The Azgen

The Azgen

It was quite by chance that I stumbled over a reference to the Azgens in the book The Frontiersmen by Allan W. Eckert. It briefly referred to the Azgens, speaking of a mysterious tribe of Indians who had white skin and had come from the East to the area around present day Kentucky. In an appendix to the novel there was a brief note about the Azgen, suggesting that perhaps these were the settlers of the lost colony of Roanoke, North Carolina.

But to my mind a more intriguing explanation occurred. “Azgen” sounded very similar to “Aztec” and could possibly even be related to Atlantis, which certainly would have been to the east, and quite possibly could have been inhabited by white men.

The Mayans, predecessors of the Aztecs in southern Mexico and throughout Central America, told legends of their earliest history--that of a flight from danger. They had once lived in a great land in the eastern sea, but fled from a cataclysm. The land, which they called “Aztlan” or “Atlan”, sank beneath the sea.

Sound familiar? This is certainly an interesting subject and I need to become reacquainted with a few books that I haven’t read in years, but I promise I’ll bring you all of the results of my investigation on the Azgen.





[edit on 1/20/2005 by southern_cross3]

I've been searching online for information about the Azgen, and I must say it's very hard to come by. Here are a few links to information on them, though it is sparse and really doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

A page of info written by someone who has vaguely heard of the Azgen before: www.geocities.com...

A journal entry that makes a momentary reference to the legend of the Azgens: www.geocities.com...

An article on the white ancestors of American Indians: www.barnesreview.org...

An article on "Madoc", a Welshman who is said to have founded a white tribe in America: www.madoc1170.com...

I think this Madoc theory may be the best one I've come across. While there is disappointingly little Azgen information to be found, there's quite a bit concerning Madoc.

nice work guys.... and keep up the good work. im looking forward to seeing your results!!

Is it my imagination, or do the two guys (in the boat and in the water) look like George Bush and Osama bin Laden, respectively?

I saw something on the Discovery Channel that mentioned them. They are supposed to be the descendants of the Vikings.

Relationship to the aztecs is a bit of a stretch to make over just two letters I am afraid. This is especially true since their culture is supposed to be indistinguisable from the tribes in the area for archaeology.
The fact that aztecs aren't white also compounds the problem for that conclusion.
It seems perfectly reasonable that the white Azgen were recent European immigrants who adopted the culture of the tribes surrounding them.

There is plenty of room for wondering about the history of the Aztecs, but that's really another topic. One thing that just struck me is that the aztecs artificially enlarged the island on which there capital stood. If they had done this before they would be good candidates for the root of the Atlantis story.
Plato's story of Atlantis speaks of people who had a very convenient layout in their island's harbor, created for them by a God. At some point the island is said to have sunk, if Plato's account is to be taken literally.
People from "Atlan" who build artificial islands which don't always stand up to the test of time would make an interesting parallel to that story. The only question that would remain is where was "Atlan" originally and how did Plato find out about it? If that question can't be answered I may be drawing too much conclusion from too little fact.

Ah that gets off the Azgen a little -- which I must say I've been doing research on them all day (snowed in) and I have found some absolutely fascinating information concerning them -- but supposedly Plato heard about Atlantis from Solon, who either was an Egyptian priest, or had heard the story from an Egyptian priest, I'm not sure which. I do know that Plato heard the story third-hand at least.

And what you say about the Azgen being recent European immigrants just may be true. I won't write all that I've found, because it's not all in order just yet. However, it would seem that the Azgen came to America from Europe around 1170 A.D., settled in the Kentucky/Tennessee area, had a little war with some neighboring tribes, and then as a truce agreed to leave the area. They headed northwest and integrated into other tribes, leaving behind only a passing memories and their "ghosts."

If indeed the following legend is true, then some of the anomalies present in the American Midwest, previously ascribed to Viking occupation, may in fact be the remnants of a Welsh exploration and integration.

Historians have generally assumed that there was a small colony of the Vikings of Leif Ericsson in Vinland, or the area of Canada known as Newfoundland. Some rather unconventional historians have gone farther to suggest that the Vikings actually expanded to the southwest, occupying parts of Canada around the Great Lakes and the Northern Central states of the United States, such as Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan, and Ohio.


