The lie that willpower is not enough

a reply to: justbe

Well, of course my will cant stop a loved one from dying of cancer. It has to be their will. I cant make anybody else do anything. We all have our own will, our own free will.

Lots of diseases are overcome with will and positive thinking (and trust and faith).

Have you thought this idea through? People can be struck down with terminal illnesses when they're in the prime of their life and with young children. You're saying they choose not to live. Or you're saying they don't love their families enough to want to survive. You're saying they don't try hard enough.

On a wider scale, your premise infers that it's the fault of the terminally ill for dying. There will come a point in your life when you will have to accept that willpower only goes so far. The alternative is to watch a loved one dying and secretly resent them for their lack of effort.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: justbe

Well, of course my will cant stop a loved one from dying of cancer. It has to be their will. I cant make anybody else do anything. We all have our own will, our own free will.

Lots of diseases are overcome with will and positive thinking (and trust and faith).

Have you thought this idea through? People can be struck down with terminal illnesses when they're in the prime of their life and with young children. You're saying they choose not to live. Or you're saying they don't love their families enough to want to survive. You're saying they don't try hard enough.

On a wider scale, your premise infers that it's the fault of the terminally ill for dying. There will come a point in your life when you will have to accept that willpower only goes so far. The alternative is to watch a loved one dying and secretly resent them for their lack of effort.

Great answer, Kandinsky.
Justbe: I have no wish to be disrespectful to you, but do you have any idea what lack of compassion that displays to terminally ill, sick and genetically disabled people? In effect, you are blaming them for their condition because of their lack of will to conquer their affliction.

Frankly, this attitude frightens the hell out of me. And I know many folks think this way.
How far does this will thing go, anyway? If you're raped or murdered, was that your lack of will?
Will is a state of mind that can get you through many situations and help you to conquer certain circumstances and preserve your personal integrity. But as already stated by those putting it much better than I, this can only carry you so far. Surely investing too much in this idea of will can cause you to lose your humanity and compassion, taken to that extreme which you've described?
tetra

a reply to: Kandinsky

No, I would never ever say, "they dont try hard enough". If you all knew me, you would know I am a very compassionate and loving person. And Im just trying to express myself objectively here and not emotionally.

I was agreeing with the OP and I do believe we are in fully in charge of our own lives and all our choices are up to us.
But I guess I need to add the explanation (in a nutshell), that I believe in an inner being, a higher mind, and when it comes to issues like bad diseases or passing on (we never really "die"), I believe that is still our own free will, but from a higher mind perspective. I believe, we are here to have certain experiences, to learn and grow and expand and to teach each other about love and compassion.
And especially in difficult situations, we have the biggest opportunities to learn about unconditional love and compassion.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese


Genetics go a long way, but they are not the end all be all. You can think of genetics as the underlying hardware, and will power having more to do with the software which runs on top of the hardware. We can tweak the code, but still there are inherent, hard limitations that will power does nothing for.

Oh, I like that metaphore! And I agree. But maybe tweaking the code is not necessary, maybe it's just about not activating it.

a reply to: Bluesma

Wow, you got all my respect for raising her! And for helping her to accomplish so much by your description. And yes, maybe she has gone as far as she can and maybe she hasnt. I cant say anything else to this, it seems a very personal subject and I cant relate.
But does she realize how much she has accomplished? And how proud she should be and focus on what she can do instead of what she cant? She should give herself a big pat on her shoulder every morning, she sure sounds like a very amazing person to me!

a reply to: justbe

I just used it as an example- my point is not about her- it is about the belief that one has no limits that I am referring to.

In very specific and temporary circumstances (right before a competative event, for example) it can be a an uplifting and motivating mantra,

But as a belief in the nature of reality, over long periods of time, it can be highly detrimental.

It can be a source fo stress, which is bad for both mind and body. It causes some societal problems, like those we see in the US today, in areas such as healthcare.

A sense of personal power is comforting and pleasurable; it is very efficient at making a person not focus on signs of potential danger or threat. It soothes our sense of self- preservation. This is why it is a sense that cults, gurus, and governments like to provoke it and nurture it. When you believe you have so much power, you smile happily and no longer care what the other hand is doing.

How many people have you known that lived exemplary lives, and somehow still got cancer?
I've known a few. Recently a second cousin, one of four siblings, suddenly collapsed and died while out running of a heart attack. Heart problems, high cholestrol, were a family legacy and they all were on medication for that. But he was the only one that ate a strict and healthy diet, ran marathons, exercised daily, did not smoke or drink alcohol. The other siblings all eat crap, smoke, drink and never move their butts.
So why him???? If we are so powerful over our lives???

