Acts of Barnabas

a reply to: teapot

Originally posted by teapot
Schism is common to all religions.

Yes that’s true; Schisms are caused by the differences in belief but I’m thinking mainly of the many identical parallels that exist between the two.

For example, the Quran quotes some of these other Gnostic texts word for word. They also believe Jesus is the Messiah and that he’s coming back on judgment day and that He was born of a virgin etc…

Many, many parallels but also some key divergences…

What do you think caused the split in thinking…?


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Not sure if Islam has much to do on the Gnostic side of things . The Pseudepigrapha writings seem to have had a big influence on the Hadiths and do quote them . To understand Islam today you need to factor in the modern attempts to have a unified Islam but its a war of wars ,as we see in the ME . I found this today that had some good tidbits on the differing aspects . well worth a read .

A Westerner with extensive on-the-ground experience in Syria and Iraq tackles conventional Western views of the civil wars in Iraq and Syria and proposes a dramatic rethinking of the region.

warontherocks.com...

Oh and a link to Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha and Sacred Writings www.pseudepigrapha.com...

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: enterthestage

I’m surprised some Muslims on this website haven’t chimed in by now…
Islam appears to hold a long tradition that the Gospel of Barnabas was suppressed by early Christianity.

I think a lot of Islamic theology takes many of it’s ideas from various Gnostic texts, Like the secret Gospel of John, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas etc…the later two of which it’s quotes directly…

There’s clearly been some type of strange split divergence that took place between both of these religions…IMO


- JC

You are right, a lot of early Islamic Scrolls are said to be from Clement (Alexandria?) who was pro Gnostic which is cool for a legit church father and giant of pre Nicene times.

Simon of Cyrene was said to have been crucified in a body switch in Christs place in the NHC. This is the probable source of the Islamic version of the illusion crucifixion.

I believe the Ebionites were also instrumental in creating Islam after being the first "Christians" and then deemed heretical I believe they passed on the traditions to Islam. That's a theory but I do know of a "Clementine" Arabic scroll that tells the Iblis/Adam story. I will get you a link.

Thanks for participating.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
Not sure if Islam has much to do on the Gnostic side of things.
…

Hmmm…take a look at these…


An extract from Surah 5:110 below…

…
Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave

And from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas

Infancy Gospel of Thomas

(1) When the boy Jesus was five years old, he was playing in a narrow part of a rushing stream.

(2) He was gathering the flowing waters into ponds, and immediately they were made clean, and he ordered these things with a single word. (3) And after he made clay, he molded twelve sparrows from it. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things. But there were also many other children playing with him.

(4) Then, a certain Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the Sabbath. Immediately, he departed and reported to Jesus' father, Joseph, "Look, your child is in the stream and he took clay and formed twelve birds and profaned the Sabbath?"

Maybe not identical wording, but a clear tradition has been past on from one to the other.

And there’s this…

Gospel of Judas
Jesus said, “[Come], that I may teach you about [secrets] no person [has] ever seen. For there exists a great and boundless realm, whose extent no generation of angels has seen, [in which] there is [a] great invisible [Spirit], which no eye of an angel has ever seen, no thought of the heart has ever comprehended,

[an-Nihâyah, 2/262]
So how do you think the trees that are grown for their fruit on earth will Be in Paradise, like apple trees, date palms, grape vines and so on? How do you think the flowers will be? In short, there will be what no eye has seen, no ear has heard and no human heart can comprehend and we ask Allâh (swt) to grant us some of this, by His Grace"

Again a clear parallel there…


There were 2 groups of Essenes, namely the Ossaeans and the Nazarenes.


According to R. Bultmann, there is strong Scholarly evidence which suggests, that the Essenes were the forerunners, of the Christian Gnostic movement. There is a clear parallel in phraseology and terminology, between Christian Gnostic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

"a pre-Christian Judaism of Gnostic character [gnostisierendes Judentum] which hitherto could be inferred only from later sources is now attested to by the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls”

(R. Bultmann, Theologie des Neuen Testaments, 1951, p. 361).

