Breaking: French Court Rules Mayors Cannot Ban Burkini

Well, burkins and burkas are a symbol of the control of women by men. They should be banned on that basis. The fact that they also have an overtly religions overtone i.e. "look at me I'm a Muslim woman" does complicate things.

Edit to add that I am surprised some women who call themselves "feminists" actually tolerate this type of male dictated dress code for women. It's as if in the West women fought for a two-track system of rights, with a toleration that women and girl's rights for women who just so happen to be Muslim can be lesser than everyone else.

a reply to: dukeofjive696969

They had immigration of this scale?

I don't think so. If Turkey decides to let more immigrants trough their border, the Europe as we know it will be gone.

Balance and moderation in all things is difficult to adhere to.

Too much immigration from a different culture that has opposing societal norms is not a good thing. But, a slow trickle, carefully monitored giving people enough time to assimilate properly and locals enough time to accept is good.

The burkini issue is a bit funny, imo. But, it really does have some serious reasoning behind some concerns.

Women are becoming more radicalized and being encouraged to be participants more and more by the extremists. They are able to hide explosives within the yards of fabric. Unfortunately, this is a real concern.

It is hard for people to see that thousands of burqua and burkini-clad women are just women living an extreme lifestyle imposed upon them by their religion, and the possible one in a million that is hiding something deadly under all that cover-up is probably not on that beach today.

When I was growing up, Christian Pentecostal girls could not wear shorts, so in gym class, they wore a skirt over their gym suit. The Burkini girls have the same problem. Their religion dictates their clothing choices. Unfortunately, their religion is full of killers that encourage extremists to commit murderous acts in the name of their god, and normal people in western society know this and it logically creeps them out.

Cut them some slack. If I lived there and brought my children to the beach and was surrounded by all these muslim women wearing yards of fabric, I would cringe a bit, too, and wonder if that one in a million is there today.

a reply to: paraphi

I am surprised some women who call themselves "feminists" actually tolerate this type of male dictated dress code for women.

The same way we tolerate fundamentalist Christian dress codes for women or Orthodox Jew or Hindu or so on and so on... they live in the West where they are free to choose their religion and to what degree they adhere to it, they have chosen to strictly follow Islam. Choice. That's what feminism is about, freedom to choose. What's hard about this?

originally posted by: bknapple32
Good- Banning items related to a culture or religion is just the move ISIS would want to recruit more Jihadis

Agree.

This was like blaming the woman for being raped because of how she dresses.

If it upsets you seeing a woman dressed in a burkini (other) - - - its your problem, not the dressee. (yes, made up word)

I do support face must be visible for drivers license.

originally posted by: Kali74
The same way we tolerate fundamentalist Christian dress codes for women or Orthodox Jew or Hindu or so on and so on...

Fair point, but do any of these dress codes result in women having to cover themselves up so that they become a "nothing person"?

I have to say that I am struggling to picture any of these groups you mention, even though I spend 25% of my working life in London. I have come across many hidden burka clad women, but no "fundamentalist Christians".

originally posted by: Nikola014
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

They had immigration of this scale?

I don't think so. If Turkey decides to let more immigrants trough their border, the Europe as we know it will be gone.

Yes they did, at the end of ww2 hundreds of thousands of north Africans where invited to help rebuild war torn France, they where rewarded with cheap housing and no jobs, plz educate yourself, the last time this many people immigrated was at the end of ww2.

If Burkini is able to destroy European Values than these European Values are not that strong , no ?

Freedom to express yourself without fear of prosecution ; that is the Litmus test .

originally posted by: zosimov
I'd be more worried that it goes entirely against the Western spirit of freedom of choice. If one is free to go nude to a beach, well, one should also be free to go covered.

There are some beaches dedicated to nudists - but I think if you went nude

on any random beach you would get arrested for public indecency


It surely cant be comfortable under the yards of black fabric in hot weather,

apart from all the fabric, black holds in the heat, thats why the 'services' had

tropical uniforms and probably why the male clothing in the east is white, which

reflects back the heat.


Surely swimming in all that fabric could be conscrued as 'dangerous'? the weight of

all that wet fabric would drag one down?

Its safe to say, the French Government was doing it out of revenge for the terror attacks they suffered. Adopting Israel tactics....

The article is wrong first they are not a french court they are an advisory council. Any advice they give can be ignored. With the Prime minister wanting to ban them I can say that it's not likely anyone will listen. To the french that see this as a religous display on public. To them this isn't allowed to amaricans it seems odd since religion iconography at least for the moment is allowed in public. Though there is a push here to be more like the french and remove all religion from public eye

originally posted by: dragonridr
The article is wrong first they are not a french court they are an advisory council. Any advice they give can be ignored. With the Prime minister wanting to ban them I can say that it's not likely anyone will listen. To the french that see this as a religous display on public. To them this isn't allowed to amaricans it seems odd since religion iconography at least for the moment is allowed in public. Though there is a push here to be more like the french and remove all religion from public eye

Thanks.