According to the American belief, it is his fault. He must have done something to cause this. So far we haven't been able to find it, but it must be so, because that is our belief about reality, and we must find some way to abolish the possibility that

humans need each other

The lie is the magical thinking , the "I believe I can fly" thing which is very useful for making you work harder and demand less, and keeps you from bonding together as a collective and becoming a formidable force.

This is not about my sister, nor my second cousin- I use examples only to illustrate principles in down to earth terms.

reply to: redhorse

How much I willed to triumph over that addiction (and I willed it incessantly) did not matter, I couldn't shake it.

You couldn’t shake it THEN, but it was your WILL that set that boat afloat

It is our WILL that creates our reality, at that time, you created the circumstances that have lead to your current situation.

Very well done

WILL seems to work just fine to me

a reply to: Bluesma

The lie is the magical thinking , the "I believe I can fly" thing which is very useful for making you work harder and demand less, and keeps you from bonding together as a collective and becoming a formidable force.

You seem to have that all twisted, It is only the magical thinking that works.

The “I believe I can fly”attitude, breaks you free from your self imposed restraints and limitations. There is not one great achievement acted out by anyone, that wasn’t born from a unshakeable belief that they could achieve it and possess the will to see it through.

and keeps you from bonding together as a collective and becoming a formidable force.

Well that would be the BORG, and captain Kirk didn’t like the BORG too much lol

humans need each other

Indeed we do, we must remain strong minded wilful people who can work to together as individuals and synergistically in our relentless fight against the borg.

Resistance is futile, but then again, so is hard nosed pragmatism

K

originally posted by: kennyb72
a reply to: Bluesma
You seem to have that all twisted, It is only the magical thinking that works.

I guess you mean "I disagree"? That is surely your right.
As I wrote,


In very specific and temporary circumstances (right before a competitive event, for example) it can be a an uplifting and motivating mantra,

The “I believe I can fly”attitude, breaks you free from your self imposed restraints and limitations.

Agreed. Key word "self imposed". The fact I point out is that this belief is limited to self imposed limitations, not biological ones, not ones that exist in the environment.
Believing that I can walk through walls will NOT allow me to do so.

Well that would be the BORG, and captain Kirk didn’t like the BORG too much lol

Not sure of your point there... are you trying to say you are a follower of that propaganda, that people are more honorable if they refuse solidarity with other members of their society or community?
Fine. You have that right. I obviously do not feel the same (anymore- I got out of that country and escaped the brainwashing)


All powerful Gods do not need others; they are self sufficient, and can only blame themselves for any undesirable things that happen in their lives.

a reply to: dreamlotus1111

all i ever hear is that people cannot rely on willpower alone to overcome issues there are facing… that powers beyond your control whether your subconscious/habits/ addictions, brain, or any other factors are controlling you.

i think this is the biggest effing lie out there.

absolutely correct, i'm living proof that you don't need to have medication ,interventions, rehabilitation or any of the crap they push in order to break habits and addictions.

i have been clean and sober for 20 years now, didn't have any help just put it down. now was i motivated to do so yes, face jail time if caught a third time, for DUI, all my other extra curricular activates also had to stop in order for the drinking to stop. they went hand in hand, i didn't do one without doing one the others . in order not to drink, i had to put those down.

i tried the AA and the NA for more than one substance. thing, all that did was, make me want to drink and use more. listening to all the little whinny people in there spilling their guts, talking about how bad sh@@ was and how they needed the help of others to help them stop. first thing i did when i left a meeting, buy a six pack, and fire up a left hander and get away from that sh@@.

was there sacrifice? yes there sure was, i had to quit going to slippery places, and hanging out with all but one of my friends, he was the only one non using one. took twelve years for the want to urge left. had to retrain all my habits, the way i went to work, the way i went to bed, you name it i had to do it differently in order to lose the urge to want to.

did i slip? yes i did, but not whole hog. it was about 7 years ago i was helping my ex brother in law rebuild/remodel his house after a fire. he asked me if i wanted a beer( he was a a@@hole that way) and then preceded to fire one up, i said sure but i shouldn't. i took a couple of swallows of the beer, it was nasty, took one hit and hack my lungs out. put the beer down, and passed on the other,didn't even catch a buzz.

so all that crap on tv and any other source that says you can't do it on your own is BS. you got to really want to before it can happen. ask anyone who knows/knew me, me i was a full blown junkie and problem drinker and it can be done.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

Wow! Real good on you! A thousand thumbs up!

originally posted by: Bluesma

Agreed. Key word "self imposed". The fact I point out is that this belief is limited to self imposed limitations, not biological ones, not ones that exist in the environment.
Believing that I can walk through walls will NOT allow me to do so.

