Bitches and Sad Ladies -- the thinking thread

originally posted by: Profusion

originally posted by: JetBlackStare

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
Bitches and Sad Ladies - The thinking Thread.

if you have a story about a bitchy woman, or a sad lady, please write it and post it.

Yes, because the male-dominated, misogynistic world of the internet needs more of this.

Love your posts, hate this idea.

I had a similar thought when I first saw this thread. Then I thought about it, and I realized that it's just about writing fiction, so it's harmless.

With that said, the two threads on this topic have a unique trainwreck quality. I want to look away, but I can't.

I'm taken aback by the assessment that the title is somehow an invitation to demean women, which is the furthest thing from the motivation or intention, but only now do I see it. Different thought processes and different perspectives;. different thinking patterns, and although my personal thoughts don't gravitate in that direction -- in hindsight, I might have guessed that would be the case, especially in the venue in which I have introduced it.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, the original book was written in the seventies, a time when women were burning their bras, and actively seeking equality, in ways different from today, because the politics today are more directed to specific areas, rather than the "overall" as things were back then. women were more vocal than to day, and there was more of a sisterhood, and a desire to be understood, so in some ways, the original stories were related to the feminist movement. Equality, freedom, struggles, but mostly the inner processes of women as they make daily and long term decisions, as they navigate through their lives. It's about love, loss, children, jobs, marriages and divorces, and assorted liaisons. It was the "I am Woman, Hear me Roar" era.

Perhaps the title is outdated, and the reception would have been better simply as "short stories by and about women", or something more innocuous than the black/white designation as it has been suggested. Apparently the use of the term "bitch" has been taken literally. I should have foreseen that, and I did not.

________________
My personal motivation to introduce a collaborative writing arena was to provide a break from a front page -- with nine out of ten titles being directed to politics, and not always in an interesting way.

I posted the first story, and the woman, Karen, in my mind is both "a bitch" as defined as strong, and a "sad lady", and yet, she is neither. She is simply human, trying to make decisions as to the best way to proceed with her life, as most women do, without intentionally hurting someone, and without setting herself up to be hurt further. She wants both herself, and her husband, to succeed in life, and I felt they found a way that suited them. Not for everybody, but for them, it worked.

So if both threads are trainwrecks, it's through perceptions which are not my own.
It's actually not my first trainwreck, but quite possibly may be my last.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
I'm taken aback by the assessment that the title is somehow an invitation to demean women

Who made that assessment? Nice red herring. I had to think about whether you were using a red herring or a straw man argument here. It can't be a straw man argument because you can't distort my position when it wasn't even stated.

I replied that I had a "similar thought" as another poster. You have no idea what my thought was. You just assumed that I was thinking what is quoted above. Did you even assume that? Was your intention just to create a red herring?

Here's my position about this thread...

I just think it's too negative. Why don't you start a thread like this about how women are like angels?

I'm not criticizing you for starting this thread. I've started a bunch of threads about the negative side of life. Mine were an attempt to understand human psychology.

For me personally, I'm not going to create fiction about something like this. I was just sharing my own personal view of the threads on this topic, nothing more.

a reply to: Profusion

Well aren't you sweet.
I was trying to explain my motivation.

Most of those comments in my response were mostly directly towards me.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Thank you for the compliment. The power of words is incredible, isn't it? I just mentioned women being like angels, and it brought out your angelic side.

One thing I've noticed about this forum is the way that a topic is framed often determines the reaction. If you phrase a topic in a positive light, you almost always have a more successful thread than if you don't. People seem to love being positive around here. Meanwhile, they tend to shun anything negative.

I've always found that to be counterintuitive. I would have expected conspiracy theorists-types to be people who looked at life in a totally objective way, regardless of how ugly it is. My conclusion about that is there are a lot of idealists on this forum, and reality sometimes is at odds with their idealism. They don't want to look at it sometimes.

There's another huge issue that I wrote about in the thread below.

