The Indus Valley civilisation may be even older than initially thought

originally posted by: Byrd
The article, as I keep pointing out, links to a paper that supposedly shows this.

BUT when you read the paper (click the link for the original paper) it says the pre-Harappan cultural groups date 50 8000 BC - which is perfectly consistent with what we know.

The Harappans are a Bronze Age people, 6,000 years later.

But when you read the paper, it also says this:

Archaeological chronologies of Harappan (Indus) civilization in South Asia2,16,19 are given in SI. Conventionally the Harappan cultural levels have been classified into 1) an Early Ravi Phase (~5.7–4.8 ka BP), 2) Transitional Kot Diji phase (~4.8–4.6 ka BP), 3) Mature phase (~4.6–3.9 ka BP) and 4) Late declining (painted Grey Ware) phase (3.9–3.3 ka BP13,19,20). This chronology is based on more than 100 14C dates from the site of Harappa and nearby localities. These periodization is temporally correlatable with the Indus valley civilisations from Baluchistan and Helmand province proposed by Shaffer21. While the first two phases were represented by pastoral and early village farming communities, the mature Harappan settlements were highly urbanized with several organized cities, developed material and craft culture having trans-Asiatic trading to regions as distant as Arabia and Mesopotamia.

My whole point would be that, sure, we can split hairs concerning the differences between a culture and a civilization, but at the same time, the paper that we are both citing also refers to pastoral and early village farming communities as part of the overall civilization--why can't these new findings be an extension of that timeline, pushing the civilization proper back a couple thousand of years? Well, like the paper says:

Based on the spatio-temporal distribution of the archaeological remains spread throughout the subcontinent a much older chronology has, however, been advocated by Possehl22,16. Accordingly the time spans of the above four phases have been suggested as ~9–6.3 ka BP, 6.3–5.2 ka BP, 5.2–3 ka BP and 3–2.5 ka BP respectively. Clearly the later time scale pushes back the Harappan chronology to at least 1–2 ka older.

Unless I'm mistaken, here, what they're saying is that the same four phases of the civilization remain intact, but the timeframe of each has shifted earlier and lasted longer.

So, why is this not possible?

And just to be fair, a civilization doesn't mean that there has to be high technology or large urban areas--cultural groups in and of themselves can be part of a larger civilization, and that seems to be what this paper is referencing when it discusses things like:

The Hakra settlements, spread along the Ghaggar-Hakra river valleys have been found at Kalibangan, Farmana, Girawad, Rakhigarhi and Bhirrana, the present site of investigation. A large number (~70) of conventional and AMS radiocarbon dates indeed support the antiquity of this phase in different parts of the Indus-Ghaggar Hakra river belts viz. Girawad (Pit-23, 6.2 ka BP), Mithathal (Trench A-1, 8.2 ka BP), Kalibangan (sample TF-439, 7.6 ka BP). The recent excavations at Rakhigarhi suggest hitherto unknown largest Harappan settlement in India preserving all the cultural levels including the Hakra phase.

I mean, maybe I'm just absolutely wrong, as is the author of the link in the OP, and Slayer, and all the others who look at this with an open mind, but something tells me there's something to these findings, and that the ~6,000-year timespan of the Indus Valley Civilization may be expanding. But like I said, I could be absolutely wrong--I'm not an expert in this field, as has been pointed out already.

originally posted by: Marduk

Egypt and the cultures that preceded it are older than anything in the East
en.wikipedia.org...

"The period from 9000 to 6000 BC has left very little in the way of archaeological evidence. Around 6000 BC, Neolithic settlements appear all over Egypt"


Mesopotamian culture is older than that and is currently considered to be the cradle of civilisation, by people who aren't making up facts


en.wikipedia.org...

"Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) denotes the first stage in early Levantine and Anatolian Neolithic culture, dating around 11,500 to 10,000 BP".

Archaeological remains are located in the Levantine and upper Mesopotamian region of the Fertile Crescent.

If you're going to use Wiki and also 'Pottery" as your measuring sticks then we have a tie...

Japan is to the East of Egypt and Mesopotamia FYI.

