Why don't christians follow the laws of Leviticus and kill homosexuals, adulterers, etc.?

a reply to: DarkvsLight29
How "turned into"?
An OP asking Christians about their use of the Bible is Bible-oriented from the outset.
What else are you expecting from a thread in the Theology forum?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

Nah...Jesus warned his disciples about Paul. Just didn't name names. The book of James is a direct, point by point, rebuttal to Galatians and Romans.

No it's not, James wasn't writing to unbelievers. He wasn't telling people how to be saved, he was instructing saved people how to walk out their faith. James never said works saved a person, he said a saved person should have works, that it's the evidence of a genuine faith.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
What Paul taught in Romans was that ONCE you are saved (by believing in your heart and stating it with your mouth) that Jesus died for your sins...THEN and only then are you discharged from the law. So, answer this question, how could Jesus have not stoned the woman, if HE HADN'T even been crucified yet? The law was still in effect (technically).
For Jesus to have been the perfect, spotless, lamb...who obeyed ALL the law in order to fulfill it, He would have had to have stoned that woman. Yet, He didn't.
The only way around that is to say Jesus was God in the flesh. Yet, He Himself stated that the Father was HIS GOD, AS WELL.

Another way of putting it is to say that Jesus, too, was being guided more by the Spirit than by the "written code".

Sigh....the circular logic of Paulianity is maddening.
OR...Disraeli, Jesus was NOT representing Yahweh at all....but, the MOST HIGH God...the TRUE Father.
But, I understand you can't go there. That would mean the whole Bible isn't inerrant, infallible and the HOLY WORD OF GOD.
Got it.

originally posted by: craig732
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So how about the "until heaven and earth disappear" part. I don't know about heaven, but earth appears to still be here.

Jesus also stated in Matt 24 that Heaven and earth will pass, but His Word will not. The Word of Jesus is the Law.

I will add another reply, Because Christ said let he that is without Sin cast the first stone, non of them could as all have sinned and only Christ had not but he whom was facing them with his stone (and would have been within the Law they were living under to stone them for there sin's) said then as they had not thrown a stone "Then Neither shall I".

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: craig732
The short answer to your question is;
"Now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code [e.g. Leviticus] but in the new life of the Spirit"- Romans ch7 v6.

More than Leviticus, Torah is Law, all 5 books. The Pentateuch is Torah is Law. Paul wants to replace Torah with his teachings!?! Egomaniac is he, Paul.

Law is Torah, so Saul is saying discharged from the Torah,...which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code (more than Leviticus) but in the new life of the Spirit."

If Paul is saying that the Romans were under the Hebrew Torah/Law he is incorrect as James himself had no problems with Romans/Greeks or all non Israelites converting to the Way so long as they don't eat meat sacrificed to idols, don't practice sexual immorality, eat raw/bloody meat, or strangled animals (which Jesus confirms in Apocalypse is detestable) and Paul calls a teaching of the "Spiritually weak." He never even mentioned the letter with the 4 codes of conduct that came from the Spirit through the James and the same pillars/leaders he rants about while pretending to be in the Way. He is required to perform a ritual to prove he wasn't an apostate (and not happy about being subservient to someone as respected and Holy like James).

Saul calls a teaching of Jesus spiritually weak and he hurls the same charge at "Those who were supposed to be pillars."

Gal 2:6-7

And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders [S. Peter, James and John] (What they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)---those leaders contributed nothing to me.

Maybe you doubt it was the Jerusalem leaders James, Peter and John he was speaking of so the next sentence after 2:8 should clarify:

2:9 And when James and Cephas and John, who were acknowledged leaders...

Now he needs their reputation to give him authority so leaves out "supposed" because he is trying to be subtle, but he is certainly still talking about the same 3 pillars/leaders saying they were ''acknowleged" leaders, but doesn't say by him or who even. Subtle snake.

Me:

Don't let the subtleties fool you, both mentions of acknowledged leaders are the same 3 people. Paul misrepresents what went down in Jerusalem because that is not what happened and Peter was the legit Apostle to the nations or "Gentiles." Saul wants that position and is summoned to Jerusalem as his teachings against the Torah were unacceptable and Acts records this.