The Self-Censorship Problem

I know from personal experience that being associated with the 'wrong' stances on certain issues can get people in a lot of trouble with their friends. I think everyone can relate to that. There may be a lot of people who want to participate in your threads about "Bitches and Sad Ladies", but they may not be willing to face the consequences when it comes to a possible scolding from their friends. That's happened to me personally many times. And, I completely understand. I have no hard feelings about such things.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Anaana

I have a couple of poems that I think might work with the theme particularly in terms of transistioning between both sad and bitch, back again, then repeat and rinse. I will dig then out and pop back later.

Don't we all transition back and forth? I know I do, and yes, rinse and repeat. Life.
I hope you share something with us, Anaana.

I am not a woman of my word. When I said "later", I hadn't intended to take this long, but I utterly forgot and haven't done the digging out either. Other things...pressing.

I like what you did with the oil rig collapse as analogous to the structural breakdown of the marriage. Nicely done. And the Weimaraner...dogs or bitches? Something I am writing at the moment, part of it is about Rosa Luxemburg, I may have her referred to as the Weimaraner Bitch...and have her destroy them in retort. Of course.



All the best (I shan't at this point embarrass myself by making any further promises that I am unlikely able to keep)

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

I think this observation may help in furthering your writings...

I noticed in relationships mine in the past and those of others, have been almost a direct vent of do unto this one what the last one did to you... even if the person doesnt deserve it, where any slight similar to any of the last gets a passive aggressive explosion of some sort from slashed tires to pooping in the back of their toilet tank...

Of course I can empathize I didnt listen even though I thought I did I didnt... oh I listened but the self rationalization defense shields were up in those days cause pffft Im trying translates to ego as I aint doing a damn thing wrong whats your problem now?

Yeah communication deficiets and baggage constantly rolling around the conveyance to hurl at someone when convienant.

Fortunately I had a very nice patient cat like woman that helped set me on the road to learning listening skills to stop using excuses in self defense and rationalising without any regard to someone else... before then it was like yeah walking in someone elses shoes sounds great but 2 minutes later derpa derpa have to really make an effort to know what that dumb little phrase means I dont mean literally breaking an ankle in 8 inch heels though... but thinking about what youve said to someone as if they said that to you in a mental literal role reversal.

After a while of that you see the egg shells you start wanting to put others walking on before it even exits the mouth... and you bite the tongue and really start changing.

Thankfully Im at the point of love is acceptance no matter what, dangerously Im at the unconditional you could even cheat and it wouldnt phase me stage but on principle sorry see those boots? You know the song and walking all over me wasnt part of the deal, simply because no respect for another means no respect for oneself... go work on you sow oats whatever it is... and say it matter of factly with no anger, jealousy or pain like a switch on then flipped right to off if meet again in the future and its been worked out of their system there may be another chance but trust takes time to see if theyve changed or just feeling needy and know how accepting you are.

Whatever insecure, jealous, or society has said women Ive seen to not do or quit I encourage them to pick back up as it was a little piece of them sometimes a very large piece of them or a dream completely stolen just to please a boy hiding in a mans body or believing the stereotypes society shackles women to certian roles with... oh you used to sing or do stand up poetry read... what happened why is this a used to? Invariably it will be, because of my ex or a combination of them over time.

A man trying to be top rung by standing on her shoulders to not look like the loser he is basically... instead of men are already losers not supporting women here ya go stand where ever you want and Ill cheer and encourage... two way street is nice but rare, from outside influences saying how things should be in some ideal fantasy role nonsense of judgement... if two way street happens theres no end in sight as it is mutually supportive and wholly accepting of each other no matter the rung as no one is seen above or beneath you.

Thats a bit of where I've been maybe it helps you or others see those patterns... if someone tries to mom role me into you cant be this you cant be that you can do this etc. I walk because thats not acceptance thats let me make you into some fantasy ideal instead of loving you for you and supporting where ever it is you want to go in life even if that means growing apart at some point... I'd hope women for their own sakes do the same, however Im sure the quote bitches already do and the sad women know exactly wtf Im talking about having been a rung then got rung out.