Jomon

Oldest Pottery in Japan

The pottery vessels crafted in Ancient Japan during the Jōmon period are generally accepted to be the oldest pottery in Japan.


Dating
Bits of pottery discovered in a cave in the northwest coast of modern-day Kyushu date back to as far as 12,700 BCE in radiometric dating tests. It is believed by many that Jōmon pottery was probably made even earlier than this date. However, due to ambiguity and multiple sources claiming different dates based on different dating techniques, it is difficult to say for sure how far back Jōmon Pottery was made. Some sources claim archaeological discoveries as far back as the 14th millennium BCE.

Jōmon Chronology
The Jōmon Period in Ancient Japan lasted until roughly 300 BCE. From there, it is divided into six periods: Incipient Jōmon, from 10,500-8,000 BCE, Earliest Jōmon, from 8,000-5,000 BCE, Early Jōmon, from 5,000-2,500 BCE, Middle Jōmon, from 2,500- 1,500 BCE, Late Jōmon, from 1,500-1,000 BCE, and Final Jōmon, from 1,000-300 BCE. There are over 80 sites in Japan where Incipient Jōmon pottery vessels have been found, but the majority of Jōmon pottery remains come from the later periods.

a reply to: SLAYER69

Wow, so they were facing a threat from the east, about the same distance a claim that they were worried about a warlike band of Picts turning up from Scotland

Like, dude, look at a map before you embarrass yourself



anyway
see you
raise you

Pottery originated before the Neolithic period, with ceramic objects like the Gravettian culture Venus of Dolní Věstonice figurine discovered in the Czech Republic date back to 29,000–25,000 BC,[6] and pottery vessels that were discovered in Jiangxi, China, which date back to 18,000 BC.

China, do you know offhand if that is closer or further away than Japan
mwahaha

originally posted by: Marduk

China, do you know offhand if that is closer or further away than Japan
mwahaha

China is East of Egypt as well.

Hows your foot taste?

Egypt and the cultures that preceded it are older than anything in the East
en.wikipedia.org...

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Marduk

China, do you know offhand if that is closer or further away than Japan
mwahaha

China is East of Egypt as well.

Hows your foot taste?

Egypt and the cultures that preceded it are older than anything in the East
en.wikipedia.org...

I have no idea what you mean

a reply to: bijouramov

People who are so perfectly confident in their knowledge are what sours this forum.

Do you expect knowledgeable people not to be confident in their knowledge?

Do you also listen with an accepting mind to people who tell you the sky is yellow with pink polka dots?

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: LABTECH767

Yes it would and it is interesting to see how some here are attacking the very possibility (And evidence) that they are real with gusto that show's they have some kind of vested interest

Yes, I have a vested interest.

I am, as I said, South Asian. So I have a vested interest in not allowing South Asian racists, religious extremists and nationalist bigots — the type who persecute their ethnic and relgious rivals, burn down places of worship and chop the worshippers to pieces, suborn politicians in ostensibly democratic societies and ensure that outdated laws enshrining bigotry and discrimination remain on the statute-books in our countries — gain spurious academic support for their platforms. I don’t wish to see more people killed and persecuted, more lies spread, and civilization recede further from my country and its neighbours.

I am also a historian of these cultures and countries, so I have a vested interest in the truth. And this thread is propagating a huge lie.

And you, with your purblind Western ignorance, your antiestablishment prejudice and your infinite gullibility, are giving aid and comfort to villains and monsters on the opposite side of the world.

Sadly, the terms and conditions of this site forbid me to tell you exactly what I think of you.

I absolutely love your post, it is rather acidic and very vehement in part but eminently funny, it made me chuckle rather loudly, touché as they say in France, up to the point in which you attacked first the thread accusing it of propagating a lie and then my blind anti establishment stance and gullibility I actually agreed with you, that is the first two paragraph's of your statement, however while I could get absolutely on board with you up to that point the rest made me reluctant to say so (but I have anyway), you do have a point that there are very strong religious Hindu extremists of some sect's of the Hindu faith for whom proof of a city that they can then use to claim that there deity Krishna was real are indeed milking it and I also know that some extremist's from all side's, Hindu, Buddhist and Islamic have been extremely violent and intolerant to other religious group's to the point of committing atrocity's.

