians....)

....The people of Lukopolis (wolf town) propitiated the wolf that tore their sheep; other shepherds adored the bull and the ram.....

....5th dynasty , at Memphis (or at Elephanta) say 3950 to 3700 BC. The Turin copy of the Ritual belonged to this age, with various proverbial treatises. The skulls are long, like those of modern Egyptian peasants, whereas those of the first four dynasties are round, suggesting a Turanian race.....

....The Hyksos called themselves Min , coming from a country east of Syria and near Assyria.

They appear therefore to have been Minni, or Minyas from near Lake Van: and the Minyans of this region (Matiene or Mitanni) in the 15th century BC. spoke a Turanian language, being apparently of the same stock with the Kassites of Babylon and the Hittites, which agrees with the worship of Sutekh. (Between the 12th and 18th dynasties also, foreign pottery like that found in Palestine, Kappadokia and on the shores of the Eagean Sea, appears in Egypt and is marked with emblems of the "Asianic syllabary" which was used by Hittites, Karians, Kretans and Kuprians......

...The Kassites were then ruling in Babylon and the whole Turanian power, from Asia Minor and Syria to Mesopotamia.....

....Kadesh and Karkemish are named with the Masu (Mysians) , Pidasa (Pedasos) Leka (Lycians or Ligyes) Dardani (Dardanos) and others. (The Kassites were then ruling in Babylon, and the whole Turanian power, from Asia Minor and Syria to Mesopotamia- perhaps aided by Aryans (see Rameses III,below)- was leagued against Egypt-ED)....

...Thus for three generations, Semitic and Turanian influence began to reassert itself in Egypt....

Tur should be read Mar ; Marduk actually reads Turduk .

a reply to: 23432

There are so many things wrong with that, I have no idea where to begin...
you know Facebook isn't really a great source though ?

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Spider879




The Identification of the Hyksos is interesting they seemed to be an amalgam of ppl although worshiping or elevating the old kemitian God Set above all , perhaps an Hurrian element with Laventine and Kush-ite mix, I said Kush-ites because one of the delta kings carried the name Nahasi, while the Kush-ites proper were allies of the Hyksos, if you remember the correspondence of the Hyksos king to his Kush-ite partner, captured by Kamose.

The Hyksos did not invent the chariot..
1500 years earlier

originally posted by: Spider879
While I can't say that the ancient Chinese generically called their masses Black headed ppl, translated works of the Sumerians certainly did.
etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...#

probably a bit difficult to prove that with a text that post dates Sumer by 500 years

originally posted by: Spider879I didn't say they did, only that they introduced it to Egypt.

Well I can only defer to folks that have more knowledge than myself...btw is there an alternate translation of the text as most of us lay people use the ones like in the link, I am guessing this was filtered through their successors the Babylonians.

Most Sumerian texts are actually Akkadian. The Akkadians were the Mesopotamian masters of literature and one of the common themes was to rewrite old myths. laments for ruined cities were their favourites, because, well, its grandstanding isn't it, as if to say, they were great, but we are greater, because we are still here..
The Sumerians referred to themselves as "the noble Lords" (KI EN GIR), the Akkadian aristocracy started to refer to the common people as "the black headed peoples", after 2400BCE and it was a reference to hair colour, not skin tone.

the most famous rendering of "black headed peoples" is attributed to Hammurabi, who famously is quoted right at the start of his famous law code stele

When Anu the Sublime, King of the Anunaki, and Bel, the lord of Heaven and earth, who decreed the fate of the land, assigned to Marduk, the over-ruling son of Ea, God of righteousness, dominion over earthly man, and made him great among the Igigi, they called Babylon by his illustrious name, made it great on earth, and founded an everlasting kingdom in it, whose foundations are laid so solidly as those of heaven and earth; then Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind.

