North Carolina police kill unarmed deaf man using sign language

a reply to: jimmyx

You say this because you seem to be ignorant as to the daily encounters that LEOs have. If you had to deal with even 10% of the BS that they encounter every day, you'd probably cry yourself to sleep (judging by your immature ranting about how to treat a LEO).

I have a LEO friend in Modesto--while it's not Stockton, it's close, and I think that your generalization of LEOs is ignorantly wanting in accuracy and reality. I'd be absolutely willing to bet that he has a bigger heart and more respect for people than you do--hating him just because he wears a uniform is tantamount to hating someone because of the color of their skin, just because some people of the same skin color do illegal things and murder people. He's already save more than one life while on duty and taken zero. Can you say the same?

Lose the ignorance, would you? Just treat an officer with respect and like they are a human being and you'll generally be perfectly fine.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I respect police officers and personally know many good ones. In my life, I have never had any very serious ecounters with the police, but I can say that I felt half of the encounters I had seemed to be with cops that were jerks, and the other half were extremely professional to me even when I perhaps didn't deserve it.

Like you, I would hope to see both sides of the story before rushing towards judgement.

I do think though that sometimes there is a rush to shoot that comes out of fear or something, and this needs to be dealt with. Like the story of the police shooting at the autistic man.

I am not sure, but if I was a cop that dealt with a bad area, I may be frightened and shoot first and ask questions later. I like to think that is not the case, but I am not sure. That is why I chose not to be a cop. I don't know if I could handle it. If there are cops that can't handle the pressure and shoot early, they should recognize this and quit, or face the consequences of being forced out and prosecuted.

The fact that there are so many good cops that can handle the fear and stress without shooting too early is what makes me respect the good ones. It is often a thankless job that seems to lately be attacked more and more lately. But despite this respect, I am fully willing to admit there are times when cops are wrong and they shoould be held accountable for their actions when that occurs.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I only saw the Daily Mail article linked in the OP. Didn't see anything about the officer deliberately "bumping" Harris' vehicle during the pursuit.

And then you devolve into massive speculation and what-if scenarios--I'm not going to take part in that.

Just trying to put myself in the dead deaf man's shoes, and read between the lines.

It's hard to imagine why cops would shoot to kill a seemingly innocent and confused man for speeding and "resisting". But, cops often don't display the best side of common sense when they get their adrenaline rushing. The burden of proof for their justification is on them.

It's not "massive speculation" to imagine why someone would run from someone they thought was a road raged attacker, in an unmarked police car.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Just treat an officer with respect and like they are a human being and you'll generally be perfectly fine.

Or what? Risk your life?

It's rare that an officer approaches someone they've stopped with respect. In my experience, officers approach everyone with an accusatory swagger and a demand for authoritarian obedience...speak when spoken to, don't act too "anything" anytime around a cop. "Walk on eggshells" so to speak, around cops at all times.

a reply to: theantediluvian

I need that shirt! Will forever keep this guy in memory! I have deaf family, and even communicating in sign or writing is different to understand (broken sentences) and facial expressions. My heart goes out to all his loved ones.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
If the driver was deaf it would have been on his driver's license. The cop should have called in his plates for wants/warrants if he was in pursuit when the driver failed to stop. That information would have been on his computer unless it was someone else's car.

It's not always on thier driver's license. It varies state to state. Sometimes people fail to report it and have it etched on the DL or on his record. Some states force you to modify the car with special mirrors (panoramic). It also doesnt apply if a person became deaf and recuperating. I'm not familiar with the law in the state the guy was shot in. In Malaysia, a hearing impaired person can drive but they have to add a sticker to the back of the car. Minnesota has an option where you can put the medical alert sign on your DL, but it wont say what it is.

a reply to: cuckooold

The officer should be charged with murder.

a reply to: cuckooold

T&C, man, T&C
Otherwise I'd be vocal.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: jimmyx

You say this because you seem to be ignorant as to the daily encounters that LEOs have. If you had to deal with even 10% of the BS that they encounter every day, you'd probably cry yourself to sleep (judging by your immature ranting about how to treat a LEO).

I have a LEO friend in Modesto--while it's not Stockton, it's close, and I think that your generalization of LEOs is ignorantly wanting in accuracy and reality. I'd be absolutely willing to bet that he has a bigger heart and more respect for people than you do--hating him just because he wears a uniform is tantamount to hating someone because of the color of their skin, just because some people of the same skin color do illegal things and murder people. He's already save more than one life while on duty and taken zero. Can you say the same?

Lose the ignorance, would you? Just treat an officer with respect and like they are a human being and you'll generally be perfectly fine.

Stop the presses! SlapMonkey here says he knows a cop who is not only a hero, but kinder and nicer than another man on the internet he's never met.

I think we should just take a lesson from this and just realize that police are born better than us. Look closely, you'll see their aura. You may even be enlightened by it yourself.

