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Helel ben Shachar
page: 2share:
a reply to: Sahabi
I was just coming to get back to you. I thought about Helel and the what I gather is while he is addressing an unnamed king (always a sign of esoteric meaning) about the fall of Babylon it was written after the fall to Persia and the story is used to convey the message that no one goes up against the Most High and doesn't regret it.
The other thing being accomplished is the establishment of Yahweh as Most High and ultimately every El, Elohim, Yahweh or HaShem are all Yahweh Sabaoth despite original meanings of Elohim and El.
Tough to combine all the traditions and it is blotted out in modern common language so nobody realizes that Israel was never a one God nation.
Yahwism is announced in Isaiah and must therefore be a Yahwistic tradition post Babylon and probably during Persian rule. The prophecy was to be fulfilled in the time of the King so it must have another meaning if we didn't hear of its fulfillment and it is in the scripture.
So not a double prophecy but a record of a past oracle that explains the El-Baal/Yahweh episode while reassigning Yahweh to El Elyon instead of his Deuteronomist status as a Son of El.
A revelation more than a prophecy. The only thing is, is Yahweh still really Baal and I believe he is. But such an interesting topic for one passage, a sentence really.
That is the Hebrew way of reading scripture you squeeze meaning out of every letter.
I was just coming to get back to you. I thought about Helel and the what I gather is while he is addressing an unnamed king (always a sign of esoteric meaning) about the fall of Babylon it was written after the fall to Persia and the story is used to convey the message that no one goes up against the Most High and doesn't regret it.
The other thing being accomplished is the establishment of Yahweh as Most High and ultimately every El, Elohim, Yahweh or HaShem are all Yahweh Sabaoth despite original meanings of Elohim and El.
Tough to combine all the traditions and it is blotted out in modern common language so nobody realizes that Israel was never a one God nation.
Yahwism is announced in Isaiah and must therefore be a Yahwistic tradition post Babylon and probably during Persian rule. The prophecy was to be fulfilled in the time of the King so it must have another meaning if we didn't hear of its fulfillment and it is in the scripture.
So not a double prophecy but a record of a past oracle that explains the El-Baal/Yahweh episode while reassigning Yahweh to El Elyon instead of his Deuteronomist status as a Son of El.
A revelation more than a prophecy. The only thing is, is Yahweh still really Baal and I believe he is. But such an interesting topic for one passage, a sentence really.
That is the Hebrew way of reading scripture you squeeze meaning out of every letter.
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
Second Isaiah is definitely post Persian take over of Babylon.
So the new, the improved, the most awesome, one and only Yahweh, the one and only God of the Universe has already declared who his Messiah is: Cyrus the Great.
So everyone, Jew and Christian alike should declare Cyrus is Messiah.
Yahwism is announced in Isaiah and must therefore be a Yahwistic tradition post Babylon and probably during Persian rule. The prophecy was to be fulfilled in the time of the King so it must have another meaning if we didn't hear of its fulfillment and it is in the scripture.
Second Isaiah is definitely post Persian take over of Babylon.
1Thus says Yahweh to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held, to subdue nations before him, and strip kings of their armor; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut:
2"I will go before you, and make the rough places smooth. I will break the doors of brass in pieces, and cut apart the bars of iron.
3I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that it is I, Yahweh, who call you by your name, even the God of Israel.
4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel my chosen, I have called you by your name. I have surnamed you, though you have not known me.
5I am Yahweh, and there is none else. Besides me, there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not known me;
So the new, the improved, the most awesome, one and only Yahweh, the one and only God of the Universe has already declared who his Messiah is: Cyrus the Great.
So everyone, Jew and Christian alike should declare Cyrus is Messiah.
Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I Yahweh do all these things.
13 I have aroused Cyrus in Righteousness,
and I will make his paths straight.
Cryus was a Zoroastrian whose God was Ohrmazd and it seems that the two traditions had much in common. The Levites were similar in societal role as the Magians, although a higher priesthood existed that was more monotheistic.
But Yahweh seems to accept Cyrus as a ruler and this shows the fondness the Hebrews had for Persia who helped build the Temple.
Naturally they adopted some beliefs that influenced the decision to go monotheistic.
A fallen angel was not part of that plan.
EDIT:
I never thought it before but Cyrus is a Messiah. There where a few Messiahs before the term took on a new meaning. Previously annointed people where called Messiahs and some believed in the coming of a warrior Messiah and a Priestley Messiah.
