What will it take to change your mind?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: namine
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Hm, how would said God prove he is the creator of the universe though?

Now THAT is the million dollar question isn't it? Outside of forcing us to witness it, it would be pretty hard. Maybe the god can produce some residual evidence that we can trace back to it that would prove he did it? Something like finding fingerprints at the scene of a crime for instance. We already know about the Cosmic Microwave Background and the Neutrino Microwave Background. If God's fingerprints are on that (or even better those two things ARE god's fingerprints) then that could go a long way to proving his divinity.

That might work or have him create another universe perhaps? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all. And your idea is all supposedly within God's power to do so.

originally posted by: namine

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: namine
a reply to: Krazysh0t
Hm, how would said God prove he is the creator of the universe though?

Now THAT is the million dollar question isn't it? Outside of forcing us to witness it, it would be pretty hard. Maybe the god can produce some residual evidence that we can trace back to it that would prove he did it? Something like finding fingerprints at the scene of a crime for instance. We already know about the Cosmic Microwave Background and the Neutrino Microwave Background. If God's fingerprints are on that (or even better those two things ARE god's fingerprints) then that could go a long way to proving his divinity.

That might work or have him create another universe perhaps? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all. And your idea is all supposedly within God's power to do so.

Well, what proof do you ask from your friends/lovers? Do you at some point let faith or trust take over? Do you see any value at all in faith or trust, because I find both to be quite valuable.

There were many who saw Jesus perform miracles who still refused to believe. I don't think it's possible to completely prove anything at all, which is where we let faith take over.

My two cents.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: namine

I'd equate it to being in love (well, it is love!).. of course, you can never empirically prove love, but you sure know when you're in it (and if/when it ends).

I've heard a lot of speculation as to the origin and veracity of the Gospel, going both ways. However, the truth found within is still there, and regardless to how it came about, I find it to contain unmatched treasure-- at least that's my mindset at the moment.

I cannot imagine a time when that might change but also know that nothing is immutable.

Good discussion, though! sf

Thanks, appreciate it!

Good point about love. Even then, there are circumstances that can make you fall out of love with a person. It's an exercise of figuring what those circumstances might be for you.

Ha, I've heard a lot of speculation regarding the veracity of the gospels too. It's one thing to extract and live by the "truths" that apply to your life and another to believe the entirety of the Bible unquestionably. I guess the question is geared more towards those who believe the latter.

Thanks again, it's been a pleasure!

originally posted by: zosimov
Well, what proof do you ask from your friends/lovers? Do you at some point let faith or trust take over? Do you see any value at all in faith or trust, because I find both to be quite valuable.

There were many who saw Jesus perform miracles who still refused to believe. I don't think it's possible to completely prove anything at all, which is where we let faith take over.

My two cents.

Well, for some believers it's like being in a friendship or relationship with someone and wholeheartedly deciding that under no circumstances will that friendship or relationship end. If they lied to you, cheated on you, killed your family? Are there really no circumstances that would change your attitude towards your friend/lover? You've got to draw the line somewhere, right?

Similarly, there's got to be something that would change their belief system? Otherwise, is it really a rational belief system?

I find value in faith and trust, but I'm also willing to reassess my faith and trust if contrary information comes to light.

To those people who saw the miracles and still didn't believe, it can only stand to reason the "miracles" weren't convincing enough to them. Do you believe there are some people that actually watch televised magic shows and believe that the performer is pulling off genuine magic? Maybe those people saw Jesus merely as a performer?

originally posted by: namine

To those people who saw the miracles and still didn't believe it can only stand to reason the "miracles" weren't convincing enough to them. Do you believe there are some people that actually watch televised magic shows and believe that the performer is pulling off genuine magic? Maybe those people saw Jesus merely as a performer?

You're absolutely correct in that it goes beyond the rational into the mysterious! In my mind, that some did believe and even died for those beliefs, and that some refused believe only serves to deepen the mystery.

Here's another great Einstein quote regarding mystery.

"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grast, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man."

We have a love of Einstein in common, it would seem!

a reply to: zosimov

Trusting your friend with to tell the truth when he tells a story is easier because you likely know the people he is talking about, know the friend, and you know what the friend is physically capable. Believing a story that happened 2000 years ago, involves supernatural events, has gone through several translations, many rewrites, and was likely retold orally many times before finally being committed to paper is a MUCH different situation.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

But if were are going down this road, please prove to me a soul exists now.

Prove it doesn't.

originally posted by: zosimov

You're absolutely correct in that it goes beyond the rational into the mysterious! In my mind, that some did believe and even died for those beliefs, and that some refused believe only serves to deepen the mystery.

Here's another great Einstein quote regarding mystery.

"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grast, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man."

We have a love of Einstein in common, it would seem!

Oh man, that's another great one! Definitely. And Einstein did believe in a "god of order" so to speak, though people tend to misinterpret that. One thing I love about him was his open-mindedness.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Krazysh0t

But if were are going down this road, please prove to me a soul exists now.

Prove it doesn't.

But you're the one insisting it does???

