Russia is Free & America is Becoming Communist!!!!

How ironic how we worked so hard to "free" the russian people from communist rule, live their own lives and choose their own destinies and now it seems the exact opposite is happening to us here in the united states.

We are turning into a police state, trading off "some" of our basic civil liberties for security. Washington D.C. during the presidental inauguration was a joke. Snipers on rooftops, every single person being frisked and searched randomly and without question. If any foreigner were visiting the U.S. for the first time and came to D. C., they would have left in disbelief over our alleged "freedom".

No, it is not communistic, it is fascist. Communism would be different from what you have described. And besides, putin is practically communist, there are only a few things stopping him from making Russia a communist state once more.

This assertation is wrong. First of all Russia is sadly slipping back into a dictorship and the U.S. is not losing any freedoms. Liberals keep crying about the Patriot Act but it doesn't curtail citizen's freedoms in any way, it just updated old laws to catchup with new technologies such as cell phones used by terrorists.

People should be reading Thomas Paine, studying law, going against the system mentally, and preparing to fight to get our freedom back, so we can do what was done 300 years a go and fight with these a-holes and give them the f-you to those "Free Speech Zones", I can techniquely protest anywhere, but in front of a business that is offened by my views. He and his people have the audacity to use"Freedom" as the theme for the inaguralation and their parties. We should be fighting the "No Child Left Behind" Act because it pushes students too hard at every grade, forces them and their families to give theme drugs similar to Heroin, Crystal Meth, etc. to some(ADD, ADHD, etc.) diesases that we haven't had proof of for the last 20 years!

Few problems with some of the remarks said in this thread.

First of all, America is so far away from being a Communist society. Communism is a type of economy first of all, not a political system of frisking and snipers on a roof. People need to pick up a book and actually read of what communism is. What you described is a dictatorship/totalitarianism/fasicm.

Second of all, Putin is not a communist and Russia is not going back into communism. The Parliament in Russia have pressed hard to get rid of the October Revolution parades that happen every year in memory of Lenin and his revolution.

Lastly, if you believe the Patriot Act does not limit or freedoms then you are a plain fool and that is all.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

the U.S. is not losing any freedoms.

I have to strongly disagree. America has lost lots of its Freedom and the constitution has been butchered right in front of you. The authorities have gained a great deal of power over the people, supposedly to aid in the war agaisnt terror, even though all the legislation does very little to combat weaknesses posed by illegal aliens and immigrants.

How do i know? Im from England and the same thing is happening here.

Within a few months the Police will legally be able to stop me on the street and take my fingerprints with an electronic device and store them on the system. For reasons ranging from having no I.D (!) right down to the smallest suspition they may have that i have commited a crime, even if they have no real reason to beleive so. Since when was having no identification a crime? If you think the patriot act in your country is solely for terrorists your going to get one hell of a nasty surprise. Your loosing more and more liberty as we speak.

sorry to break it to you but they already can stop and search you in the UK and have been able to for quite some time under anti-terror legislation but they have to give a reason unlike in the US where they can stop and question you without giving you any reason.

As far as fingerprinting you for having no ID, there is no legal requirement to carry any form of identification in the UK and can only detain you to confirm your identity. They cannot fingerprint you unless you have committed an offence and at the moment and for the foreseeable future until such time as ID cards become compulsary (which is years in the future) it is not an offence to not have any ID.

BUT thats not to say we are not heading in the same direction as the US, it's just that it is being done slower and quieter than over there.

Originally posted by arnold_vosloo
sorry to break it to you but they already can stop and search you in the UK and have been able to for quite some time under anti-terror legislation but they have to give a reason unlike in the US where they can stop and question you without giving you any reason.

As far as fingerprinting you for having no ID, there is no legal requirement to carry any form of identification in the UK and can only detain you to confirm your identity. They cannot fingerprint you unless you have committed an offence and at the moment and for the foreseeable future until such time as ID cards become compulsary (which is years in the future) it is not an offence to not have any ID.

BUT thats not to say we are not heading in the same direction as the US, it's just that it is being done slower and quieter than over there.

This is becoming ridiculous. I don't know where you're getting your info, but it is wrong, wrong, wrong. Of course a policeman can ask you a question but you certainly have the right to not answer it and they can't detain you unless they have a reason to arrest you. Even if you arrested, you have the right to remain silent and they have to charge you with an offense in front of a judge (arraignment) within 24 - 48 hours. Nothing has changed, this is how it's always been.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
they can't detain you unless they have a reason to arrest you.

