Report: Donald Trump's companies at least $650 million in debt

originally posted by: stinkelbaum
a reply to: Tardacus

only $650 million? in case you haven`t heard the country is about $19 trillion in debt,sounds like he did better in the last 8 years than obama did.

simple question.
if he's proven to be as useless with his own money as it appears, how could you trust him to to all of a sudden become competent, and manage an entire nations economy?

Did you make that assessment from debt levels?

a reply to: stinkelbaum

That`s the beautiful thing about being president you don`t have to be financially competent to qualify for the job.

The country has survived a lot of financially incompetent presidents so why is it so important in this particular election to have a candidate who is financially competent?

being financially incompetent has never disqualified a candidate from being president.

Personally, the debt load doesn't bother me, as long as one hasn't leveraged beyond legal or prudent limits and expects me to bail them out without some punishment meted out. What does bother me is how a loan might be made. For ex, I've known individuals who have lied to get a loan, or they can't get a loan other than from a lender-of-last-resort (who may be Vinnie the Lobster).

Here's the thing about just one of Trump's loans. From 1991 N.j. Agency Says Trump Loan Illegal

One of Donald Trump's casinos has admitted that it broke the law and violated terms of its license when the developer's father lent it $3.5 million by purchasing gaming chips when he had no plans to gamble, the state Division of Gaming Enforcement said yesterday.

Through his attorney, Fred Trump bought 700 gray chips, each worth $5,000, in December so that Trump Castle Casino Resort would have enough cash to make an $18.4 million interest payment on its mortgage, the division said.

Now that, to me, is just wrong, but it's one way people like Trump try to get around things. It is an art to deal like that. The artful dodger.

Another way is to have someone buy something from you at a high price when it's not really worth that much; it's really making you a loan. So, was that house in Florida Trump sold to that Russian oligarch a disguised loan? Speculation, but interesting speculation. Unlike the loan above, a loan like this one wouldn't be investigated.

Oh, I do know just average folk like me who inflate their worth to show off, when they really don't have a pot to piss in because they're so high in debt. Happens even to people who have a lot of money:

I have covered Donald Trump off and on for 27 years — including breaking the story that in 1990, when he claimed to be worth $3 billion but could not pay interest on loans coming due, his bankers put his net worth at minus $295 million. And so I have closely watched what Trump does and what government documents reveal about his conduct.

source

a reply to: Southern Guardian

Maybe the same person who forged Obama's birth certificate can forge Trump's tax return.
Oh wait...didn't that guy die under strange circumstances.

originally posted by: Southern Guardian
This part of the article right here I found amusing... and disturbing at the same time:

Trump, while on the trail, has repeatedly slammed his political rivals for their connections to Goldman Sachs.

And his new campaign manager, Steve Bannon, besides running the white nationalist Breitbart, was a banker at Goldman Sachs.
Another Goldman Sachs Alum Joins Donald Trump's Campaign

Notice it says 'another'?

Steve Mnuchin is on his economic advisory team, serves as his campaign finance chairman and is a probable pick for Treasury Secretary.
He was a partner at Goldman Sachs and worked there 17 years. His father also worked there for 3 decades. Wiki
FYI, Mnuchin also worked for Soros Fund Management and regularly donated to democrats, including Obama and Clinton.
Zero Hedge

I'm convinced the Donald, Steve Bannon, and Roger Ailes are using this election to set the groundwork for a new cable media company, to compete against Fox news.

originally posted by: Southern Guardian

originally posted by: dashen
a good developer never puts in his own cash.
he either takes a loan through an LLC that they set up, or sets up an LLC with several investors.
It may just mean he bought a lot of buildings that he is paying off.
Notice how it doesnt say he is in default on any of those loans

Hey I'll be the first to put my hand up and admit I don't fully understand the ins and outs of realstate and investment property. That being said, I find it disturbing that he is millions debt to companies the likes of Goldman Sachs and other foreign firms, including the Bank of China. There's also the other fact we don't know for sure just how much Trump is worth. Trump himself has given us a figure of $10 billion, based on little evidence. Forbes magazine puts him at $4 billion at best. Trump sued journalist O'Brien who claimed back in 2005 that Trump was worth $150 million to $250 million. That case was dismissed. Without seeing his tax returns we don't know for sure his worth.