Just whatever you do stand perfectly still and don't make eye contact, they're polite, courageous, selfless, quick with a gun killers for hire.

originally posted by: GramblerBut despite this respect, I am fully willing to admit there are times when cops are wrong and they shoould be held accountable for their actions when that occurs.

You and I are on the same page, although I have always thought that I would be one of the good LEOs. I had wanted to be one since I was a kid (a Highway Patrol...I guess I would have been John and not Ponch), but life took me in another direction. I still feel the call, to be honest, but with a wife and two children now, I wouldn't want to put them through the agony of concern every day that I was on the job.

originally posted by: windword
Just trying to put myself in the dead deaf man's shoes, and read between the lines.

Right...speculation.

It's hard to imagine why cops would shoot to kill a seemingly innocent and confused man for speeding and "resisting". But, cops often don't display the best side of common sense when they get their adrenaline rushing. The burden of proof for their justification is on them.

It's only hard to imagine if you've never found yourself in a similar situation.

As for burden of proof, that lies on an accuser in court--the defendant never has to prove innocence in our legal system, only in the court of public opinion (which, sadly, seems to hold more weight these days).

It's not "massive speculation" to imagine why someone would run from someone they thought was a road raged attacker, in an unmarked police car.

Yes, it is, because you have absolutely zero evidence as to that being factual in this case. If you can't understand what speculation actually means, we can't discuss this issue at all, then, because you embrace speculation (all at the expense of the officer, of course), and I'm trying to avoid that until the facts are known. Two different approaches, I guess, but one being much less responsible, IMO.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Or what? Risk your life?

It's rare that an officer approaches someone they've stopped with respect. In my experience, officers approach everyone with an accusatory swagger and a demand for authoritarian obedience...speak when spoken to, don't act too "anything" anytime around a cop. "Walk on eggshells" so to speak, around cops at all times.

Well, I'm not saying that you are wrong, per se, but it seems as though the common variable here is you and not the officer (assuming that you haven't had the exact same LEO every time).

Have fun walking on eggshells all of the time around LEOs, and I'll continue having perfectly peaceful interactions with LEOs in my life, and we'll just agree to note that our experiences are different--but neither of our experience reflect every single LEO, because they are all different individuals with different temperaments and different training. To generalize and stereotype is to put ignorance on full display.

Enjoy those eggshells, I guess. I've only had one bad interaction with a LEO, and even then, it was just his attitude, not his actions. But then again, I don't have a ton of interactions where I'm on the receiving end of a ticket or handcuffs or anything negative, so maybe that part of why LEOs treat me with respect and dignity.

originally posted by: Bundy
Stop the presses! SlapMonkey here says he knows a cop who is not only a hero, but kinder and nicer than another man on the internet he's never met.

I think we should just take a lesson from this and just realize that police are born better than us. Look closely, you'll see their aura. You may even be enlightened by it yourself.

Just whatever you do stand perfectly still and don't make eye contact, they're polite, courageous, selfless, quick with a gun killers for hire.

You're a real intelligent person, Bundy. Thanks for making that known with such insightful commentary, and for adding so much at this point in the thread.

Here I was thinking that the thread was losing substance--I'm glad you came by to save the day!

a reply to: SlapMonkey

It's only hard to imagine if you've never found yourself in a similar situation.

You often find yourself having shot and killed an innocent and confused person?

As for burden of proof, that lies on an accuser in court--the defendant never has to prove innocence in our legal system

In this case the person being accused has already been sentenced to the death penalty without the benefit of a court room. The defendant is dead.

Well, I'm not saying that you are wrong, per se, but it seems as though the common variable here is you and not the officer (assuming that you haven't had the exact same LEO every time).

Me and the perceptions of the everyone watching the overwhelming amount of collective testimonial, physical and graphic evidence of police abuse that's been in public spotlight in recent years.

..........so maybe that part of why LEOs treat me with respect and dignity.

Just because you're chummy with your cop buddies, doesn't mean that cops generically have respect for average people, giving dignity to someone having an unaverage day, and that they won't shoot to kill someone having a knee jerk reaction to some misunderstanding, without a second thought.

Dignity my a$$!

originally posted by: windword
You often find yourself having shot and killed an innocent and confused person?

That's not what I meant, and I have a sneaking suspicion that you know that. I mean ever finding yourself in the position of authority where you do carry a firearm and are trained to deal with possibly dangerous people--and someone who flees from you for more than 7 miles automatically puts themselves in that category, regardless of any particulars about that person that the officer may or may not have known about.

In this case the person being accused has already been sentenced to the death penalty without the benefit of a court room. The defendant is dead.

Not in your scenario--you seem to think the LEO is the defendant. That's what I was referencing.

This BS rhetoric by anti-cop people such as yourself about "sentenced-to-death" people sound so ignorantly inflammatory that it's damn near impossible to take you seriously. Again, we don't know what actions the driver took when he exited the vehicle after fleeing an officer for 7+ miles. Your implication that the driver was nothing but innocent and that he did nothing to make the officer think that his life was in danger is pure and utter nonsense at this point, as you have no proof to back that claim.