UH... wrong. Dude, during the pre-election campaigning of GWB, people were being arrested and detained for wearing the wrong teeshirts. You can be detained for days without setting foot in a courtroom. I don't know where you get your legal interpretations, but your the one who is 'wrong wrong wrong'. You have a poor understanding of the Patriot Act, actually all of us do, that is the intended effect. The vague letter of the law in that act for one thing, pretty much eliminates the need to show cause. It's worse than you think it is.

as posted by twitchy
UH... wrong. Dude, during the pre-election campaigning of GWB, people were being arrested and detained for wearing the wrong teeshirts. You can be detained for days without setting foot in a courtroom. I don't know where you get your legal interpretations, but your the one who is 'wrong wrong wrong'. You have a poor understanding of the Patriot Act, actually all of us do, that is the intended effect.

What you describe with the tee-shirt incident twitchy is incidental. As such, being you hail from North Carolina, please do tell how your freedoms have deminished and been impaired in real life, k? Being I live right across the state line and travel to NC on a daily basis, I have yet to see any type lose of my freedoms.

As vicious as the Patriot Act is made out to be, there is a distinct difference between 'could' and 'would', how about be realistic, as well as truthful, and apply it to your real life day-to-day life and please express and explain exactly what freedoms you have lost, in your real applied off-line life.



seekerof

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Seekerof]

This is becoming ridiculous. I don't know where you're getting your info, but it is wrong, wrong, wrong. Of course a policeman can ask you a question but you certainly have the right to not answer it and they can't detain you unless they have a reason to arrest you. Even if you arrested, you have the right to remain silent and they have to charge you with an offense in front of a judge (arraignment) within 24 - 48 hours. Nothing has changed, this is how it's always been.

I'm sorry but what I said was they if they want to search you they have to give a reason. Of course they can ask you a question but we have lost the right to silence in this country. If you refuse to answer the question and they can arrest you because of this but then you can't use what would have been your answer as your defence if it ended up in court!

The anti-terror legislation giving them stop and search powers are rarely used and when they are it is from political pressure not because it helps them to do their job.

Originally posted by arnold_vosloo

This is becoming ridiculous. I don't know where you're getting your info, but it is wrong, wrong, wrong. Of course a policeman can ask you a question but you certainly have the right to not answer it and they can't detain you unless they have a reason to arrest you. Even if you arrested, you have the right to remain silent and they have to charge you with an offense in front of a judge (arraignment) within 24 - 48 hours. Nothing has changed, this is how it's always been.

I'm sorry but what I said was they if they want to search you they have to give a reason. Of course they can ask you a question but we have lost the right to silence in this country. If you refuse to answer the question and they can arrest you because of this but then you can't use what would have been your answer as your defence if it ended up in court!

The anti-terror legislation giving them stop and search powers are rarely used and when they are it is from political pressure not because it helps them to do their job.

Maybe in the U.K. but not the U.S. These are rights guaranteed by the U.S. constitution and can't be taken away by any law, even the much villified Patriot Act.

sorry it looks like we have all been getting a bit confused, I was talking about the UK.

I have lost alot of rights, my apologist friend. I once had the right to wear anti-whatever shirts incidentally or not. I once had the right to force a probable cause hearing, but now it is as easy as calling me a 'possible' terrorist to deny my right to a hearing. I once had the right to read any book I liked from the library or the internet or the right to non-violent protest without being profiled and investigated. If I check out a book on Islamic Fundamentalism, I am a target of investigation. I once had the right to wear a towel on my head without worrying about some hero trucker calling homeland security on me. I once had the right to say, "Hey George, you suck." publicly, without worrying about getting a visit from Uncle Sam. How much of my tax money is being poured into new homeland security programs that have yet to validate their very exsistance? Our borders are as open as ever, yet my right to question that validity is gone. I once had the right to quiet enjoyment, if you want to get technical, and living in fear of being profiled and investigated because I strongly disagree with our policy is not enjoyable. If I were a foriegn national, being detained by the US government, I have lost rights to trial, and or representation completely. It isn't about what rights I have lost, it is about what is implied. The Patriot Act is chapter one in a comming series of laws, it's a precedent that allows further intrusion into my privacy. Can you say Potential Terrorist? Hell, we are all Potential Terrorists, I am a potential astronaut, a potential ballet dancer, a potential rock and roll star. Now, the only difference is, the letter of the law gives them the right to make that assertion without having to show cause. I'm sorry you don't see the inherent harm in that, but then, you are probably the most right winged person I have ever had the displeasure of debating.

"Potential" is also relative, twitchy.
Your rights are intake and you can continue to wear your anti-whomever teeshirt. How so? Cause I wear a few myself. As to your library findings, this type censoring has been going on for more years that you have been born, I would imagine, hence, it is not attributed to the vicious Patriot Act.
You still traveling around unabated daily? You still voting? You still have the choice to get a job and go to school? Can you choose between what supermarket to get your beer from? Etc., etc.

Spare me, your complaints against freedom are trivial, at best.