Given that he has a $650 million loan to commit to, which to me in on itself is an indication he hasn't been all too successful in clearing his loans, and given the possibility he may not even be a billionaire, alarm bells ring.

...and yet, then you double down, despite admitting you don't understand how Real Estate debt works.

In fact... you don't understand how debt works AT ALL, in business.

Here's some "corporate 101" for ya...

Any incorporation that is not a sole proprietor, or single owner/partnership structured LLC, but is structured as a C or S Corp, is it's own entity.

Certainly, Mr. Trump's businesses are C Corps... maybe S corps... but I doubt it. As such, what is going on with capital is irrelevant to his personal finances, so far as it impacting his personal cash flows from a business revenue standpoint.

His personal equity positions are another matter... but the bottom line is... well... the bottom line... literally.

Apple Computer has about 69 BILLION of debt.

Microsoft has 53 BILLION dollars of debt.

They both have many tens of Billions of dollars of assets, as well.

So it is with Trump's organization. I'll admit, I know nothing about his company... whether it is privately or publicly held.

But the thing that matter is Trump organization's P & L, not it's debt... UNLESS it's P & L is a disaster... which, if it was... Clinton News Network (CNN) would be running the story on a loop... your OP is irrelevant.

Anyway... not trying to be mean... but your OP screams "I don't know anything about American corporations and how they run, how they do valuations, and how equity and liability fits into a business".

...and I am being very polite about it, given the obviousness of your "understanding".

M'kay, I read 3 pages in and still can't believe no one has pointed out how many times Trump has filed for bankruptcy. Sure, you can sit there & argue it was his companies, not him directly, but his fingers are in the pot, therefore the difference is null. He did it 6 effing times. I can also think of at least 14 or 15 failed businesses of his that folded. And he has that much accrued business debt to boot?

Strikes me as damn piss-poor businessman who isn't a good pick for running the country. 6 bankruptcies, and at least 14 failed businesses, people. I wouldn't trust the guy if he had a PhD for it to wipe my ass correctly.

originally posted by: Nyiah
M'kay, I read 3 pages in and still can't believe no one has pointed out how many times Trump has filed for bankruptcy. Sure, you can sit there & argue it was his companies, not him directly, but his fingers are in the pot, therefore the difference is null. He did it 6 effing times. I can also think of at least 14 or 15 failed businesses of his that folded. And he has that much accrued business debt to boot?

Strikes me as damn piss-poor businessman who isn't a good pick for running the country. 6 bankruptcies, and at least 14 failed businesses, people. I wouldn't trust the guy if he had a PhD for it to wipe my ass correctly.

Your bias is showing do you even now how many companies he has owned? Easily into thr thousands through investments. Currently just what he released in hus latest financials he currently owns 515. By the way this doesn't count companies he bought in to as a partner this is strictly his creations. He has has 6 bankruptcys 4 of which was the same failing casino. The reason he kept trying as he said he didn't want to put those people out of work. So he kept trting to rework the debt to keep the casino open. He said in his book on hindsight he should have just closed it. No bankruptcy just asset collection . But he could stand putting all thode employees out of a job. Even when he did shut it down he offered them new jobs if they chose to relocate. This was an adit iona expense he took on for relocation. My uncle actually worked there and took a job down in Florida.

So we have well over a thousand companies in thr time period and your shocked 6 didn't work. I don't know about you but that's damn good since on thr average 1 /3rd of businesses fail within the first year. Oh and go check on a company called Bain Capitol see how many chapter 11 they were involved in ot any other investment firm for that matter. See they want to lay thus on Trump an individual having 6 bankruptcys would be a huge amt. Problwm is these were not personal bankruptcys they were companies he invested in.

a reply to: Southern Guardian

And how in debt are Hillary's companies?

OPPS I forgot she doesn't have any. She has NEVER had any.

Let see Trump started with $1 million and grew that to $10 BILLION. Hillary has been in politics for over 20 years which has LOST over $10 TRILLION in that time.

Trump has filed 6 bankruptcies, but owns over 500 companies which puts him better then 95% success rate.
Hillary has...wait never owned or ran a company before so...

So he has failed a couple time, Hillary has never even tries..expect for selling US secrets and government influence to the highest bidder though the Clinton Foundations.