But Rome would not have it so Jesus was of both bloodlines prophecied. Although Titus might be a Roman warrior Messiah I think. My knowledge of Roman history is not so good.
Good observation on Cyrus.
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I Yahweh do all these things.
13 I have aroused Cyrus in Righteousness,
and I will make his paths straight.
Cryus was a Zoroastrian whose God was Ohrmazd and it seems that the two traditions had much in common. The Levites were similar in societal role as the Magians, although a higher priesthood existed that was more monotheistic.
But Yahweh seems to accept Cyrus as a ruler and this shows the fondness the Hebrews had for Persia who helped build the Temple.
Naturally they adopted some beliefs that influenced the decision to go monotheistic.
A fallen angel was not part of that plan.
EDIT:
I never thought it before but Cyrus is a Messiah. There where a few Messiahs before the term took on a new meaning. Previously annointed people where called Messiahs and some believed in the coming of a warrior Messiah and a Priestley Messiah.
But Rome would not have it so Jesus was of both bloodlines prophecied. Although Titus might be a Roman warrior Messiah I think. My knowledge of Roman history is not so good.
Good observation on Cyrus.
edit on 21-7-2016 by ZoeEleutheria because: (no reason given)
edit on 21-7-2016 by ZoeEleutheria
because: (no reason given)
a reply to: pthena
If you can believe I didn't read your comment before making mine about Cyrus.
That is freaky that we both thought of Cyrus at roughly the same time and I clicked to go to the beginning of the thread and made a quote addressed to no one and had no idea what you said. I wanted to make my comment first so I didn't forget anything so avoided reading your message.
What a surprise to see you mention the same person.
If you can believe I didn't read your comment before making mine about Cyrus.
That is freaky that we both thought of Cyrus at roughly the same time and I clicked to go to the beginning of the thread and made a quote addressed to no one and had no idea what you said. I wanted to make my comment first so I didn't forget anything so avoided reading your message.
What a surprise to see you mention the same person.
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
Perfectly natural, we were both thinking of a way to place a timeframe. I was responding to your post after all.
What a surprise to see you mention the same person.
Perfectly natural, we were both thinking of a way to place a timeframe. I was responding to your post after all.
originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
What a surprise to see you mention the same person.
Perfectly natural, we were both thinking of a way to place a timeframe. I was responding to your post after all.
Absolutely, just good to have someone on the same page!
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
Compare with
Compare with
Cyrus_Cylinder
In [Nabonidus's] mind, reverential fear of Marduk, king of the gods, came to an end. He did yet more evil to his city every day; … his [people ................…], he brought ruin on them all by a yoke without relief … [Marduk] inspected and checked all the countries, seeking for the upright king of his choice. He took the hand of Cyrus, king of the city of Anshan, and called him by his name, proclaiming him aloud for the kingship over all of everything.
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
Wikipedia. When I clicked the footnote reference though it was "Page Not Found". Perhaps someone else may have a link to translation of Cyrus Cylinder. Also see: Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible
I'm not familiar with the other story you mention.
Where did you get that?
Wikipedia. When I clicked the footnote reference though it was "Page Not Found". Perhaps someone else may have a link to translation of Cyrus Cylinder. Also see: Cyrus_the_Great_in_the_Bible
I'm not familiar with the other story you mention.
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
Titus would have made a wonderful Messiah along the same lines as Messiah Cyrus.
In fact, Herod the Great was crowned King of Judea in Rome as a result of his alliance with a Roman general in getting Judea into Roman empire, instead of the Parthian? (Persian) empire. That general also became Emperor of Rome.
But Rome would not have it so Jesus was of both bloodlines prophecied. Although Titus might be a Roman warrior Messiah I think.
Titus (Latin: Titus Flāvius Caesar Vespasiānus Augustus;[a] 30 December 39 AD – 13 September 81 AD) was Roman emperor from 79 to 81. A member of the Flavian dynasty, Titus succeeded his father Vespasian upon his death, thus becoming the first Roman Emperor to come to the throne after his own biological father.
Titus would have made a wonderful Messiah along the same lines as Messiah Cyrus.
The Roman–Persian Wars
The Roman–Persian Wars were a series of conflicts between states of the Greco-Roman world and two successive Iranian empires: the Parthian and the Sassanid. Battles between the Parthian Empire and the Roman Republic began in 92 BC; wars began under the late Republic, and continued through the Roman and Sassanid empires. They were ended by the Arab Muslim invasions, which devastated the Sassanid and Byzantine East Roman empires shortly after the end of the last war between them.