"Remember the poor'' is not mentioned in Acts it was the 4 codes of conduct about diet and fornication that were the actual events and in 11-13 he tells how he called Peter out for being a "hypocrite" (and the Jews present, including Barnabas), and they side with Peter (Jews) and you can tell Saul is not happy about it. The accusation is suspect because he doesn't record Peter's side of the story, lies several times and even Barnabas sides with Peter.

Chapter 3 begins ''You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you." Apparently Paul was not a very good leader and not preaching the truth because pretty much everyone abandons (All... who are in Asia have turned from me, Jerusalem is in Asia) him and it was Peter who really brought the Way to the Romans instructing one Clement of Rome, a Flavian cousin (Titus?), in all things righteous where as Paul was hated everywhere he went (practically) and a miserable individual, Peter was well received in Rome until he was martyred and very patient and righteous.

Paul's stance on the Torah (Law) is heretical and blasphemous.

Most importantly, it is the opposite of what Jesus taught as "Not one iota" shall pass from it. People might abandon it but it has yet to perish. Paul wanted to be a leader but was terrible at it as he is constantly complaining that people don't believe and hypersensitive about being called out which is a great indicator that he was lying and was called out for it everywhere he went.

We should all realize this by reading the book and not hopping around from book to book, etc. Why respect the nemesis of the Apostolic Church in Jerusalem? I prefer the Righteous pillars and 12 gang and despise Paul, who was never called Apostle and admits his gospel is not from the men trained by Jesus but a "revelation" that he pretty much invented himself before infiltrating the Nazarenes and turning on them later.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Because Jesus fulfilled the Levitical Law. That is why He stopped the Pharisees from stoning the adulteress.

How did He fulfill it? I mean, exactly? He would have had to stone the woman, to fulfill it. Jesus fulfilled NOTHING of the Levititcal law....nothing. He broke every single law that was in place by Yahweh. Name ONE He fulfilled. Just one.

All of the Law was Accomplished/Fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross for our sins. So the answer to your question is in the verse you cited.

No, you still haven't said HOW he fulfilled ALL the law. He would have had to of DONE the law, to fulfill it. So, once again, name any law that He fulfilled. Dying on the cross doesn't count. In order to be the perfect sacrifice, and the spotless lamb, He would have had to have FULFILLED the law. He didn't. He constantly violated it, yet he was sinless. How do you rectify those two things?

Jesus fulfilled the Law by suffering the penalty of our violations against the Law for us. That penalty was death, so Jesus also died for the adulteress too.

originally posted by: enterthestage
More than Leviticus, Torah is Law, all 5 books. The Pentateuch is Torah is Law. Paul wants to replace Torah with his teachings!?! Egomaniac is he, Paul.

No, he wants to replace the Torah with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Precisely what Jesus was doing.
Is that you again, Tommy?

a reply to: DISRAELI

The Torah hasn't been replaced and never was supposed to be.

Paul wanted to replace it with HIS teachings and not the Spirit, come on now it's so obvious.

Maybe you fail to realize that Torah=Law=Torah/Pentateuch and Jesus said not one iota will be changed (replace is change).

So you can disagree but I have everything I need to prove that you are mistaken, in fact I just did.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: DarkvsLight29
How "turned into"?
An OP asking Christians about their use of the Bible is Bible-oriented from the outset.
What else are you expecting from a thread in the Theology forum?

I know, i've already posted my piece.

a reply to: enterthestage

The Torah hasn't been replaced and never was supposed to be.

Then why did Jesus say that His two great commands fulfil the law and prophets? Was He lying, or instituting a new covenant in His blood at that time that the prophets said would one day come?

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: enterthestage
More than Leviticus, Torah is Law, all 5 books. The Pentateuch is Torah is Law. Paul wants to replace Torah with his teachings!?! Egomaniac is he, Paul.