Keep going it gets better and better especially when you accept you encourage yourself and others and find someone else with the same respect for you as you have is my advice because thats the expression of love its real and not contrived its always coming as you are wearing inside on the outside no matter what ocassion... thats where that inner glow comes from that allure or je ne se que people cant seem to figure out

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

I'm not sure BBD. I don't doubt the sincerity of your advice in terms of heterosexual interpersonal relationships, but I don't really see it as you stated, as being of "help in furthering your writings". I know that there is encouragement in there but there's also a great deal of presumption, I feel. You know, there is a lot more to women than as partners in heterosexual relationships, there are other antagonisms in our lives that shape and define us, other than our interactions with men, and which bring out our sadness or bitchiness. I would suppose, since LIW stated that her story is fiction that, while it may be a distillation of her own experience, that she was not looking for advice and encouragement that she would one day find love and support, but advice on her writing, and that your advice is really aimed at the character LIW has created...which is I suppose a compliment of LIW's writing that you found it so believeable...but, see what I mean? Shouldn't the art be what is under critique not the artist (unless as a recognition of inexperience or narrowness of experience possibly?).

Perhaps I misunderstood, your post however did read to me as relationship advice, not writing tips.

a reply to: Anaana

Well, it's coming from just as narrow as a path as everyone else... the one I have walked cannot and will not every be the same as anyone else, yet there will be parallels whether seeking to find truth of the trope one is living or a trope to frame up for fiction... it's just the names and places change to protect the innocent.

I have given every woman a chance that has had the balls to wrestle me down Sadie Hawkins style except when in a realtionship of course... I'm one of those don't approach fellows, as I find it personally haughty and creepy for men to be on the prowl women know who and what they like... and well most initial intrest men have is sexual based. Yes I am being general with that as it is a very wide spread and known stereotype and it wouldn't be played so much if there were equality. I prefer women friends because I hate the guy talk that invariably occurs from every level of man I have ever incountered in my life from high ranking church members that are supposed to be pious and have tamed that zipper snake right on down the line.

I'm more interested in a womans mind than what can be removed from her body, I suppose the nice guy or wolf in sheeps clothing trope goes on too especially with the politics of today in the "art" of getting women instead of being honest.

I didn't actually read the previous posts to know the story was fiction; I just saw that the poster whom I had addressed said they were interested in expanding their writting... and I don't mind telling personal stories especially if they help someone in some way. It was just experience a small fragment of what can be experienced, obviously since you see it differently, which is a good thing it means we could learn from each other by communicating. Since I don't assume I choose who is interested in me it has been all types of women... from cheaters, addicts, models, actresses, teachers in profession as well as all of them teachers in life even the ones that could have made me into a No Ma'm Al Bundy sort as women haters are everywhere but it's just from pain, the same way men haters are everywhere for the same reason.

I have homosexual/Bi/Trans friends quite a few actually, sorry to speak from my own preference of hetero but I have no personal experience otherwise... second hand is hear say not fair when speaking of what I know to speak in 3rd person of what I don't... as I can't garuntee the accuracy or truth to such a thing, that would be reaching and speculative which is often prone to assumptions which is speaking from experience to what someone hasn't actually experienced but have been told or have heard basically rote learning... speaking from the heart does not do such a thing, it speaks directly to one person yet anyone listening in or reading in this case might find some of my ramble useful in their own personal life if not no worries, but that's the hope of the intent behind posting anything of a personal nature made public. It's past gone not me anymore just an experience so why not share such things if something in it might actually help someone?

I understand the OP's intent was on social commentary and of course the more view points the OP sees from all sides? The more broad that social commentary is going to be especially when people are honest about their experiences... to be even more accurate I fall into the bitch but used to be a sad lady category I'm proud of the stripes I have bore as they were well worth the lessons I learned in paying for them in evolving growing becoming stronger and a better human being for it.

I hope you have a lovely day and sorry to forget labels from time to time, I don't live by any people give me or have given me so it sometimes becomes a blind spot and any I carry I have chosen, yet in choosing such labels it draws a line, creates a stigma, a snap judgement in anyone else by the stereotype of that label... no offence was meant from my hetero perspective as it's the only one I have being me.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Um, your biographical information is interesting, and is welcome, of course. I appreciate your honesty.

Short of my fondness for weimaraners and terriers, and having lived in Colorado as a younger woman, the story is fiction.
My own ex-husband is a University Professor, and my current SO is an attorney. The second story I've written is about a Nun. I am not a nun, nor have I ever been, but I can play one in a story of fiction. See how that goes?