In fact, Herod the Great was crowned King of Judea in Rome as a result of his alliance with a Roman general in getting Judea into Roman empire, instead of the Parthian? (Persian) empire. That general also became Emperor of Rome.
edit on 21-7-2016 by pthena because: (no reason
given)
a reply to: Sahabi
I contend that the phrase in Isaiah 14:12 is talking about the antichrist, and that the term Heylel Ben Sachar is in Arabic. Both are Semitic languages and the prophecy is for the end time. And just like with Ezekiel chapter 28 it starts as a prophecy to a man, it then switches and goes beyond the man to the fallen cherub angel behind the man.
I contend that the phrase in Isaiah 14:12 is talking about the antichrist, and that the term Heylel Ben Sachar is in Arabic. Both are Semitic languages and the prophecy is for the end time. And just like with Ezekiel chapter 28 it starts as a prophecy to a man, it then switches and goes beyond the man to the fallen cherub angel behind the man.
edit on 7 21 2016 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)
Yahweh is a greek god of knowledge the Jews placed his initials on GOD when they wrote the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament for Alexander
the great.
JHVH or Jehovah is the true and almighty God of whom Jesus was bodily in the flesh.
JHVH or Jehovah is the true and almighty God of whom Jesus was bodily in the flesh.
edit on 22-7-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason
given)
a reply to: ChesterJohn
Then was he looking for someone worthy to be Messiah?
Or was he pretty much saying there would be no more Messiahs?
The line I'm emphasizing is at 3:40 of the film clip.
ETA
The last scene, choosing the people for the mission seems significant also.
JHVH or Jehovah is the true and almighty God of whom Jesus was bodily in the flesh.
Then was he looking for someone worthy to be Messiah?
Or was he pretty much saying there would be no more Messiahs?
The line I'm emphasizing is at 3:40 of the film clip.
ETA
The last scene, choosing the people for the mission seems significant also.
edit on 22-7-2016 by pthena because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ChesterJohn
Sahabi has provided this:
I don't think you have provided a quote from your preserved English text yet for this passage.
If I'm not mistaken, 1&2 Kings was considered part of "the Prophets" during the proposed time of Jesus.
This would explain the attitude that Jesus had with regards to Samaritans, if indeed the Israelites were still exiled. "Salvation is of the Judahites."
If Jesus was the designated deity of the Judahites, and non-Israelites (Samaritans, as other(by blood) people living in the land) aren't part of his people, then perhaps Indo-Europeans descended from converts to Judaism are not Judahites either.
So how one reads Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is very pivotal.
Sahabi has provided this:
According to the oldest examples of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, the nations of the earth are actually subject to Elyon, while the Tribe/Children of Israel is the only nation allotted to YHWH.
I don't think you have provided a quote from your preserved English text yet for this passage.
If I'm not mistaken, 1&2 Kings was considered part of "the Prophets" during the proposed time of Jesus.
18Therefore Yahweh was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.
19Also Judah didn't keep the commandments of Yahweh their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 20Yahweh rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight.
21For he tore Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drove Israel from following Yahweh, and made them sin a great sin. 22The children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they didn't depart from them; 23until Yahweh removed Israel out of his sight, as he spoke by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was carried away out of their own land to Assyria to this day.
2 Kings 17 WEB
This would explain the attitude that Jesus had with regards to Samaritans, if indeed the Israelites were still exiled. "Salvation is of the Judahites."
If Jesus was the designated deity of the Judahites, and non-Israelites (Samaritans, as other(by blood) people living in the land) aren't part of his people, then perhaps Indo-Europeans descended from converts to Judaism are not Judahites either.
So how one reads Deuteronomy 32:8-9 is very pivotal.
a reply to: pthena
oh my here is the preserved word of God, and like I said the version you quote is a perversion of God's words as it has verses missing from your copy of a copy of a man made bible for profit. Italics added words for clarity
God will bring back the children of Israel into their land
oh my here is the preserved word of God, and like I said the version you quote is a perversion of God's words as it has verses missing from your copy of a copy of a man made bible for profit. Italics added words for clarity
Deuteronomy 32:8, 9 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance (Japhet, Shem and Ham), when he separated the sons of Adam (Noah's Sons), he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel (12 divisions) . For the LORD'S (JHVJ) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
God will bring back the children of Israel into their land
Ezekiel 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
Zechariah 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
Zechariah 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
edit on 22-7-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ChesterJohn
Actually, I was quoting World English Bible, public domain.
