New Testament Misogyny

a reply to: TzarChasm

where do you get the "all of humanity" from...

man was created to god, women was created for man..
a man is commanded to serve god, the women, she serves god by serving the man. where the man might have some problems trying to discern just how god wants him to serve him, well, it's much more easier for the women since the lord and master is under the same roof as her.
god commands men to be charitable, but it wasn't till more recent times that wife could really be charitable since there was nothing for her to be charitable with, even if she worked and earned a paycheck the husband had control of her earnings.. she couldn't really be charitable with her time either, since well, in order to spend time doing charity work would require the man to give away time that she should have been using to serve him. it was more like him lending his servant to the work, thus, his charity.

a reply to: deignostian

not all slaves were hated, sorry. most though were seen as being less than the master, less deserving of freedom, ect. same with women in earlier times.. they were less than a man, less capable of understanding "god's will", less capable of being able to survive in the world, not as perfect of a creation as men were...
it wasn't hatred, since well, any pet owner will tell you they love their little kitty or puppy, but it was extreme prejudice based on what in most cases unfounded stereotypes. and in order to preserve those stereotypes the men created laws that would preserve that "less than" image of women for as long as they could...

a reply to: dawnstar

I never said anything about slavery, which is more harsh than subjection .

It is also another thing that the NT seems to have no problem with and that's disturbing.

But not the topic. Misogyny and slavery aren't the same thing.

And a polite slave owner is still a slave owner.

a reply to: deignostian and a pampered slave is just a slave...
and women were the first to be enslaved, as wives...

originally posted by: deignostian

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Misogyny is the one of the most incorrectly used words in the english language. Misogyny is the hatred of women or extreme prejudice against women. How do any of those things you listed show a hatred of women? Sure, it shows gender roles but not hatred or prejudice. In those times that was what women were expected to do. Men had roles they were expected to fulfill as well.

Do I hate the garbage man for thinking he ought to take my garbage to the dump? Do I hate my children for thinking they ought to help keep the house clean?

I think it not a stretch to say subjecting your wife or making her be subservient because Paul says to is, if you follow his "teachings" to the letter, hate.

If you can make your wife subservient and NOT hate her you are a sociopath with no conscience.

I used misogyny because it was appropriate and not by mistake or misuse.

Common sense really.

Submission and dominance are part of human social and sexual behaviour. Some choose submission as a preference in relationship. In extreme cases, it can be warped to bondage and sexual slavery but this is hardly the norm. It also does not indicate hatred, even in those extreme cases.

Neither submission nor dominance roles in human relationships have anything to do with hate. A man who loves his wife, though he may take a dominant role, expecting her to take the submissive one, isn't mysogenist.

Mysogeny = hatred.

a reply to: deignostian

So you hate your garbage man?

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: deignostian

originally posted by: Dfairlite
Misogyny is the one of the most incorrectly used words in the english language. Misogyny is the hatred of women or extreme prejudice against women. How do any of those things you listed show a hatred of women? Sure, it shows gender roles but not hatred or prejudice. In those times that was what women were expected to do. Men had roles they were expected to fulfill as well.

Do I hate the garbage man for thinking he ought to take my garbage to the dump? Do I hate my children for thinking they ought to help keep the house clean?

I think it not a stretch to say subjecting your wife or making her be subservient because Paul says to is, if you follow his "teachings" to the letter, hate.

If you can make your wife subservient and NOT hate her you are a sociopath with no conscience.

I used misogyny because it was appropriate and not by mistake or misuse.

Common sense really.

Submission and dominance are part of human social and sexual behaviour. Some choose submission as a preference in relationship. In extreme cases, it can be warped to bondage and sexual slavery but this is hardly the norm. It also does not indicate hatred, even in those extreme cases.

Neither submission nor dominance roles in human relationships have anything to do with hate. A man who loves his wife, though he may take a dominant role, expecting her to take the submissive one, isn't mysogenist.

Mysogeny = hatred.

Exactly correct. Does the alpha male in a wolf pack hate his pack? Quite the opposite.

a reply to: chr0naut

but, warping the laws so that they force all women into a state of dependency so that they have to accept this submissive role is Mysogeny. and in christian dominated western countries this was done using those biblical verses as a justification for it.

just as a man who tries to force his wife into that submissive role is.

you are conveniently leaving out that other meaning of the word... EXTREME PREJUDICE.
when you warp the laws to force any group of people into an submissive role...
how can you not call that extreme prejudice?

a reply to: chr0naut

"Making love" does not necessarily require one partner to assume a dominate role while the other assumes a submissive role. I would assume that those who prefer such sexual expressions also prefer role playing and Paul's model of a Christian marriage.

a reply to: Dfairlite

Exactly correct. Does the alpha male in a wolf pack hate his pack? Quite the opposite.

