Scientists say they have found a ‘fifth force of nature’

Did not see this posted here today, but this is fascinating, although my understanding of it is not great.

Source

a move that could completely alter our understanding of the universe, a new study confirmed the possible discovery of a fifth fundamental force of nature.

Published by theoretical physicists from the University of California, Irvine, in the journal Physical Review Letters, the study comes a year after a group of experimental nuclear physicists at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences identified a radioactive decay anomaly in the results of their particle acceleration experiments, pointing at the possible discovery of a previously unknown type of subatomic particle

“If true, it’s revolutionary,” said Jonathan Feng, professor of physics and astronomy, in a press release.

“For decades, we’ve known of four fundamental forces: gravitation, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. If confirmed by further experiments, this discovery of a possible fifth force would completely change our understanding of the universe, with consequences for the unification of forces and dark matter.”

So according to this they may have found the new subatomic particle responsible for dark matter or dark energy.

Could somebody with a physics background put all this in laymans terms for us?

~Tenth

They found "t-h-e Force" -the most important force of nature. One that trumps all the others.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

discovery of a possible fifth force

I'm guessing they have a bunch of follow up tests and experiments to conduct in order to confirm this?

Or at least need to repeat a 2nd experiment with the same factors to see if they can re-create the "anomaly" in radioactive decay.

Will be curious what comes of the follow ups to this.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I am sure they will find a way to turn it into a weapon then turn it on some country somewhere.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
Did not see this posted here today, but this is fascinating, although my understanding of it is not great.

Source

a move that could completely alter our understanding of the universe, a new study confirmed the possible discovery of a fifth fundamental force of nature.

Published by theoretical physicists from the University of California, Irvine, in the journal Physical Review Letters, the study comes a year after a group of experimental nuclear physicists at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences identified a radioactive decay anomaly in the results of their particle acceleration experiments, pointing at the possible discovery of a previously unknown type of subatomic particle

“If true, it’s revolutionary,” said Jonathan Feng, professor of physics and astronomy, in a press release.

“For decades, we’ve known of four fundamental forces: gravitation, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. If confirmed by further experiments, this discovery of a possible fifth force would completely change our understanding of the universe, with consequences for the unification of forces and dark matter.”

So according to this they may have found the new subatomic particle responsible for dark matter or dark energy.

Could somebody with a physics background put all this in laymans terms for us?

~Tenth

Well in a nutshell its saying there's a force that acts upon the decay rates of radioactive particles.

Without constant decay rates you can pretty much throw all carbon dating methods out the window... like I've been saying all along.

These were the two take-aways I read:

During the course of their study, the scientists detected a particle 30 times heavier than an electron.

However, according to Feng’s team, instead of the “dark photon” the Hungarians found a “protophobic X boson.” The existence of this particle is what could indicate a fifth force of nature. It is different from the existing electromagnetic forces that act on protons and electrons, interacting only with protons and neutrons, that too at very short distances.

A proton is roughly 18 times heavier than an electron.

So they are saying they possibly found a particle more massive than a proton, which appears to repel protons (and neutrons?) but does not interact with electrons.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu
These were the two take-aways I read:

During the course of their study, the scientists detected a particle 30 times heavier than an electron.

However, according to Feng’s team, instead of the “dark photon” the Hungarians found a “protophobic X boson.” The existence of this particle is what could indicate a fifth force of nature. It is different from the existing electromagnetic forces that act on protons and electrons, interacting only with protons and neutrons, that too at very short distances.

A proton is roughly 18 times heavier than an electron.

So they are saying they possibly found a particle more massive than a proton, which appears to repel protons (and neutrons?) but does not interact with electrons.

And yet it's invisible?!!! A particle that big must manifest itself in some way physically, right?

a reply to: Tempter

A proton is 18 heavier than an electron, but it is 1800 times larger.

If you magnified a helium atom to the size of a football field, the nucleus would be a postage stamp in the center of the 50 yard line. That nucleus is two protons, which are heavier than the single new hypothetical particle.

We don't know how big this new particle is compared to a proton, neither do we know if it binds with its own kind or is an independent agent.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I'm glad that it was discovered 'over-seas' because if it had been in a US facility I'm sure that it would have been declared classified before anybody could hear about it.

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Well... actually that would usually be two protons and two neutrons (for Helium-4 which is the most common and stable isotope of Helium).

a reply to: ismikes
Maybe if it has obvious weaponized implications. But any country might classify it on the basis of national security--US isn't alone on that.

Is interesting. Wish I was smart enough to understand it. You really have to both smart and a book worm to get a grip on all of it. So muhc information is available to us now. but asborbing all of it and then improving on it is at a premium.

originally posted by: ismikes
a reply to: tothetenthpower

I'm glad that it was discovered 'over-seas' because if it had been in a US facility I'm sure that it would have been declared classified before anybody could hear about it.