On top of that a few scholars believe the Ebonite’s and the Nazarenes to be one and the same. Either way there are a lot of parallels between Islam and the Ebonite’s.


- JC

a reply to: enterthestage

Originally posted by enterthestage
You are right, a lot of early Islamic Scrolls are said to be from Clement (Alexandria?) who was pro Gnostic which is cool for a legit church father and giant of pre Nicene times.

Yes, that makes perfect sense…IMO

Originally posted by enterthestage
Simon of Cyrene was said to have been crucified in a body switch in Christs place in the NHC. This is the probable source of the Islamic version of the illusion crucifixion.

Interesting. I have another theory. I believe the idea that Jesus only appeared to be crucified comes from the book “The Acts of John” or at least parts of it’s tradition was somehow passed down etc…Here’s an extract to help describe what I mean…

The Acts of John
97 Thus, my beloved, having danced with us the Lord went forth. And we as men gone astray or dazed with sleep fled this way and that. I, then, when I saw him suffer, did not even abide by his suffering, but fled unto the Mount of Olives, weeping at that which had befallen. And when he was crucified on the Friday, at the sixth hour of the day, darkness came upon all the earth. And my Lord standing in the midst of the cave and enlightening it, said: John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink. But unto thee I speak, and what I speak hear thou. I put it into thy mind to come up into this mountain, that thou mightest hear those things which it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from his God

Of course IMO this verse is talking about Jesus in spiritual form, but it’s quite easy to see how it can be miss-interpreted as Jesus only appearing to be crucified on the cross…

Originally posted by enterthestage
I believe the Ebionites were also instrumental in creating Islam after being the first "Christians" and then deemed heretical I believe they passed on the traditions to Islam. That's a theory but I do know of a "Clementine" Arabic scroll that tells the Iblis/Adam story. I will get you a link.

Sounds like a good theory to me, both believe Jesus is the Messiah, both reject his divinity, and both rejected the atoning sacrifice; the only big difference is of the Ebionites rejecting the virgin birth, which Islam of course accepts. Although I guess it’s possible that Rome just branded the Ebionites as being heretics for a made up reason.

Strangely enough I’ve been looking into this aspect of Islam lately (Virgin Birth) and have been wondering, who Islam believes is the Father of Jesus…? Because if Jesus is born of a virgin then clearly he had no earthly father, and other parts of the Quran clearly state that God/Allah “just said be and it is” etc…Surah 3:45 to 49 for example…anyway, whole other topic…



- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: teapot

Originally posted by teapot
Schism is common to all religions.

Yes that’s true; Schisms are caused by the differences in belief but I’m thinking mainly of the many identical parallels that exist between the two.

For example, the Quran quotes some of these other Gnostic texts word for word. They also believe Jesus is the Messiah and that he’s coming back on judgment day and that He was born of a virgin etc…

Many, many parallels but also some key divergences…

What do you think caused the split in thinking…?


- JC

Human nature. I think all schism is caused not by God but by man. The human condition, polarity, desire or propensity for conflict.

Having said that, Matthew 10:34 not peace but a sword, kind of explains how passionate people can become about their beliefs and how a person views Christ will bring them into conflict with others.

Some schisms give birth to new religions, the Hindu split for instance giving the world Sikhism but I think most schism just creates new sects, different flavours of the original.

a reply to: Joecroft

I owe you a link to the Arabic Apocryphal Scrolls of Clement (of Rome, I made a mistake thinking Clement of Alexandria).

Arabic Scrolls Clement of Rome

a reply to: Joecroft

I have a book of all the known Acts, Gospels and Apocalypse that didn't get chosen and Acts of John is in it.

I will read it this morning as I read at least one a day (and then some more usually). I like what you said and quoted of it though.