The writing appears directly below the image of Shamash handing Hammurabi the rod of divinity, symbolising his right to rule

But how could that be a reference to hair color when the Akkadians themselves were Black haired Semites regardless if they were simply high yalla or a deeper shade of brown/black, but Black in the following passage made it clear that this was not simply about hair color nor did it meant African Blacks which language ruled out but Black Asians ,
Then he proceeded to the land of Meluha. Enki, lord of the Abzu, decreed its fate: Black land, may your trees be great trees, may your forests be forests of highland mes trees! Chairs made from them will grace royal palaces! May your reeds be great reeds, may they ......! Heroes shall ...... them on the battlefield as weapons! May your bulls be great bulls, may they be bulls of the mountains! May their bellowing be the bellowing of wild bulls of the mountains! The great powers of the gods shall be made perfect for you! May the francolins of the mountains wear cornelian beards! May your birds all be peacocks! May their cries grace royal palaces! May all your silver be gold! May all your copper be tin-bronze! Land, may all you possess be plentiful! May your people ......! May your men go forth like bulls against their fellow men!"
etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...
The above if one trust the translation is not about hair color which would have been ubiquitous for the area consistied of Semites and non Semites alike, for in the Persian gulf rest assured Black haired folks are dominant to this day regardless of skin tone.
Plus later Meluha and Megan came to be identified with Kmt and Kush respectively , although in earlier times it may well referred to different locations.

originally posted by: Marduk
a reply to: 23432

There are so many things wrong with that, I have no idea where to begin...
you know Facebook isn't really a great source though ?

In the conventional sense of course you are correct .

But i am approaching from the impossible angle and I have to tell you that Etymologically at least the story connects somewhat.

I am fully aware of the " nationalistic " narrative but I am compelled to point out a Greater Turanian Conspiracy .

We are afterall ATS , so please take this claim in this sprit .

Oldest Hittite Dam in the World is in my village,literally.

I grew up with a lullaby that told the defeat Ramsses at the hand of my grandpa .

I know that none of the above equates to accepted conventional science of archelogy but I have to say that these claims doesn't dispute archeology but only it's interpretation(s) of it.

Proper good old conspiracy sake , I'll throw in the Bible too ;

◄ Genesis 11:7 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version

"Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."



Visit my village ; www.hittitemonuments.com...

originally posted by: Spider879
But how could that be a reference to hair color when the Akkadians themselves were Black haired Semities regardless if they were simply high yalla or a deeper shade of brown/black,

Simply, firstly, because you are diffusing your culture onto theirs, they didn't distinguish people by their skin colour like we do, they distinguished people by their location. Black headed equates to common people because they all had black hair.

secondly Writings in the Ur-III period describe Meluhha as the 'land of the black mountains", and the text which you cut that from, Enki and the World order, in the transliteration actually includes the word for mountain in that line "Kur"
kur gig2
Here read it for yourself source
line 221, hold your mouse over the word for the English translation, then click on the "221" to see the full English translation of that line.

so your English text is just abbreviated for some reason, probably just laziness on the part of the original translator, who knew that Meluhha was always referenced like that

Thirdly the word saĝgiga which ONLY if you break it down to sag-gig-ga translates to black headed people, doesn't translate that way at all as a meaning. That's more a derivation for the word in the same way that red is derived from ruddy, that may be the source, but the meaning is different

Want to know what the meaning of saĝgiga actually is
just click
Here

So it can't really have been a reference to skin colour

I also think you are inferring too much meaning to the word, its only ever been found on four texts in 3500 years of continuous history. So it was hardly important.



a reply to: 23432

Linguistics doesn't work like that, sorry

a reply to: Marduk


Can you say that the Linguistic and Archeology are beyond Politics ?



Folklore is the Maxim of Culture(s) ; false narratives will always fail at the end .

originally posted by: Spider879
....but Black in the following passage made it clear that this was not simply about hair color nor did it meant African Blacks which language ruled out but Black Asians ,
Then he proceeded to the land of Meluha. Enki, lord of the Abzu, decreed its fate: Black land, may your trees be great trees, may your forests be forests of highland mes trees! Chairs made from them will grace royal palaces! May your reeds be great reeds, may they

It refers to the color of the soil - same as in Egypt where the Delta is called the Black Land (it's a common phrase around the world. Here in Texas we have the Blackland Prairie which is named for the soil color and not for the hair or the skin of the people who lived here.) Some scholars believe it refers to the Indus Valley Civilization (again, fertile land with a heavy organic content ("black land")), and there is a match with the arcaeological evidence, though without textual confirmation it's simply a suggestion.