I believe that all limitations are self imposed, including the biological ones. But those were choices we made before we were born into our present bodies. There are lots of lessons to be learned when dealing with certain disabilities.
Actually, if you could truly believe that you can walk thru walls, you could. But you would have to be able to surpass a belief thats not only in your consciousness, but also in the collective consciousness of all humans and thats not as easy as it sounds.
But then again, why would you even want to? We are here because we choose to experience the physical world and experience these restrains and limitations, to then rediscover our own free will and learn to overcome these limitations.

originally posted by: Bluesma

All powerful Gods do not need others; they are self sufficient, and can only blame themselves for any undesirable things that happen in their lives.

Who else do you want to blame then? I think, that is the point the OP was trying to make.
I wouldnt even call it blame. I think its just about everybody taking responsibility for their own actions (and the thinking that preceded the action).

a reply to: Bluesma

Not sure of your point there... are you trying to say you are a follower of that propaganda, that people are more honorable if they refuse solidarity with other members of their society or community?
Fine. You have that right. I obviously do not feel the same (anymore- I got out of that country and escaped the brainwashing)

That seems to be an odd way of looking at it, If anything, I am defending individuality, over collectivism. I am afraid the brainwashing is predominantly collectivism. Individuality appears to be on the ebb due to political and social manipulation. Your individuality is the greatest gift you possess, so don't allow yourself to be brainwashed into thinking you have no power.

Individuals, working together to achieve an outcome, is the desirable path. Solidarity does not exclusively belong to a collectivist philosophy. Collectivism requires you to surrender your own individual free will to that of the hive, or rather, those that control the hive. Screw that! lol

I can see now, that any disagreement we have, is entirely to do with our different perspectives on reality, and since reality is the focal point of our conscious thought, then, we all have the ability to change our conscious thought to be more in alignment with our desires.

I have lived many lives before (no, I can’t prove that to you), as have, every one of us. Sometimes we are born with strong biological forms and sometimes in genetically weak or injured or damaged forms. We have all had these experiences ourselves, those of us who feel the most empathy, do so because, at a deep level, we really know what that experience feels like.

My interactions and experiences have all bought expansion, regardless of wether that life was particularly blessed with good physical appearance, strength of body or intellect. Every life brings with it, its peaks and troughs of joy and pain, Down Syndrome created some of the happiest people I know, They are love magnets that transform the lives of peoples who come into contact with them.

Our interactions with disabled, physically weak or profoundly injured people is also expansion, that is of love and compassion … see how that works, the whole experience is a symbiosis,the afflicted experience humility while those around experience compassion. When you understand that we are spirit having a human experience, then you get to see things from this alternative perspective.

Believing that I can walk through walls will NOT allow me to do so.

Why would you want to walk through a wall, when your intellect can inform your will to open the door, lol

The strength of our will is not yet capable of moving matter around with thought alone, or forcing the atoms of a wall to yield, at least not within the confines of this physical dimension, that all changes though when we take control over our subtle bodies. People who astral travel do that all the time.

All powerful Gods do not need others; they are self sufficient, and can only blame themselves for any undesirable things that happen in their lives.

Ultimately, it is love that binds us all together, it is my wish that unity of spirit prevails. That does not require you to surrender the individuality that you have developed from the moment you entered into the human kingdom.

Agreed. Key word "self imposed". The fact I point out is that this belief is limited to self imposed limitations, not biological ones, not ones that exist in the environment.

Our biological weaknesses can be the wellhead of our spiritual strength, the more profound our experience, the more valuable that life is.

I read some posts in this thread, that suggest there are others on these boards, who share similar views to myself. It is not callous or unkind to suggest, that those of us currently experiencing physical difficulties would benefit, from exercising the strength of their willpower to overcome their individual obstacles, Stephen hawking comes to mind, along with thousands of disabled people who have achieved extraordinary feats, I couldn’t paint a masterpiece with my toes or compose a concerto when I was deaf, but people do.

There are people who are experiencing a total incapacity to do any physical activity, they are the ones that require the greatest commitment of love and sacrifice from those who take care of them. those people would wither and die if it where not for love. Our experiences shape who we are, and who we are exists forever.

Along with expansion of consciousness comes our ability to manifest our own reality in the way we want it. This explains why some people breeze through life while others struggle.

Put simply: Your Will is responsible for everything that occurs in your life, even the bad things. Expansion of consciousness allows you to manifest your own reality and to take control over your own circumstances.

originally posted by: kennyb72
a reply to: Bluesma


You seem to have that all twisted, It is only the magical thinking that works.

The “I believe I can fly”attitude, breaks you free from your self imposed restraints and limitations. There is not one great achievement acted out by anyone, that wasn’t born from a unshakeable belief that they could achieve it and possess the will to see it through.

I'm pretty sure she has it right on. You're correct that in order for someone to achieve greatness they have to push beyond perceived limitations from average minds, but context is needed here.

We're dealing with people in this thread who seriously seem to believe they can will away cancer. That's a level of absurd that brought about the "I believe I can fly" response. In this context, she is totally correct.