IMHO, your explanation is found wanting and does not constitute nor reflect any real and true life rights of freedom being restricted or constrained. Thank you very much.




seekerof

Relative, incidental... Yeah. Spare me your glorification of subjugation. A few terms for you, Harm, Potential, Incremental, Precedent. When homeland security is dragging your neighbor out into the street and beating the crap out of him a few years from now, are you going to go help him out, or are you going to wave your little flag and cheer them on? As I have said before, folks like you are going to cheering and waving little flags while they haul folks like me off in rail cars, obviously that trendy concept pleases you. I don't claim to be a historian, but I have a realistic grasp on a few concepts that apparently you and many other neo-nutjobs fail to understand. The republican party was a good thing, a balance in a system, but that conservative viewpoint has given rise adn served as a launching pad to a new extremism, and it doesn't take a historian to see the trend. Liberty is not legislatable, facism is.

twitchy, seems "freedom" is a relative term, huh?
Again, please provide where your rights of freedoms have been effected, as applied to your real life. You can still burn an American flag can't you? They burned one yesterday during the inauguration parade. How much more 'restricted' in your freedoms do you want to get?! Was this group profiled and deemed a "potential" terrorist threat? And your uproar is over the fact that you can't wear your favorite anti-whomever teeshirt? Or because you can't read Confessions from the library? Michael Moore's freedoms to express and publish seem to be intact. Interesting, huh?

The Patriot Act may allow for breaches of "freedoms", but till those breaches become an everyday occurance, the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" seems a bit overboard. Facism has nothing to do with this equation cause if it did, YOU would have been screaming such from the rooftops when Clinton was laying the foundations for it. Yet, interestingly, you were no where to be heard...




seekerof

[edit on 21-1-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Seekerof
twitchy, seems "freedom" is a relative term, huh?
Again, please provide where your rights of freedoms have been effected, as applied to your real life. You can still burn an American flag can't you? They burned one yesterday during the inauguration parade yesterday. How much more 'restricted' in your frredoms do you want to get?! Was this group profiled and deemed a "potential" terrorist threat? And your uproar is over the fact that you can't wear your favorite anti-whomever teeshirt? Or can't read uncle Tom from the library? Michael Moore's freedoms to express and publish seem to be intact. Interesting, huh?

The Patriot Act may allow for breaches of "freedoms", but till those breaches become an everyday occurance, the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" seems a bit overboard. Facism has nothing to do with this equation cause if it did, YOU would have been screaming such from the rooftops when Clinton was laying the foundations for it. Yet, interestingly, you were no where to be heard...

Clinton this Clinton that... Allow me to enlighten you. Clinton was a Bush Family Lackey. BCCI, Mena AK, those mean anything to you? Until those breaches become... So we sit and wait until it's too late? We don't speak out now? Ok. Reality check here. Our government is not an instrument of the people anymore seekerof. Our electoral process is now compromised, and the interests of an elitist few govern the many. Any system of government is inherently going to achieve a certain level of corruption, but now, this corruption is out of hand. Watching Kenneth Lay being led away in handcuffs while Cheney and Bush escaped even the slightest suspicision is just one example of countless incontrovertable proof that the system is no longer accountable. That defies the very principles of our constitution. Facism has everything to do with it, you are apparently in need of a good history lesson. The very same people, the same institutions that funded, and proliferated the Facist rise to power in germany, are now in power here. You can deny it if you like, but I will be more than happy to provide you with the facts. We have lost more than you realize, our government for one.

Oh my, now its from rights and "freedom" to "Our government is not an instrument of the people anymore". *shakes head*
Btw, for your personal black book and information, I am past history major, twitchy, University of North Carolina, buddy. Your comment questioning my knowledge of history is quite off-mark and simply immaterial to irrelevant.

You have yet to provide exactly what real-life rights and freedoms that you are experiencing in your lovely state of North Carolina, other than not being able to wear your favorite anti-whomever teeshirt and censored library book.



seekerof

Real life rights? Well, if I were to go take photographs of a landmark like a dam or a big building, I can be arrested. That's pretty real life. If I check out a book that is deemed to be of a radical idealology, I can be detained, questioned, profiled and investigated. That's pretty pretty real. If I go protest the war in Iraq, I can be deemed an enemy combatant, and held indefinately without trial or legal recourse, that's pretty real. If I spit on the side walk, I have broken the law, and can be charged under the patriot act, as breaking the law loosely defined by the patriot act, is an act of terrorism. The vague wording of the patriot act opens to the door to a litany of implications. The proposed sequel to the patriot act, which I assume you are applauding and in support of as well, will make participation on sites such as these illegal. It's a shame a history major can't (more likely won't) see the dangers inherent in a legislation that so vaguely defines so great a concept as to allow interpretations which would find the least of us guilty of the worst atrocitites.
To really get to the heart of our disagreement here, let me summarize your take on my points here...
Relative, incidental, trivial...

Here's my take on yours...

No sense continuing the debate seekerof. I'm as far left as you are right, and no concessions to be made, but I will close with a final thought here...
Without the actions and words of the radicals of either extreme, the moderates would never sway. Take that for what you will.