They are without exception disgusting individual's, now recently on another thread I accepted your explanation for the Adam's bridge formation's but here I think there may be something more palpable, of course it would indeed be best coming from a genuinely neutral source and perhaps the argument about the artefact's is also valid but you can not deny that there is mystery to be solved, that the Indian civilization's and indeed the south Asian civilization's in general which are your own ancestral legacy and inheritance were indeed probably more advanced than the bigoted Victorian European view wanted to accept for obvious political and ideological reason's and sadly the legacy of that teaching has remained as one small dark stain amid many other both good and bad thing's that are the legacy of western imperialism in the region.

So what I am saying is that I believe they are real but do not know they are real, unless you have bathometric data or preferably high resolution sounding and sonar scan's of the sea bed and the named anomaly's there that prove they are not then your own opinion is just as biased and you have admitted as much (though I like the reason FOR your bias if not your blanket denial of the subject matter).

By the way sorry for the late reply, my PC's PSU blew, took out my main board and cpu so I had to get a replacement PC which is a pain in the but I am now having to download windows 10 updates again and reconfigure my software trying to transfer 3 terabyte's of installs' and data (thankfully my HD survived somehow).

a reply to: Astyanax

Do you expect knowledgeable people not to be confident in their knowledge?

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."
-- Socrates

Do you also listen with an accepting mind to people who tell you the sky is yellow with pink polka dots?

"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance."
— Akhenaton

a reply to: Marduk

Egypt is older than Sumer? That's a new one. I suppose you are also going to say that Bimini road is a hoax

a reply to: Marduk

He means that you are clearly incorrect and not nearly as educated as you would have us believe. "Sticking your foot in your mouth" is an expression that means you should stop talking before you embarrass yourself any more than you already have.

originally posted by: Falcon37
a reply to: Marduk

He means that you are clearly incorrect and not nearly as educated as you would have us believe. "Sticking your foot in your mouth" is an expression that means you should stop talking before you embarrass yourself any more than you already have.

But I didn't stick anything in my mouth, he claimed that Japan was organised enough to be a military problem and I laughed at the idea and showed how he was wrong, I am still mystified that he thought he got anywhere with his fallacious claims and also note that you can't explain where I went wrong either
loser

originally posted by: Falcon37
a reply to: Marduk

Egypt is older than Sumer? That's a new one. I suppose you are also going to say that Bimini road is a hoax

Well as I said that Sumer was older than Egypt, perhaps you could go do a reading comprehension course and get back to me

The Bimini road is a proven hoax, proven many times by qualified people, feel free to carry on believing people who are lying to you for profit, who aren't even qualified to comment, that's fine by me
Means you're gullible, but that isn't my problem

originally posted by: bijouramov
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."
-- Socrates

luckily, perceived wisdom is a subjective opinion
while you are incapable of the facts, that's probably all you have...
good for you, if that's all you have...

originally posted by: Marduk

he claimed that Japan was organised enough to be a military problem and I laughed at the idea and showed how he was wrong,

Where and when did I "Claimed" that?

You can start your search ---------> Here

originally posted by: Falcon37
a reply to: Marduk

Egypt is older than Sumer? That's a new one.

over 40,000 years of continuous, uninterrupted culture showing clear linear progress from the Neolithic to the Chalcolithic to the predynastic period culminating with the unification of the tribes of upper and then lower Egypt and then in Sumer, the emigrated to the area between 6 KA and 7500 KA. 0ver 40 KA vs a max of 7.5 KA how's that math go again? subtract the 5, carry a 3... at least 32, 500 years of continuous, linear, uninterrupted culture in Egypt BEFORE the people who would become Sumerian emigrated there.

I suppose you are also going to say that Bimini road is a hoax

Hoax? As in there is a half mile long/ 8/10 Km long under water rock formation comprised of limestone blocks referred to as beachrock because of their carbonate cemented shell hash? No, that's not a hoax.