So are each of the 12 disciples the chosen god of each of the twelve tribes? Whose god is Judas?
Does each of the 12 claim some portion of the nations to be a god for?
How are the people of the nations supposed to determine which of the 12 is their god?
Actually, I was quoting World English Bible, public domain.
27Then Peter answered, "Behold, we have left everything, and followed you. What then will we have?" 28Jesus said to them, "Most certainly I tell you that you who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on the throne of his glory, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29Everyone who has left houses, or brothers, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, will receive one hundred times, and will inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19 WEB
So are each of the 12 disciples the chosen god of each of the twelve tribes? Whose god is Judas?
Does each of the 12 claim some portion of the nations to be a god for?
How are the people of the nations supposed to determine which of the 12 is their god?
edit on 22-7-2016 by pthena because: close
italics
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: pthena
oh my here is the preserved word of God, and like I said the version you quote is a perversion
Logic time. If the Bible is pervertable (it is) then it's not preserved or infallible. In any edition because obviously God is not preserving it if he is allowing it to be corrupted.
What was the "preserved version" in the time of Christ (OT, obviously). Because those texts do not agree with the Masoretic.
So no preserved Word of God existed until the Masoretic scribes? Odd. What about the Vulgate, Septuagint or the Qumran texts?
of God's words as it has verses missing from your copy of a copy of a man made bible for profit. Italics added words for clarity
Deuteronomy 32:8, 9 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance (Japhet, Shem and Ham), when he separated the sons of Adam (Noah's Sons), he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel (12 divisions) . For the LORD'S (JHVJ) portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
God will bring back the children of Israel into their land
Ezekiel 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
Zechariah 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.
Zechariah 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
I can see you are not applying acceptable logic here. Calling the Bible perverted is not something most Christians do. Most feel that all are preserved although some like certain versions better.
But it's no secret that the Masoretic is corrupt, we have literal proof.
a reply to: ZoeEleutheria
Please if you are going to quoter me please makes sure you get the whole quote not just part of it. To do so leads to you saying I said something but here it is so all know what you left our of the quote
Gnosisiisfaith, what you are failing to realize is God did not say he would preserve it in the original languages to every generation. He did not say he would preserve it in a multitude of English versions in this generation. What he said was he would preserve it to every generation forever Ps 12:6,7.
So at one time he inspired and preserved it in Hebrew. All other copies since are no longer verifiable because we don't have the original Hebrew Autograph to check them too.
At one time he preserved it into the Greek the trade language of the time of Alexander the great. All copies we have today are unverifiable because we don't have that original Greek Autograph
Then he preserved it into English at the time of English Empire.
So ALL other copies are error because when they came to those difficult parts you stumble over they relied on God to inspire and correct so that we have a preserved word today with all the words of God and all the verses.
find the ONE English Bible with all the verse and stick to it. Don't trust men, scholars or preachers just stick to it and it will show you great and wonderful truths.
in other direction will only lead you to strife and debates and eventual insanity.
Please if you are going to quoter me please makes sure you get the whole quote not just part of it. To do so leads to you saying I said something but here it is so all know what you left our of the quote
oh my here is the preserved word of God, and like I said the version you quote is a perversion of God's words as it has verses missing from your copy of a copy of a man made bible for profit. Italics added words for clarity
Gnosisiisfaith, what you are failing to realize is God did not say he would preserve it in the original languages to every generation. He did not say he would preserve it in a multitude of English versions in this generation. What he said was he would preserve it to every generation forever Ps 12:6,7.
So at one time he inspired and preserved it in Hebrew. All other copies since are no longer verifiable because we don't have the original Hebrew Autograph to check them too.
At one time he preserved it into the Greek the trade language of the time of Alexander the great. All copies we have today are unverifiable because we don't have that original Greek Autograph
Then he preserved it into English at the time of English Empire.
So ALL other copies are error because when they came to those difficult parts you stumble over they relied on God to inspire and correct so that we have a preserved word today with all the words of God and all the verses.
find the ONE English Bible with all the verse and stick to it. Don't trust men, scholars or preachers just stick to it and it will show you great and wonderful truths.
in other direction will only lead you to strife and debates and eventual insanity.
edit on 22-7-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)
edit on 22-7-2016 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason
given)
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