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: zosimov

Trusting your friend with to tell the truth when he tells a story is easier because you likely know the people he is talking about, know the friend, and you know what the friend is physically capable. Believing a story that happened 2000 years ago, involves supernatural events, has gone through several translations, many rewrites, and was likely retold orally many times before finally being committed to paper is a MUCH different situation.

Life itself is a supernatural event, in my opinion. And the passage of time is of no consequence to me, as I don't think that much has changed (aside from the superficial) in the meantime.

When we get to the origin of life, of logic, of love, well, we have many questions but no sufficient answers. I have found an answer that (so far) is sufficient to me. And I'm sure you have done the same in your own way.

a reply to: namine

Jesus should absolutely jump through hoops! When you go to a doctor for heart surgery, you would want the comfort of knowing they'd jumped through the necessary hoops to become a qualified surgeon, right?

This isn't heart surgery, its "making water to wine".

But BS claims of miracles aside, what is it you expect from the surgeon? You don't need to see his record of life saving performance? Wheres you demanding he prove to you he's a surgeon? Do you demand the pilot show his credentials to you, fly a simulator while you watch? Or do you just get in the plane, sit down and strap in, blindly faithful to 'whomever is flying this plane'?

Oh, different yard sticks.

originally posted by: intrptr
This isn't heart surgery, its "making water to wine".

But BS claims of miracles aside, what is it you expect from the surgeon? You don't need to see his record of life saving performance? Wheres you demanding he prove to you he's a surgeon? Do you demand the pilot show his credentials to you, fly a simulator while you watch? Or do you just get in the plane, sit down and strap in, blindly faithful to 'whomever is flying this plane'?

Oh, different yard sticks.

So you believe hospitals and airlines hire doctors and pilots willy-nilly? Without requesting any sort of evidence that they are who they are and can do what they say they can?

And what about all the people who've claimed to be Jesus for the past few centuries? Do you believe any of them actually were?

EDIT: And you still haven't answered the thread's question...

originally posted by: namine

originally posted by: intrptr
This isn't heart surgery, its "making water to wine".

But BS claims of miracles aside, what is it you expect from the surgeon? You don't need to see his record of life saving performance? Wheres you demanding he prove to you he's a surgeon? Do you demand the pilot show his credentials to you, fly a simulator while you watch? Or do you just get in the plane, sit down and strap in, blindly faithful to 'whomever is flying this plane'?

Oh, different yard sticks.

So you believe hospitals and airlines hire doctors and pilots willy-nilly? Without requesting any sort of evidence that they are who they are and can do what they say they can?

And what about all the people who've claimed to be Jesus for the past few centuries? Do you believe any of them actually were?

People put way too much into Jesus , who he was and what he meant. Its been blown all out of proportion. Look at him like a Socrates, Gandhi, or Martin Luther King. They just told the truth, struggled for equality. The world killed them for it, too.

They didn't do 'miracles' either. Just stood up for justice, truth, equal rights, etc.

Heart surgery and piloting airliners is completely different.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Krazysh0t

But if were are going down this road, please prove to me a soul exists now.

Prove it doesn't.

Doesn't work that way. Proving negatives are impossible. If you say it exists, there must be proof of existence. Plus now you are just throwing me a cop out because you cannot reasonably answer the questions I posed to you.

originally posted by: intrptr
People put way too much into Jesus , who he was and what he meant. Its been blown all out of proportion. Look at him like a Socrates, Gandhi, or Martin Luther King. They just told the truth, struggled for equality. The world killed them for it, too.

They didn't do 'miracles' either. Just stood up for justice, truth, equal rights, etc.

Heart surgery and piloting airliners is completely different.

Okay, I get your point. That would be all good and well if Jesus himself hadn't claimed to be much more than just another man though.

So I take it you believe in what Jesus taught but not all the mythology surrounding him?

a reply to: namine

It can't be proven ether way, my point. Describing the spirit is impossible from our perspective. Analogous to describing 'up' to 2D flatlanders, if that makes any sense.

a reply to: zosimov

How is life a supernatural event? Hell, define supernatural for me, because the way I see it, the supernatural is impossible. Everything within the universe is natural. We just either understand what is going on or we don't. Just because we are unaware of something though, doesn't make it supernatural. Supernatural is a made up word.

a reply to: namine

Okay, I get your point. That would be all good and well if Jesus himself hadn't claimed to be much more than just another man though.

He didn't. Over time Its been twisted that way, by the same people that killed him in the first place. The ones running everything want you subservient to them, not independent.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Doesn't work that way for you. For you there is no proof possible.

Anyway...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: zosimov

How is life a supernatural event? Hell, define supernatural for me, because the way I see it, the supernatural is impossible. Everything within the universe is natural. We just either understand what is going on or we don't. Just because we are unaware of something though, doesn't make it supernatural. Supernatural is a made up word.

Okay that's a good point but all words are made up. What basis do we have for language, or logic for that matter? How does something appear from nothing?

It's very true that we don't have answers for these questions, and perhaps that is why we have come up with a number of explanations that are impossible to prove or disprove. For me, I have seen real life positive effects that have come directly from my new-found belief. Why would I stop believing something that has benefited me in great ways?