Why? Scientists are always on the hunt for more funding and nations are always seeking to bolster their scientific credentials. You don't do that by keeping secrets and letting another groups of researchers announce the discovery.

originally posted by: ismikes
a reply to: Teikiatsu

Well... actually that would usually be two protons and two neutrons (for Helium-4 which is the most common and stable isotope of Helium).

I was keeping it simple, but yeah.

Another thing about the 'invisibility' - if it does not interact with electrons it would not easily be noticed by electromagnetism, which is how things at the quantum level are normally detected.

When scientists analyze particle interactions, they do so in a cloud chamber. They can 'see' the movements of particles through the cloud chamber and observe the speed, acceleration, and direction of the particles. They can then mathematically identify the particles and their respective energies from this data.

During one of these tests, they were able to observe a particle that is about 30 times the mass of an electron (5.11 MeV, or 9.11x10^-31 kg). That is an unusual mass for a particle, and is leading to speculation on the proper mathematical description.

That's where the references to dark matter come in. Dark matter is an unknown force observed in the Universe that appears to be acting in conjunction with gravity (as opposed to dark energy which appears to act opposing gravity). We have theoretical models to describe our observations of dark matter, and they are trying to match the observed particles to those mathematical models.

The scientists are pretty excited to give out so many details on something considered purely theoretical at this point. I really don't blame them, though; they just accomplished the dream of every decent physicist who ever lived. They discovered something no one had ever seen before. It's an interesting event, and possibly one of major significance.

TheRedneck

P.S.: A proton is not 18 times the mass of an electron. Its mass is 1.67x10^-27 kg, which is about 1800 times the mass of an electron.

It's amazing with what we find everyday of our understanding of science. Hopefully will lead to the discovery of the worpdrive

originally posted by: hunter189
It's amazing with what we find everyday of our understanding of science. Hopefully will lead to the discovery of the worpdrive

there ain't gonna be no warpdrive unless you can stop time

a reply to: ismikes

"The experimentalists weren't able to claim that it was a new force," Feng said. "They simply saw an excess of events that indicated a new particle, but it was not clear to them whether it was a matter particle or a force-carrying particle."
...
The UCI work demonstrates that instead of being a dark photon, the particle may be a "protophobic X boson." While the normal electric force acts on electrons and protons, this newfound boson interacts only with electrons and neutrons - and at an extremely limited range.

Phys.org, Aug 15, 2016 - Physicists confirm possible discovery of fifth force of nature.

It may have discovered by Hungarian scientists but it was confirmed by UC, Irvine in the US of A. The 'X' just means it is unknown (like a variable in a math equation).

Tothetenthpower, I do not think this is 'dark matter' or 'dark energy'. The guy in the phys.org article says this may be a carrier or messenger between dark matter and ordinary matter. At 30 times heavier than an electron this never before seen particle interacts with matter in a method not previously explained. And although confirmed by reviewing the Hungarian data, it is being studied world wide to confirm the observation. So this may be another, "we thought we had data but it was not confirmed" like the CERN/LHC data bump that disappeared when higher energy levels were used to smash particles together and properly investigated.

The four fundamental forces can be used to explain all known particle interaction. A boson that only interacts with electrons and neutrons cannot be explained using the known four forces. Hence, the headline of "new fifth force" found. The headline should continue, "and not yet confirmed".

originally posted by: TheRedneck
P.S.: A proton is not 18 times the mass of an electron. Its mass is 1.67x10^-27 kg, which is about 1800 times the mass of an electron.

The three quarks in a proton weigh 18X an electron. The remaining 'mass' is the gluon binding energy. I was thinking actual particle size vs density.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I wouldn't rule it out, after all we started with three states of matter but now we have at least five (say hello to plasma and the Bose-Einstein condensate)

I'm not educated enough to know about this fifth force-all I know is that it has been long been speculated that there has been some kind of 'force' whether it be string theory, M theory or gravity loop theory. My question is if we can tap in this fifth force could it provide a great source of energy?

a reply to: tothetenthpower

I'd be very cautious with this 30 times heavier than an electron would have showed up on every collider for the past 50 yrs. I suspect we will find out Hungarian scientists boson with a mass of 16.7 MeV will be equipment error. This range has been check ed and nothing showed up. Thus is why they are saying it's photophobic. It's an excuse as to why it wasn't discovered before and nit a food one. They arw saying this boson is exactly opisit of every other with no reason as to why.there claim in order for there X bosonto have avoided earlier detection it interacts with protons and neutrons in the opposite way that photons do. I think we will find this is equipment error and misinterpretation. Several eastern European physics have been reporting anomalies in nuclear transitions and attributing them to missing bosons for decades. Problem is there results are never replicated.