Oh so sorry, I bothered to read the rest of your response. You just as, if not more so insane. No point in trying to reason with you. Carry on.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

We're dealing with people in this thread who seriously seem to believe they can will away cancer. That's a level of absurd that brought about the "I believe I can fly" response. In this context, she is totally correct.

And you are totally incorrect. If you are so sure of that, then please explain to me the phenomena of the placebo effect

Current scientific research

More

Not everyone is capable of destroying cancer with will power, but there are many who do,If they can do it and science acknowledges they did it, I don't see why you have any doubt that we affect our physiology through the power of our thought.

Absurd

Absurd 2

Absurd 3

These are just a few examples of many, if you cared to research.

Mind and body are intrinsically connected, you are, or become, what you think you are

Oh so sorry, I bothered to read the rest of your response. You just as, if not more so insane. No point in trying to reason with you. Carry on.

lol

originally posted by: justbe

I believe that all limitations are self imposed, including the biological ones. But those were choices we made before we were born into our present bodies. There are lots of lessons to be learned when dealing with certain disabilities.

So here we run into the problem of "self" and "will".
What are they?

Is the "will" of the "self" the consciously aware choices you make now,

Or those choices that a "soul" or "Higher Self" made much earlier, that is subconscious now?

If you made the choice to have walls around your body which you cannot pass through,
then perhaps you also made the choice to have a drug addiction, or a physical or mental handicap, which you cannot overcome without aid?
(perhaps even with the intent of teaching the consciously aware ego to open to others ....)

Then what? It is a battle between the Higher Self and the lower ego?
Which one gets to win the claim of being "the Self"?
It's not all black and white. Walk lightly, think lightly, listen to both.

originally posted by: kennyb72
a reply to: Bluesma


That seems to be an odd way of looking at it, If anything, I am defending individuality, over collectivism. I am afraid the brainwashing is predominantly collectivism. Individuality appears to be on the ebb due to political and social manipulation. Your individuality is the greatest gift you possess, so don't allow yourself to be brainwashed into thinking you have no power.

I disagree. I grew up in America, where individuality is valued highly, and collectivism is devalued completely. The country was founded upon this value. Your statements are reflective of those engineered and fed to the American during the Cold War.
The fact is, we live in a physical and material reality, which has laws of physics we cannot detour. The idea that one human can be as powerful as a huge entity made of thousands, and of much large weaponry and infrastructure, is a myth.
But that giant entity (your government) profits greatly from you believing that.

"Make sure you all stay separated and do not help each other", is the propaganda that is still sent out to the masses in the USA through the media and government.

I found that outside the USA, there is more variation, less polarized view of individual and collective power.
Of course, there are countries which go to the other extreme and devalue individual power completely, and those also, I reject. But in the middle there are countries which consider that it is not a black and white question- life needs both to thrive.
A measure of independence as well as inter-dependance, applied or focused upon in the moment as needed.

I always feel drawn to expressions lacking balance, to drop in a bit of what is lacking, that is what I have done here.
I'll leave you to your polarized view now- perhaps it is what is right for you at the moment.

a reply to: Bluesma

I am self, a part of me is here in my physical body and the greater part of me is my higher self. Me, as the person here, has free will. Free will is so free, that it gets to choose any experience, positive or negative. My higher self is pure positive energy and unconditional Love and is always connected to me. It is so unconditionally loving, that it even lets me choose negative things.

It is more natural for us to choose Love any time over anything bad. But sometimes, we distance ourselves from our higher being, and then we cant feel the Love and the connection and then we do silly things. And we even know this, because we dont feel so good then.
We create with our thoughts, they manifest in our circumstances, our environment and they also manifest in our bodies.

It is not about a battle or winning anything. When you are connected to your higher self, you feel good and loving and free, which also manifests around you. When you are not so connected, you dont feel so good and it will reflect in your life. And I dont mean in some big events in life, but in every day life, moment by moment really.

The higher self is always shining the light for you, always loving you. But we are here to learn and we do have the choice and our own free will to choose negative experiences, coz ultimately, they teach us about Love. Loving ourselves and loving others, unconditionally.

There is quite a bit more to this, but somehow I have the feeling its a bit futile to write all this coz your mind seems to be made up. From what I gather from your posts, you do believe in will power but only up to a certain limit. If thats your belief, than that is your self imposed limitation and your willpower wont be able to reach further then that. And thats fine really. Everybody needs to discover their own path in their own time.

To get back on topic: Yes, willpower is enough. An individual with true will power can achieve anything and people getting together and using their willpower collectively is so powerful, it would literally change the world we live in.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie

thank you for your post that is incredibly awesome

please anyone else share instances of overcoming using willpower alone i think we need more people showing how you CAN overcome certain situations!