No, he wants to replace the Torah with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Precisely what Jesus was doing.

No, Jesus taught the Torah and even Saul (attempted to) uses it when it suited his "teachings."

The Spirit is the gift that makes these things clear to those who have the Spirit, Baptism gives you the Spirit which makes things clear, guided you to the Truth SO you can properly interpret the scriptures.

Without the Spirit you will not understand the Torah and will want to relegate it to a relic. Romans or Greeks were never under the Hebrew Torah/Law unless they converted before joining the Way. If you were not Hebrew you didn't need the Torah, it didn't apply to you in the first place. Jesus Way was not to replace the Torah he says this much clear as day. He wanted to fulfill by never transgressing, did, and now provides Baptism as the way to be blessed with the Spirit.

Once you're Spirit blessed you understand Torah/Tanakh because of the benefit of Wisdom that comes from Spirit.

Before you have the Spirit you don't have the Wisdom. Paul didn't and it shows.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: enterthestage

The Torah hasn't been replaced and never was supposed to be.

Then why did Jesus say that His two great commands fulfil the law and prophets? Was He lying, or instituting a new covenant in His blood at that time that the prophets said would one day come?

What? Fulfilling it was: not violating it, so he would be sinless. Fulfilling is not abolishing it, it's obeying it 100% so he could be the Messiah. Same reason for why he had to be tempted, so he could be called perfect and be put to death perfectly sinless.

That doesn't render it invalid. He accomplished his goal, never talked about the Torah being no longer applicable.

He said that to explain why his teachings DIDN'T abolish the Torah but simplified them. 2 commandments that fulfill the Torah means we still need to fulfill it. Do those 2 and you are doing Torah.

As the Torah and Prophets/Tanakh are built on Love.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Being guided by the Torah IS being guided by the Spirit. The Spirit is the inspir(it)ation that created the Torah. The Torah and Tanakh are the guidance of the Spirit and inspired by the Spirit.

Jesus came to teach how to interpret it, with the Spirit who gives Wisdom and is of Truth. Not to relegate it to inferior status or usher in a new Torah.

Not one iota...is different, just now we know how to interpret it (when you follow Jesus instructions for attaining the Spirit), we just need to believe and be baptized and the Spirit reveals things you never thought you would have realized and your faith grows.

a reply to: enterthestage

I realize this, but generally when people say that we need to follow the law they don't mean we need to keep the two great commands of Jesus which the law and prophets hang upon, they usually mean that Gentiles are bound by the 613 + 10 laws under the Mosaic Law which is false. Nobody can follow them, not since 70 AD.

Mark 12:30-31New International Version (NIV)

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”


Because they are a human being.

edit on 19-8-2016 by ibenez312 because: Spelling

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: enterthestage

I realize this, but generally when people say that we need to follow the law they don't mean we need to keep the two great commands of Jesus which the law and prophets hang upon, they usually mean that Gentiles are bound by the 613 + 10 laws under the Mosaic Law which is false. Nobody can follow them, not since 70 AD.

I don't follow other people's mistaken interpretations.

I don't care what they mean either (when they say...) because they are mistaken and unaware that when Jesus says Law it means Torah. I am not going to be incorrect because of others being unaware of this.

Further Gentiles is a modern distinction and is a mistranslation from either Greeks, nations or people.

Regardless of what they mean they are factually incorrect.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

You can follow them...by doing the 2 Jesus simplified them into.

Only Jews ever were bound by the 613+10 until Jesus came. Knowing that they had been misinterpreted them (Jews) he taught the correct mode of keeping ALL of the Torah. Not just the 10+613, the whole Torah.

a reply to: enterthestage

Okay, good deal. At least you understand the Mosaic Law isn't to be followed since Jesus.

originally posted by: enterthestage
a reply to: NOTurTypical

You can follow them...by doing the 2 Jesus simplified them into.

You can follow the 10 comandments from Mt. Sinai by following Christ's 2 commands, you cannot follow the Mosaic Law since 70 AD because there isn't a priesthood or a temple to do the sacrifices.