I only want to remove religion from government.

But, they are just clothes. As an atheist I could wear them too.

Muslim women who get upset because non-Muslim women wear them - - - now that is kind of a problem. They are clothes. The clothes are not religious. Any more then the long skirts some Christian women wear.

originally posted by: Annee
The clothes are not religious. Any more then the long skirts some Christian women wear.

Unfortunately, in this case the clothes are religious and are based on the control of women. Some Christians may wear a long skirt, but line them up with other people who wear long skirts and you'll see no difference.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: Annee
The clothes are not religious. Any more then the long skirts some Christian women wear.

Unfortunately, in this case the clothes are religious and are based on the control of women. Some Christians may wear a long skirt, but line them up with other people who wear long skirts and you'll see no difference.

Let's not kid ourselves this is a direct response of the attacks france has suffered from ISIS. There tollerance us at an all time low.

a reply to: paraphi

Yes I have actually, within my own family. My mom is originally from Alabama... she grew up here in Boston but her brother and sister grew up down there. My aunt married a fundamentalist and my uncle grew up a fundamentalist. Visiting back and forth over the years and going to their churches when we visited them as well as just staying in their homes, I was exposed to that way of worshiping quite a bit. All the women there could not wear pants or shorts, they had to be dresses or skirts and no shorter than mid calf. The men do not wear shorts ever (even though they farm in the brutal, humid southern summers). The men without question were authoritative over the women, it was even in the sermons.

There's lots of stories out there if you look, some even terrifying of Christian fundamentalism in the US. It's all still happening to this day. I don't like it. I don't like anything that puts people on different levels, including Muslim families that operate the same way (which a significant portion don't, even in the Middle East)... but it isn't my choice. It's not right for me to say that anyone shouldn't live that way, shouldn't live their life according their beliefs (unless it's abusive). The west is supposed to embrace freedom and liberty above all else, notions first put to society in France ironically enough. No exceptions. There's no asterisk for Islam and the attempt to make is repugnant to the notion of Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.

originally posted by: 23432
If Burkini is able to destroy European Values than these European Values are not that strong , no ?

Freedom to express yourself without fear of prosecution ; that is the Litmus test .

Very well said.

a reply to: eletheia

Burkinis are made of swimsuit materials.

It's good to hear France came to its senses.

originally posted by: paraphi
Well, burkins and burkas are a symbol of the control of women by men. They should be banned on that basis. The fact that they also have an overtly religions overtone i.e. "look at me I'm a Muslim woman" does complicate things.

Just like people who wear crosses around their neck, pray in public, carry bibles, proselytize and nuns who wear habits? "Look at me! I'm a Christian!" Should these things also be banned? They have overt religious overtones...

a reply to: 23432

Burkini will not destroy Western/freedom values.

The issue with the burkini in France is what it represents, what is behind it.

The other issue with the burkini, same as the burka (and other ninja attire), if nothing is done, their numbers grow in some areas (communities...) then people supporting these will then slowly impose their views and drive other people away.
E.g. Sharia for Belgium, was a political party in Belgium. Some areas of London where some people are now asking for the sharia.
note: I heard of an area where the "soft" sharia was applied, tolerated by UK gov, but this is only an earsay, I did not see evidence of this claim.
In Wuppertal, some young guys claiming to be the muslim police and directing the muslims in the street how to behave (e.g. when they saw one with a beer they would tell him not to do so).
In Nizza, some guys attacking a waitress because she was from Morocco - therefore assumed as being muslim - and serving alcohol.
A (public) swimming pool in Lille was regularly reserved by the town for muslim women, all men driven out, all windows covered...
When Charlie Hebdo murders took place, the head of muslim representation in France (CFCM) totally condemned the attacks, but mentioned that the Charlie people had been "looking/calling for it".
One hears more and more of women wearing short dresses and being insulted, in cities, for wearing these dresses.

Slowly, this is happening. Burkini is part of it.

Western countries have to stand their ground, defend their values.

Now, I agree, ban is never a solution. Where does it stop?

But then, what should we do?
Problem is, I do not have any solution.

You can not, ever, force a culture to change. You may ban it, destroy it, mock it, but true change comes from with in the culture.

Islam will not change it's mores or ethics 'til it thinks it's time to. All the outside pressure in the world will do nothing save make them more stubbornly resistant to change.