People are not perfect. People experience the same scenarios in different ways, and react to them differently. I personally, in the case of Karen, would have divorced "him" upon arriving back in the states. The marriage was over, and she knew it. I would find if difficult to live with such loose ends. She was moving forward somewhat, but not wholly. I find that sad.

If one writes a story in which everyone does what is wise, honest, in everyone's best interest and they all live happily ever after, then one has written a fairy tale.

Anyway, thank you at least, for reading the story.

a reply to: Anaana

Hi! Thank you for making the story sound more interesting than is actually is!

I've been distracted lately, and busy too. It's always a good thing to see a post from you though, Anaana.

Ah but 'weimaraner bitch" doesn't sound so foreboding to me. I think she would put her head and your knee and take a nap. lol. Of course, in threatening situations, they definitely know what to do!

Waiting, waiting......

originally posted by: Anaana
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

I'm not sure BBD. I don't doubt the sincerity of your advice in terms of heterosexual interpersonal relationships, but I don't really see it as you stated, as being of "help in furthering your writings". I know that there is encouragement in there but there's also a great deal of presumption, I feel. You know, there is a lot more to women than as partners in heterosexual relationships, there are other antagonisms in our lives that shape and define us, other than our interactions with men, and which bring out our sadness or bitchiness. I would suppose, since LIW stated that her story is fiction that, while it may be a distillation of her own experience, that she was not looking for advice and encouragement that she would one day find love and support, but advice on her writing, and that your advice is really aimed at the character LIW has created...which is I suppose a compliment of LIW's writing that you found it so believeable...but, see what I mean? Shouldn't the art be what is under critique not the artist (unless as a recognition of inexperience or narrowness of experience possibly?).

Perhaps I misunderstood, your post however did read to me as relationship advice, not writing tips.

Thank you.

a reply to: Profusion

I just think it's too negative. Why don't you start a thread like this about how women are like angels?

Somehow "Bitches, Sad Ladies, and Angels" just doesn't work for me.

Perhaps people can take an angelic role at times, both men and women, and at times I am able to execute acts of kindnesses, nurturing, and generosity, as all women do, but I never consider myself an angel. So maybe it is my own personal perception, having clearly been both a bitch and sad; but never what I think of as an angel.

I remarked in an earlier post that I was thinking about writing a story about a Nun. But the nun is filled with angst and insecurities. The nun is not an angel, although she perhaps would like to be.

You don't like the idea. Gotcha. Maybe you live in a world where people are all angels. I don't.

As for everything else you have said, I'm sorry you have misunderstood. And clearly you have.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

I personally, in the case of Karen, would have divorced "him" upon arriving back in the states. The marriage was over, and she knew it. I would find if difficult to live with such loose ends. She was moving forward somewhat, but not wholly. I find that sad.

If one writes a story in which everyone does what is wise, honest, in everyone's best interest and they all live happily ever after, then one has written a fairy tale.

The only way "happily ever after" works is if the World ends the next day.

There are always loose ends. Just yesterday my ex of 26 years and I were at the same birthday party. She started talking about her son.
---------------------------------------
"You were there at the hospital even." she said.

"I carried him first."

"----- wasn't even there," she said, "I guess he was too busy or something."

"Actually," I replied, "He didn't want to mess up the insurance fraud I was pulling to pay for it."

"What? We were still legally married."

"No, and COBRA was already expired too."

"Hmn," she responded, "I never really thought about it. I just knew I never got a bill."

The son mentioned is quite a talented musician and stage actor. I would risk criminal prosecution again if necessary.
-----------------------------
Disclaimer: For legal reasons, the above statements will be considered fiction. No confession is intended.

Loose ends aren't necessarily a bad thing, they simply are.

ETA

And when the heck is someone else going to post a story?

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Im aware of how the fiction of placing yourself in other peoples shoes goes But when speaking from real experience as I dont walk around being fake and dishonest playing some character like it's halloween everyday when I share stuff from my life it's in the section over yonder away from fiction as far as i can get from it... not that make believe isn't fun it is at once the coolest thing and yet the lamest thing humanity has going for it... but thats only in the not being able to separate the two and people start fighting and dying over it.