Honestly, Trump's debt sounds about right. I bet the assets that hold that debt are in the billions.
I am pretty sure, not positive, but pretty sure that he could sell everything and have PLENTY of profit.
I also agree 100% that you have to be able to make money to even get close to 650million in debt.

This is a non-story trying to change minds by half truths and playing on the uneducated.

It looks like it worked for those it was meant to work on... wake up please

Guess what, if you have a house you have debt too until it's paid off. This article is a pretty poor hit piece. I have $90k in debt for my house. It's worth substantially more.

a reply to: dasman888

Corporations organized under sub-chapter S, unlike those corporations organized under chapter C, are, like LLC's (Limited Liability Companies),

"Pass-through" entities.

That means that the income and losses are passed through, directly, to the owners.

Regular, or "C" corporations, are Not pass-through entities: they do Not pass-their profits and loses directly through to their owners.

A C corporation will pay, or not pay, a dividend to its shareholders depending on its profitability; although usually only those who hold preferred stock in the firm will receive a dividend (unless approved by the board of directors and voting stockholders).


What all this means is that,

By manipulating his ownership/partnership/participation levels, Trump can, and likely has minimized his Personal Income tax liabilities far below what someone in his income bracket might be expected to owe.

One more reason why he might be unwilling to disclose his tax returns.

And his machinations vis-a-vis his personal income taxes, might well be the basis of the audit the IRS is conducting, which Trump claims is the reason he has not disclosed his returns.

I wonder how many Trumpists are in hock just like he is.

originally posted by: dashen
i dont think you understand how realestate development works.
a good developer never puts in his own cash.
he either takes a loan through an LLC that they set up, or sets up an LLC with several investors.
It may just mean he bought a lot of buildings that he is paying off.
Notice how it doesnt say he is in default on any of those loans

Exactly...was going to say the same thing...nothing else to add, well said!

originally posted by: MysticPearl
a reply to: dashen

Commercial real estate requires enormous upfront payments and/or loans which will register as debt for years as you don't clear that debt until a future sale.

What also should be acknowledged is 99.9% of society couldn't get financial backing to assume such debt, which means the lenders recognize Trump has an enormously successful revenue stream(s) and has to in order to shell out such loans in the first place.

Same thing with signing a mortgage. Your credit history, income and total asset worth will dictate what type of loan you can get. Only way you get 650M of "debt" in real estate is having a successful track record of turning debt into profit and having a massive net worth.

Actually, this thread is a compliment to Trump if one actually understands debt.

Jesus thank you, someone who actually understands how debt functions. Of course haters would not know that because they waste all their debt on fancy smart phones, designer kicks and threads, and eating out all week with their friends family. Their only exposure is to consumer debt, and do not understand the function of debt to generate revenue.

Goldman Sachs and Bank of China maybe be #ty evil financiers, but finance is their business. Securing a loan from financial institutions is not even in the same ball park as being paid for your political influence.

Congrats Mr trump, with loans like that we know financial institutions clearly know you know your ish.

Commercial real estate, especially sky scrapers and such, easily run well over $100 million a piece, more depending on how many floors and in what city or commercial district the land is in.

a reply to: Southern Guardian

He has a track record of driving businesses into the ground but it's up to the voters now.

If some folk want someone like that as POTUS then go ahead and vote for Trump. But riddle me this: would the Yankees hire a coach that has never coached in the major leagues and had never lead a team to the playoffs in the minor leagues?

Vote in the sun tanned Foghorn leghorn if you want. Skill and experience should be a precedent and even if Hillary is as dodgy as a hot car she has the experience.

a reply to: Thecakeisalie

Experience in corruption and selling out everyone and everything to the highest bidder. No thanks.

a reply to: Southern Guardian

I think someone is picking cheap shots. Just because a man is given lots of money does not mean he will be successful, of course most of us would do a pretty good job of making sure we was somewhat successful but not all people could double, triple and quadruple those numbers. This is what he has done, as another poster wrote. This is debt by companies he owns, not his debt. Obviously a man that is a billionaire would find it hard to ever be in debt. When people have that kind of money, its more like a bill they forgot to pay. Does not mean they cannot pay it.

His assets and his overall wealth is of magnitude that wont always be known by the public, he will have assets no one knows about. You may call that kind of thing wrong or avoiding tax but most billionaires know that things must be kept for a rainy day.