Just seems strange to me that the Chinese discovered the water wheel, the clock, trip hammers, many other things, but the Egyptians did not? seeing as Egyptians went eastwards to China? The eastwards Egyptians were the brains of the whole Egyptian nation?
A nation that built the pyramids?

originally posted by: pikestaff
Just seems strange to me that the Chinese discovered the water wheel, the clock, trip hammers, many other things, but the Egyptians did not? seeing as Egyptians went eastwards to China? The eastwards Egyptians were the brains of the whole Egyptian nation?
A nation that built the pyramids?

First, I think that you have to dive deeper into history and the timeline of technology. Egyptians did, in fact, have clocks and a lot of other things but there are cultural and material reasons why they developed certain things and the Chinese developed entirely different things. Ideas and trade goods moved along long pathways throughout the world, but just because one country had something did not mean that another country would find it useful or desirable.

You also have to look at timelines.

And pyramids, frankly, aren't that complicated.

It was Kramer cited in Marduk's link that stated Enki After fashioning the Black-headed people the God...Enki? went to Meluhha and profusely blessed it. Yes the Mountains were Black , but so was it's people
people.ucls.uchicago.edu...
Scroll down to pg 278 to see what I am talking about.

And from Marduk's recommended link

saĝgiga [HUMANKIND] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. saĝ-gig2-ga "humankind" Akk. şalmat qaqqadi [1] cuneiform SAG.MI.GA saĝ-gig2-ga (sag-gig2-ga) + -0 (4x/100%). 3500 3000 2500 2000 1500 1000 (no date) [1] 4 1 distinct form attested; click to view forms table. 1. humankind (4x/100%) ~ Akk. şalmat qaqqadi "the black-headed ones, mankind"

psd.museum.upenn.edu...

And I don't know how long the term Sudan have been in use but it is translated into Black Land from Arabic a place of black ppl , this is also correlated with Ethiopia , so I don't see why even earlier ppl would be skiddish about identifying themselves or others with a particular shade.

a reply to: nOraKat
I think you're right
Thanks

originally posted by: Spider879
It was Kramer cited in Marduk's link that stated Enki After fashioning the Black-headed people the God...Enki? went to Meluhha and profusely blessed it. Yes the Mountains were Black , but so was it's people
people.ucls.uchicago.edu...
Scroll down to pg 278 to see what I am talking about.

And from Marduk's recommended link

saĝgiga [HUMANKIND] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. saĝ-gig2-ga "humankind" Akk. şalmat qaqqadi [1] cuneiform SAG.MI.GA saĝ-gig2-ga (sag-gig2-ga) + -0 (4x/100%). 3500 3000 2500 2000 1500 1000 (no date) [1] 4 1 distinct form attested; click to view forms table. 1. humankind (4x/100%) ~ Akk. şalmat qaqqadi "the black-headed ones, mankind"

psd.museum.upenn.edu....

It is not a reference for skin colour, unless you are claiming that everyone who constituted "Humanity" was black. The country was named after the black mountains at its border...
The Sumerians didn't even have a word for negro.
We have a group of "black mountains" in Wales too, are you claiming that's also a reference to skin colour ?
Meluhha is currently believed to be the Indus civilisation.

originally posted by: Spider879

And I don't know how long the term Sudan have been in use but it is translated into Black Land from Arabic a place of black ppl , this is also correlated with Ethiopia , so I don't see why even earlier ppl would be skiddish about identifying themselves or others with a particular shade.

1842
they weren't skiddish, they just didn't care about skin colour

I dont think so
Ancient Egypt had no links with Chinese civilization