Impossible to live for everyone and have a happly ever after, like in your story and in real life it's difficult for two people to do that it seems either from internal struggles with communication of needs as unspoken expectations or an unwillingness to be self effacing and bend to anothers will even if you have sworn that as a partnership now thats something truley sad... so many people want so many different things like you said. Keeping focus on where both want to head and getting each other there even though there will be separate goals in that they both always arrive together on them... that's the ideal at least, like hey I'll knock out the dishes if you get the floor sort of thing... if youre always getting the dishes and floor knocking the bills out etc while the other person just stares at you after awhile it's like um the sex better not stop or I'm out otherwise youre just living with a lazy roomate that just hangs out that may or may not have secretly taken a vow of chastity and expects the same of you(another little slice of life past)

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Sorry LIW, I'm having an extraordinarily rough few weeks and haven't been able to get online to do much other than essential bills and banking, but I have dug out some old note books. Seven or eight years old...

Truth, Dare, Kiss, Command or Promise?

She reaches inside her bag.
Rumaging around, she thinks –
“There is no hope for me, not now.
I’m past it. Irredeemable. Inconscionable.”

She ventures deeper, eluded in her quest.
Glancing round with hungry eyes on empty faces –
“I need no pity. I have no remorse.
I am beyond it.”

And she stifles a laugh.

“I want to be imprisoned in a tiny cell.
Hands tied, feet bound and of course...”
She paused, purely for effect.
“...mouth gagged. I accept nothing less.”

She coughs, throat clearing, phlegm venting.

It isn’t there. Exasperated, shoulders slump -
“I am entombed in a bound stillness.
Enveloped in corrogated cardboard defences.
Wretched with the stench of defeat”

A sigh lurches forth and emits itself tiredly.
“I want to breathe air unsullied by this tepid indifference.
Without the endless illumination of dripping disparity.
I want my flag flown.”

She slips away. Despondently unresponding.
Towards home.

....

I think she's a sad-bitch, rather than one or the other. It was, in part, inspired by a woman I met, many years ago, just sheltering from the rain in a shop doorway. She proceeded, in those five or ten minutes to tell me how often she thought about killing her husband and why. She was this sparrow-like little old lady, tight white curly perm, little knitted hat, back permanently bent from scrubbing, leaning over her shopping bags. She stepped beside me, spilled her beans, and walked away.

a reply to: Anaana

“I want to be imprisoned in a tiny cell.
Hands tied, feet bound and of course...”
She paused, purely for effect.
“...mouth gagged. I accept nothing less.”

Only someone that has been understand extreme control to the point where others intent was to hold them back out of their own fear even if she didn't have any seems to have been and still is the struggle despite any independence won in the victory of time when those controlling were out of reach... but the impact of that controlling is still rippling in effect being a detriment to her survival...

Of course swallowing ones pride in having independence to become dependent to get help becomes that very phlegm spit out as a curse upon the total of that experience in having given it up in the past.

Perish the thought... and hope for equality promised long ago? Or seek it in vengeance to future promises left unkept?

Having been there independence can be the most difficult thing fought for and having once won it; trying to understand why no one wants to let it go seems to be the bullet that kills us all, especially when it tries to control one not oneself and have acceptance in equality which is actually the true expression of love, and everything else is just an S&M lifestyle.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Not a bad analysis. I liked it. You picked up elements of her and me, where we meet and differ.

Her hatred, for her husband, was palpable. It dripped off every syllable. Completely visceral, and yet, she described a life of absolute self-control, she never spoke to him. When she was there, she claimed to not even acknowledge his existence, as he sat, for most of the day, similarly silent, in the same chair. He had left her, after a decade or two of marriage for a younger woman. Ran off into the sunset. She had adapted, raised their two sons, worked herself to the bone to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table. Years passed, her sons grown and working, she finally could relax a little.

