Six days or 14 billion years? How about both :D

www.geraldschroeder.com...


"One of the most obvious perceived contradictions between Torah and science is the age of the universe. Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? When we add up the generations of the Bible and then add the secular rulers that followed, we come to fewer than 6000 years. Whereas, data from the Hubbell telescope or from the land based telescopes in Hawaii, indicate the number at 15 billion years plus or minus 10%. In trying to resolve this apparent conflict, I use only ancient biblical commentary because modern commentary already knows modern science, and so it is influenced by what science always.

That commentary includes the text of the Bible itself (3300 years ago), the translation of the Torah into Aramaic by Onkelos (100 CE), the Talmud (redacted about the year 400 CE), and the three major Torah commentators. There are many, many commentators, but at the top of the mountain there are three, accepted by all: Rashi (11th century France), who brings the straight understanding of the text, Maimonides (12th century Egypt), who handles the philosophical concepts, and then Nahmanides (13th century Spain), the most important of the Kabbalists.

These ancient commentaries were finalized hundreds or thousands of years ago, long before Hubbell was a gleam in his great-grandparent's eye. So there's no possibility of Hubbell or any other scientific data influencing these concepts. That's a key component in keeping the following discussion objective."



So what I found to be interesting is that he based this off of ancient commentary. This is a short article giving a brief overview of The Science of God. I plan to get it and read it soon! I thought this was an interesting perspective let me know what you think!

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data?

It is billions of years old ... and the bible doesn't say squat about 'just' thousands of years. That is the flawed thinking of man.

And ... I don't subscribe to religion. That 'thousands of years' thingy really gets under my skin.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It can't be both. The Earth is definitely not less than 6,000 years old.

The Bible is a fantistic book. I have read it cover to cover several times. Studied it in college, but as literature. It is a mix of history, drama, love,horror, science fiction, fantasy...everything one would want in a book. But even though it contains a bit of history, it is still a work of fiction, in general.

These books, since you mention the Torah as well, went through several translations from Aramaic when very few people can even read the language.

If I wanted to say anything about the contradiction, is that one is a summary and some oral and some written tradition attempted to keep track of genealogical lines. But so many prior civilzations 'beat' the bible to most of the content.


Much of the content is borrowed from writings before it.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Draw a circle, the perfect figure. Take with a compass the radius of that circle and by this measurment divide the circle into parts(using the compass). You'll find something very interesting.

I had this done before for one friend, she was good astrologist, but didn't had any clue about alchemy, especially the so called psycological alchemy, or alchemy of the personality. Now imagine that the world(universum) is a BIG person and the next will make a lot of sense in the six day work, seventh day rest theory.

Realization: "Calcination" (Scorpio overpowers Taurus)
About: The confrontation of the self with its shadow - its deepest pain, and the initial avoidance of that pain through addictions, eventually leading to the healing of the self (and therefore others) through persistent self-acceptance in facing one's 'issues.' Being able to BE, and needing nothing more.
Strength: Potential for tremendous self-sufficiency, and the radiation of peace and love.
Weaknesses: Tendency to look to external supports as indulgences and avoidances. Looking outside to avoid being fully present. Difficulty in surrendering control and in embracing emotion. Lazy or difficult habits that maintain inertia and prolong the inevitable.
Paradoxical Solution: If one can cultivate True Beingness, then one really needs nothing more. Yet that is the first time one can handle the presence of wealth, power, wisdom, food, drink, sex, and relationships without misusing them to attempt to establish an external security. One can fully be present to the world and all of its pleasures only when one does not need them as supports.
Calcination - Psychologically, this is a destruction of the lower ego and our attachment to material possessions.

Discipline: "Dissolution" (Sagittarius overpowers Gemini)

About: Fun. The flow of creative, artistic and mental abilities coupled with the yearning to experience, know, and express more. The challenge to discipline, commit, and narrow the focus so one can express and experience The Truth / True Creativity.
Strength: A playful, open spirit willing to be open to new possibilities, and enjoy them.
Weaknesses: Lack of focus and maturity; creative potential neglected through scattered forces or lack of confidence in oneself. Over-learning -- the desire to know more preventing a deeper experience; the addiction to the mental realm can prevent actualization. The mind may never calm down enough to assume its proper role as a servant, not master. Play can eclipse responsibility.
Dissolution - can be experienced as "flow," the bliss of being well-used and actively engaged in creative acts without traditional prejudices, personal hang-ups, or established hierarchy getting in the way. The Second stage is the "Journey into Self", as Union with the Higher Self," and is called by Dr. Carl G. Jung "The Process of Individuation." - Individuation is the conscious realization of one’s unique psychological reality, including both strengths and weaknesses which allow the individual to defer the momentary needs of shadow and persona and serve the Self as the regulating center of the psyche.
Paradoxical Solution: The greatest expression of Innocence and Creativity comes from growing up and learning to be a focused, responsible adult. Once this is achieved, one's childlike simplicity and creative nature can be fully realized. The child must grow up, and then it can transcend the adult and return to the awakened child. Discipline and grounded practicality are the soil for the child to be reborn in its true potential.