I'm not claiming that the driver DID do anything provocative, I'm just saying that it's pure ignorance to claim either scenario at this point.

Me and the perceptions of the everyone watching the overwhelming amount of collective testimonial, physical and graphic evidence of police abuse that's been in public spotlight in recent years.

I'm quite certain that you haven't taken the time to actually look at the statistics of how many police encounters end in unjustifiable force, deadly or otherwise, then. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such blatantly incorrect statements that are obviously based on ideological hyperbole.

I recommend looking at stats, doing some very basic math on your own, and then looking at the conclusion with an open mind--you may surprise yourself. (and yes, I've already done this...I already know the reality of the situation)

Just because you're chummy with your cop buddies, doesn't mean that cops generically have respect for average people, giving dignity to someone having an unaverage day, and that they won't shoot to kill someone having a knee jerk reaction to some misunderstanding, without a second thought.

Dignity my a$$!

First off, I'm not buddies with any local cops--at all. I've only lived in my area for two years, and since I have such a limited interaction with LEOs, I haven't gotten to know one, at all, since I've moved here (unless you count the correctional officer that I have for a neighbor...she has become a very good friend). And before that, I didn't know any LEOs in the city in which I lived for those previous 3 years. And before that, I only knew one LEO (detective on the narcotics team) well because he was a friend of a friend, but we ran a few Tough Mudders together and became relatively decent acquaintances. I lived in that area for 10 years. Before that, I was in Germany in the military, and got to know many LEOs because of my job.

Don't mistake my logical approach to treating individual officers with respect as a claim that I'm chummy with many LEOs--I'm not, but I do know a few who are LEOs in an acquaintance role, and one who became a LEO in California after he moved away. I'm just intelligent enough to understand that, just like with anyone else in the world, LEOs have good days and bad, and some can be bad people whereas most are good or decent.

I do, however, hold them to a higher standard of conduct than the average person, just like I hold Service Members to a higher standard, but having work in the JAG office as a paralegal my whole Army career (both on the prosecution and trial defense side of the court room), I fully understand that there are bad Soldiers that include Military Police and Special Agents in the Criminal Investigation Division, as I had to help prosecute and defend members of all three categories, some of whom did some pretty terrible things (although none for murder...but I consider child porn and beating their kids with extension cords pretty terrible).

You may feel like you need to preach to me, and that's fine if you do, but just understand and accept that I have plenty of experience on the "inside" of knowing how bad some people in law enforcement can be--but also understand that I have and intelligence level high enough to know that these are the minority in their chosen profession, as evidenced by the overwhelming number of police/public interactions that happen in America on a daily basis and the minute number of those that take a deadly or violent turn when unjustified.

Best regards--as always, we aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this topic, so I'm bowing out, as further discussion seems relatively pointless.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

. I mean ever finding yourself in the position of authority where you do carry a firearm and are trained to deal with possibly dangerous people--and someone who flees from you for more than 7 miles automatically puts themselves in that category, regardless of any particulars about that person that the officer may or may not have known about.

Same thing.....When and if you do find yourself in a position of authority, do you look forward to shooting and killing an innocent person because they failed to yield to your authority and failed to stop their car in a convenient amount of time?

Not in your scenario--you seem to think the LEO is the defendant. That's what I was referencing.

Not "my" scenario"....

Don't forget who the victim is here! It's not the cop! The defendant never had a his day in court. He was accused, convicted, sentenced and executed (like a dog) by a cop, simply for giving chase.

For someone who hates "sweeping speculation", you sure speculate and project a lot about me, my integrity and interactions with police. You're willing to speculate why the officer shot and killed a "speeder" who gave chase, but condemn me for speculating why the victim didn't stop.

You may feel like you need to preach to me.......

You're the one feeling the need to preach, and single out posters to demean and harass for not deferring to the "perfection of authority of the men in blue", and not giving this officer, (yea, every officer) the benefit of the doubt, when there's no reason to do so.

Was he black? If not who cares. That's how it works now right?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
Was he black? If not who cares. That's how it works now right?

No. Door's over there. Don't let it hit you when you leave.

I keep hearing about things like this and it got me thinking. I am now referring to this as "trigger envy". (you heard it here first...) No one wants to be the only person on the police force who hasn't shot someone yet. I don't think it is something that most police do intentionally. But I do think it affects their attitude in general toward firing in any given situation. Somewhere in the back of their mind is a little voice saying, "Now is your chance..."

a reply to: Vroomfondel

If the officer in question has any conscience remaining that little voice in there head should be screaming "I just ended a disabled persons life because of my gung ho attitude and failure to communicate".

People like this should never be allowed to join the Police force in the first place.

probably ignorant cop saw deaf man waving hands aggressively and assumed he was a kung fu master coming in for a fight.

there is no justifying this act. unions keep the cops on paid leave til charges are pressed usually or other action by department