I think that Islam and the Ebionites both came to accept the virgin birth but that as you said the Church fathers needed a reason to call them heretics so they accuse them of not accepting it.

Although the first Ebionites may not have believed it and only later on accepted it. Much of the unchosen Apocrypha is their work and they were friends with Clement of Rome who I am pretty sure believed it and he is the key to the Arabic-Ebionite connection.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: enterthestage

You seem more offended than I did, if I even seemed offended. I have failed at nothing and there is nothing to fail at so what are you even commenting for, to call me a failure?

The 2 failures were not directed at you but at myself and the first poster . We both failed to respond in a way you wanted or expected . You might chose in the future to be more specific as to what kind of responses you would like other's to add .

I think you have unreasonable expectations of the Padawan.

He expects to create a new logon (because of his multiple previous bannings) and broadcast his particular ideas. If we were to analyze or refute what he says, he then begins ad-hominem attacks against us. He wants only responses that are supportive and uncritical.

The fact that he is again banned is evidence.

He so totally misses the point of the Judeo-Christian texts that he takes small sections out of context and believes that one or two verses outweigh the 33,000 others. Or that something that all authorities call a fake is of value.

Perhaps when Padawan returns with his new logon, he can consider if any of his lines of reasoning has any power to save his soul or in any way contribute to his moral growth (topics of vital importance to all religious works)?

originally posted by: enterthestage
a reply to: Joecroft

I have a book of all the known Acts, Gospels and Apocalypse that didn't get chosen and Acts of John is in it.

I will read it this morning as I read at least one a day (and then some more usually). I like what you said and quoted of it though.

I think that Islam and the Ebionites both came to accept the virgin birth but that as you said the Church fathers needed a reason to call them heretics so they accuse them of not accepting it.

Although the first Ebionites may not have believed it and only later on accepted it. Much of the unchosen Apocrypha is their work and they were friends with Clement of Rome who I am pretty sure believed it and he is the key to the Arabic-Ebionite connection.

But that would indicate that the Ebionite beliefs were formalised in the post-Christian era, wouldn't it (580 years afterwards, in the case of Islam, and 80+ years after, in the case of pseudo-Clement - you are also concatenating, cross-culturally, events separated by a 1/2 millennia gap)?

You previously stated (in other topic threads) that the teachings of Jesus, of the disciples (especially including James) and the works of the Qumran community, were Ebionite in source, which would make the Ebionites pre-Christian.

Padawan, your argument lacks rational consistency.

a reply to: chr0naut

I see our Padawan has bit the dust again :>) ... His/her responses are or have become boilerplate . The voice is always the same .

a reply to: chr0naut

a reply to: the2ofusr1

A prophesy for you:
'I foresee the return of Padawan in the guise of a stranger with purple hair and yellow eyes, pretending yet again he has just joined ATS and doesnt know what a Padawan is.'

Let prophesy be upon us.

😁

Coomba98

originally posted by: coomba98
a reply to: chr0naut

a reply to: the2ofusr1

A prophesy for you:
'I foresee the return of Padawan in the guise of a stranger with purple hair and yellow eyes, pretending yet again he has just joined ATS and doesnt know what a Padawan is.'

Let prophesy be upon us.

😁

Coomba98

i object!!

a reply to: Akragon

Haha nice one. Didnt think to include a picture.

Although i was thinking more along the lines of a cross between Bad Santa and a crazy clown, raving about the most high and how everyone has been deceived and are worshipping the devil and that Padawan alone has all the answers.

Lol. A crazy Padawan clown hahahaha. 😂

Coomba98

a reply to: coomba98
You want a picture? We were given this link, once;
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: DISRAELI

Lol you found Padawan on youtube. Lol. Awesome!!

That was a funny watch.

Coomba98

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: coomba98
You want a picture? We were given this link, once;
www.youtube.com...

I love the balaclava in the video but immediately underneath is is profile photo.

Geenyus.