Then, the younger woman chucked him out. So he came "home". She worked all the hours god sent just to get out of the house, her home, the one she had worked so hard to build was her prison. When she reached mandatory retirement age, she had no choice but to give up work. On the day that I met her she was doing what she always had done since being forced to stop work, walking around, filling time, finding places to take a moments rest. Anything but go "home". She was an angry old bitter woman, but most of all she was simply tired of the pretense and was conditioned to believe that "till death do us part" was to be taken literally. That same conditioning taught her that "thou shalt not kill". She was caught in this kind of suspended animation of social convention, and even though she had aged into a world where she was entitled to assert her independence legally she was not equipped with the skills to navigate that world which had previously excluded her.

Thanks for taking the time.

Best.

a reply to: Anaana

Yes doing her duty was the honorable thing even though that 3RD little boy's sh!t left a bad taste in her mouth so much so opening it would have led to more stink and chaos in the peace she was trying to accomplish... into a workaholic for as much vacation time out of hell as possible.

When there is nothing good to say about something, mow the lawn. This is what I learned from a case of being in hell, I was engaged to a sad lady being honest with my history of abuse... she admittedly was trying to bitch any button she could find having grown up in a similar household of; constant arguing and abuse of course she was too young to recall much of it, as her father died at a young age... that she didn't really hold ANY of the hate for the abuser that her sister and mother knew. So she would try to illicit the same thing that she had learned about him out of the men that she dated... being very particular and exacting trying to start fights and wanting to recreate or relive in the role of her mother and in her own words "Because I just want my daddy." her grieving was seeking out to become a re-creationist by trying to re-incarnate him in others so they could play his role. Well, not being someone that likes arguing nor wants to and seeks to bring happiness... the fight was her pushing every possible button having a degree that knew how to do so... and I dodged every missile possible in home maintenance and repair. Of course, this is something I had done simply out of love when I was married the first time in my mid-20s and would continue to do so as that's what makes a house a home.

When the pond of stillness calls for a rock it doesn't throw it to make ripples, when an ocean calls for a rock it bears the storm.

So I can see why she bit half her tongue off, one half for peace and one to still have some flavor to life because it still goes on even though sweetness found at the tip was no longer present and left only a bitter taste in her mouth on both sides.

But yes, filing for divorce during his absence wouldn't have taken a degree in law just food off the table, and disturbed the two still ponds causing the same ripples the ocean inside her was building into as she held back the storm.

You are quite welcome...

My apologies for not adding to the thread sooner

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Ahh you see, now you're seeing much more than I put there.



I don't spend a great deal of time delving into my own past. I reached a point, took responsibility for what I needed to, addressed that in myself, and moved on from thinking that who I am is about anyone else but me. That's what being a "grown up" is. I took a few kickings to get to that place, many hard lessons, and I am sure many more to come, along with the accompanying need for change and adaptation. W Ross Ashby said that, "The adult brain is the wreckage left by the experiences of childhood," and "The educated brain is the wreckage left after the experiences of training." Once you've gazed at your navel for long enough, untangled the mess, you still have to break your brain in order to reset, but if you don't do the untangling before it breaks, you might not reset quite so easily, or at all.

I like Ashby's work a great deal, his journals are a mine of information.

www.rossashby.info...

His notes on "Nirvanaophilia" are also pertinent to the context of the cafe. I may pass some of it on there when I feel more chatty.

There was a woman named Ophelia who I've known my entire life. She was a poor, wretched step-daughter of her mother's new marriage. Her younger step-brother received golden treatment from his parents, but the same was not attributed to her, and sure enough began to see domestic violence at a young age. Her mother looked the other way.

Seems bi polar. The first I remember, I was3/4 years old when she began to treat me like the family members who abused her. She would vent out her frustrations on me. She had to deal with driving me to and from school, to the daycare, bills, taxes, putting food on the table, laundry. When she becomes argumentative, she is in survival mode.

She hates my father like the Colombian Cartel hates pigs. Its fierce. The littlest # would make her go into panic mode and extreme anger. She was one the of the best things that ever happened to me. When I reached 12 I told her I don't love her anymore because she was being clingy and I was trying to be mature. Well that backfired. During my teenage life we were like gasoline and fire. She would call me things like sick and freak.

Nowadays I feel terrible. I just want the best for her but that's not going to be possible. I'm so sorry for all the times I mistreated her. She is a miracle and I wouldn't be here without her.