The "Alpha Male" isn't trying to convince his subjects that they are equal, now is he?

I get the impression some think they might have more wisdom
than He who inspired the Bible.

Concerning the OP, and others who complain about certain elements
of scripture I'd like for once to hear what they might propose instead.

Wait a minute, didn't Job experience that already?

I have a question for everyone who has tried the old "out of context" argument.

In what context is it that makes subservience and subjection not disgusting for a man to do to his wife?

Is there a magical verse that alters the definition of subservience? I have previously given the definition of and synonyms for subjection and subservience.

Please read them before telling me how a person, never mind a self appointed "apostle", claiming that this is what God wants, could do that to someone they love.

Or find this acceptable today or ever.

No context is going to change what was said and meant. No cryptic or difficult to understand message is behind the doctrine of the inferiority of women. It's plain and simple and is its own context. There is no justifying inequality, and trying to use other verses to make it not misogynistic doesn't work because you still have the fact that what was said was said and was meant how it was said.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: chr0naut

but, warping the laws so that they force all women into a state of dependency so that they have to accept this submissive role is Mysogeny. and in christian dominated western countries this was done using those biblical verses as a justification for it.

just as a man who tries to force his wife into that submissive role is.

you are conveniently leaving out that other meaning of the word... EXTREME PREJUDICE.
when you warp the laws to force any group of people into an submissive role...
how can you not call that extreme prejudice?

I agree with you here.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: deignostian

So you hate your garbage man?

I have a dumpster and have never meant anyone from the company who picks up my garbage because they come at 4:00 am.

I actually don't hate anyone. It's a ruinous emotion.

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: deignostian and a pampered slave is just a slave...
and women were the first to be enslaved, as wives...

I don't disagree.

Although pampered slave? I'm sorry I just don't get that one.

I have a question for everyone who has tried the old "out of context" argument. In what context is it that makes subservience and subjection not disgusting for a man to do to his wife? Is there a magical verse that alters the definition of subservience? I have previously given the definition of and synonyms for subjection and subservience. Please read them before telling me how a person, never mind a self appointed "apostle", claiming that this is what God wants, could do that to someone they love. Or find this acceptable today or ever. No context is going to change what was said and meant. No cryptic or difficult to understand message is behind the doctrine of the inferiority of women. It's plain and simple and is its own context. There is no justifying inequality, and trying to use other verses to make it not misogynistic doesn't work because you still have the fact that what was said was said and was meant how it was said.

This is just my limited understanding. But no man or woman would ever
be willing to follow any of the commandments of Christ if their not
changed of God through a spiritual transformation/sanctification.

Seems to be the issue appears antagonistic when some seek
to understand and follow Christ in their own understanding
and/or outside of a born of God experience.

It's no different than Nicodemus baffled at the feet of Christ,
or the roman Pilate questioning Christ what is truth?

a garbage man has agreed to do a job, pick up the garbage from the side of the road throughout the country. all the residents pay the country taxes, of which, some is used to pay the garbage man. once he is done picking up the garbage, he is free to go home, live his own life, enjoy his family, his friends, do whatever he wishes. he also get a nice vaction package of a week or two where he is free to do whatever he wishes within the laws of the land. there are no laws, or religions saying that he has to pick up the garbage, he can, if he chooses, find a job doing something else. his mommy or daddy didn't sell him off before he came into adolescents to work as a garbage man for higher status in the society.

you are trying to compare apples to oranges.

a reply to: MrBlaq

This is just my limited understanding. But no man or woman would ever be willing to follow any of the commandments of Christ if their not changed of God through a spiritual transformation/sanctification.

Unfortunately, we're not discussing the commandments of Jesus "Christ". We're discussing Paul's model of gender roles in a Christian marriage.

I don't think that Jesus ever told a woman to submit herself to authority of her husband, As a matter fact, when he encountered a woman who had been remarried several time, he told her to go and "sin no more", which would require her to leave her husband. Jesus, in fact, encouraged men to leave their families and follow him. So much for sacrificing for one's wife.

a reply to: deignostian

any women who is forced into a submissive role, either by laws or through belief systems, in my opinion just a slave (if a women chooses that lifestyle, then well, I don't know, I think she chooses to be a slave but maybe I am just being too harsh).. changing the title to wife, doesn't change that.

the men can claim how much they love their wives, how well they are treating them all they want....
a pampered slave is still just a slave!

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: deignostian

any women who is forced into a submissive role, either by laws or through belief systems, in my opinion just a slave (if a women chooses that lifestyle, then well, I don't know, I think she chooses to be a slave but maybe I am just being too harsh).. changing the title to wife, doesn't change that.

the men can claim how much they love their wives, how well they are treating them all they want....
a pampered slave is still just a slave!

TY for clarifying that, I agree.