Or do you mean hoax as in its a roadway( or a pier depending on whose version you're reading) made of regularly spaced and shaped, man made blocks? The ones that are neither regularly shaped nor regularly spaced and show no signs of human working and the organic material that's been dated to 3,000-3500 years old( 9 KA after the sea levels began to rise). That one is many things. Things it is not include: a road. A pier. A part of Atlantis. Confirmation of anything Cayce claimed in his hypnotized dream states. The blocks aren't regularly shaped. They are as large as 10-14 feet long, averaged aboutm7-10 feet long and some are much smaller. They aren't regularly shaped and definitely not all rectangular. The proponents of this woo like to show pictures of very small sections with zero context as "proof" of concept. It's like when supporters of Robert Schoch's early 90's geologic dating of the Sphinx only show very small areas in extreme close up to prove that water weathering dates the Sphinx to a wet period at Giza 7-9 Ka BP. What those people also refuse to show, is that the only weathering of this nature is the western enclosure wall, at the rear of the Sphinx or provide context like how the Giza Plateau has an eastward sloping topography which causes a natural rainwater run-off into the west part of the Sphinx enclosure which would erode the limestone along the exposed western enclosure walls and selectively exploit any joints exposed along the cut face.

It's a long winded analogy but apropos as in both cases, proponents only show very small pieces that can be foced into fitting their version of events by denying the casual and lazy reader the opportunity to examine all of the evidence in its proper context. It's all Bull and doesn't pass the smell test when all of the facts are examined as opposed to the convenient ones.

a reply to: bijouramov

How do you know Socrates really said that?

Do not use the words of the wise to pander to ignorance and folly.

originally posted by: SLAYER69

originally posted by: Marduk

he claimed that Japan was organised enough to be a military problem and I laughed at the idea and showed how he was wrong,

Where and when did I "Claimed" that?

You can start your search ---------> Here

oh so you only want people to see your claims out of context

a reply to: SLAYER69

A group of researchers in India have used carbon dating techniques on animal remains and pottery fragments to conclude that the Indus Valley settlements could be 8,000 years old—2,500 years older than previously believed.

Just one question. The article doesn't say what carbon dating techniques were used to verify the age of the pottery and animal remains. i thought you had to take into account what the amount of carbon-14 in the atmosphere was at the time as the "artifacts" were made or buried, by analyzing the decay rate of the c-14 present in the rings of trees form the same time frame as the artifacts. that being said, what if the amount of c-14 present in the atmosphere wasn't the same as it is today? i personally believe that most civilizations are way older than what science are able to prove with the scientific tools currently are available to us presently. Good Find Slayer, and great research as always c-14 gets a reset

originally posted by: Marduk
errr, complete bs or hoax, the 8000 BCE date is laughable, ridiculously out of step with the archaeological facts

The Indus Valley Civilisation (IVC) was a Bronze Age civilisation (3300–1300 BCE; mature period 2600–1900 BCE) mainly in the northwestern regions of South Asia, extending from what today is northeast Afghanistan to Pakistan and northwest India

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, the claim for sunken cities was originally made by the Indian minister responsible for marine tourism, Murli Manohar Joshi, in the gulf of Cambray/Khambat and of course turned out to be completely spurious

Really, come on now, once again this has been hoaxed by Hindu nationalism, which always wants to be first, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, even considering this as factual is a complete farce
This is just another government sponsored nationalistic baloney sausage, delivered to you by a government, of which, Several ministers are accused of corruption and nearly a quarter of the 543 elected members of parliament had been charged with crimes, including murder,

I thought they meant 8000bc at first, but actually it says 8000 years, or 6000 bc.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
I thought they meant 8000bc at first, but actually it says 8000 years, or 6000 bc.

Yup and its still nonsense, here is what was happening in the real world at that time
en.wikipedia.org...

Mehrgarh is now seen as a precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization, displaying the whole sequence from earliest settlement and the start of agriculture, to the mature Harappan Civilisation.

Mehrgarh was aceramic (hadn't discovered pottery) and Neolithic (No metal at all)


If that's the qualifier, let me introduce you to some remains in England dating back to the ice age, so we can then claim England as the oldest civilisation... Same standard, same bs result