This coincides with the description of the ancient language of the “Asguaws”, who were said to live 800 miles northwest of Philadelphia. This can be placed in the vicinity of Lake Superior and the southern shore of Hudson Bay. The similarity of the name “Asguaws” to the Azgen reputed to dwell in Can-Tuc-Kee (presentday Kentucky) suggests that the two are related.

The Welshman Madoc supposedly brought ten ships, most likely of Viking origin, into Mobile Bay and up the Alabama river, and settled around the Kentucky/Tennessee area, building stone forts and fighting the local tribes. In 1186 AD the tribe decided to head south down the river again, but were ambushed by the Cheyenne. A bloody battle ensued, and as a truce Madoc agreed to leave the area and never come back. He took his followers west, apparently, and found the Mississippi River, which they followed northward.

In 1773 Thomas Bullitt was told by Chief Black Fish of the Shawnee tribe that the land of Can-Tuc-Kee, south of the Ohio river, was not his to give. The Shawnees did not claim the land, nor did any other neighboring tribes, for it was said that the land was occupied by the ghosts of the Azgen, a white people from the Eastern Sea. The ancestors of the Shawnee had murdered them, and feared their spirits.

Madoc continued northward along the Mississippi and eventually turned Northwest on the Missouri. There they settled among and integrated with the powerful Mandans, or so the story goes.

However, going strictly by speculation, we can see that it is possible that some of the Welshman headed farther North, though for what purpose I cannot guess. They entered Canada and settled in the vicinity of Lake Superior and were eventually known as the Asguaws, reminiscent of their name “Azgen” back in Can-Tuc-Kee. Perhaps some of the Mandans went with them. Though they took on a new language and culture, and the Welsh blood was eventually spent, the Welsh language remained behind as part of an ancient heritage, which also included the belief that their ancestors had come from a land far to the east, across the ocean, or “great waters.”

Though there were not many with Madoc--perhaps around 500--the Welsh culture and language was distributed among the natives of the regions that they passed through and was passed down over generations, until white settlers came in the 16-1700s and were amazed to find that Indians of certain regions, including North Carolina and Illinois, as well as the Indian chief in Washington who told of the Asguaws, could speak Welsh.

As I've continued my research on this subject, I'll add another short note--it would appear that the "New" World was somewhat known to various peoples in Europe, though they strangely kept it secret.

Everyone is aware of the journeys of the Vikings to present-day New England and their forays into the continent as far as the mid-west and possibly as far as the Rockies. It would appear that my Prince Madoc was aware of this as well--his grandmother was a Viking-Irish Princess, which gave him knowledge of both the explorations of Leif Ericsson and St. Brendan, the Irish monk who in the 10th Century sailed to North America and explored, possibly, all the way to the Mississippi River.

This information being so well-known in Norse/British circles, perhaps Columbus knew of the land as well?

Originally posted by The VagabondOne thing that just struck me is that the aztecs artificially enlarged the island on which there capital stood. If they had done this before they would be good candidates for the root of the Atlantis story.

I don't think so. They rose to power about 2,000 years after Plato's time.

This does seem as though it could have some truths in it. You would think that if Atlantis, being the great civilization that they were. Would have some records. If it were beyond greatness, then why is it so hard to find information on it ? You would think ancient scholors would be drooling over it.

reply to post by southern_cross3


my extensive research into the Shawnee has led me to some understanding of this particular story. There are a couple of versions, each told by a different Native, three being Shawnee, to different whites and then recorded either sooner or later. My believe is that the Azgens were more than likely the Aztalans, mound-builders from the Wisconsin area. A confusion with likely pre-Columbian people that died of the Black Plague in the 1300's became confused over succeeding generations with the earlier Aztalans. Factor in the apparent Celtic colonies in the years before Columbus, coupled with the appearance of Welsh and even Norse in the area and it gets pretty complicated. I do not feel that any of the Lost colony ever made it that far west, let alone died in such numbers as to inspire a story that hung on for a couple of hundred years. So, ancient mound-builders that may have been lighter in skin tone, speaking a slightly differnt dialect, followed by Celtic colonists that were absorbed by the tirbe over many years, add in some later Nirse and Welsh explorers, followed by the Black Deat (which in its; horror would inspire long-lasting stories), followed by the post-Columbian whites shwoing up and viola instant myth. you may contact me at [email protected] if you would like to discuss any of this. Chief Kahnah Monetoo M'wawa