Foundation: "Separation" (Capricorn overpowers Cancer)

About: The yearning to support one's society through developing relationships and family, as well as material and public roles and service. The ability to change to be effective in working and getting along with others. Emotional and physical/practical support for others.
Strengths: Caring, dedication, sensitivity, contribution to the world.
Weaknesses: Changeability creates a lack of authentic self-expression. Sensitivity creates emotional fortresses, distrust, and fear (separation of true self from others). The emphasis on giving creates a difficulty with receiving. Giving so much can lead one to leave 'strings attached.'
Paradoxical Solution: One's first and most important responsibility is to nurture oneself. By receiving as much as one is willing to give, one becomes whole, and then one's simple loving presence does more than all that one has ever 'done' before.
Separation - In Psychological terms, the process of Separation retrieves the frozen energy released from the breaking down of habits and crystallized thoughts (assumptions, beliefs, and prejudices) and hardened feelings (emotional blockages, neuroses and phobias). This misspent energy is now available to drive our Spiritual Transformation.

Surrender: "Conjunction" (Aquarius overpowers Leo)

About: The flow of creative and charismatic energy into group situations to lead or inspire others and take groups to new levels. The development of the individual self to be able to contribute to the community.
Strengths: Confidence, uniqueness, genius, and eccentricity. Social Orientation.
Weakness: Self-aggrandizement, ego, and selfishness. Shifting the importance from the good of all to the excessive importance of oneself. One's rigid opinions, ambition, or self-centeredness gets in the way of humble, compassionate service (true leadership).
Paradoxical Solution: The best leader strives to be invisible and unworshipped. By giving for the pure enjoyment of giving, rather than for what benefits one may accrue from giving, one's service remains free from egotism and power-seeking. One must identify oneself as all people, then one will not live to compete, gain, and profit for oneself.
Conjunction - Psychologically, It is empowerment of our true selves, the union of both the feminine and masculine sides of our personalities into a new belief system or an intuitive state of consciousness. The alchemist referred to it as the Lesser Stone, and after it is achieved, the adept is able to clearly discern what needs to be done to achieve lasting enlightenment, which is union with the Overself. Often, synchronicities begin to occur that confirm the alchemist is on the right track.

Acceptance: "Fermentation" (Pisces overpower Virgo)

About: The overcoming of guilt, sadness, fear, and self-criticism through the awakening of compassion for oneself and others, leading to effortless selfless service.
Strengths: Humility, growth through crisis, discontent which generates action/surrender, and an orientation towards service and wholeness.
Weaknesses: Neglecting compassion for oneself and not allowing the recognition of one's inherent self-worth. Over-giving or overworking which perpetuates that illusion that there is something wrong with others and oneself (that something needs to be fixed), or preventing one from relaxing and allowing oneself to truly receive love. Being overly consumed with one's problems, sorrow, or growth, perpetuating a cycle of self-absorption.
Paradoxical Solution: One can do nothing truly deep and transformative for others, until one has followed the disciplined path of achieving the deepest transformation within oneself. Self-love opens up the floodgates of compassion. Only then can one's service for others be absolutely graceful, meaningful, and effective.

a reply to: GmAndre

Fermentation - When the you reach teh essence of your core, comes the introduction of a new life into the Product of Conjunction to completely change its characteristics - that is, to completely raise it to a new level of being.

Unity: "Distillation" (Aires overpower Libra)

About: The use of physical, creative, mental, attractive, and diplomatic power to succeed in one's endeavors. The strength of detachment to preserve individuality and freedom. The balance of independence and relationship. The proper acceptance and release of anger, allowing one to transform anger into energy.
Strength: Being effective in getting what you want (done).
Weaknesses: Ego, selfish orientation (whether obvious or concealed), love tainted with personal agendas, abuse of power or intelligence, manipulation, losing sight of our actual oneness and enforcing separation because of selfish action or the scheming mind, inability to embrace emotion compassionately.
Paradoxical Solution: The only true warrior learns to use their gifts for the good of all, constantly transcending the identification of oneself as an individual separate from others, and coming to identify oneself as the all. A victory for 'me' becomes a victory for all. A victory for 'you' becomes a victory for 'me.'
Distillation - is said to culminate in the Third Eye are of the forehead, at the Level of the pituitary and pineal glands.One becomes far more interested in the greater good of all then merely in his own.

a reply to: Snarl

Did you even read the article? He goes into their being two biblical clocks. He pulls this from ancient commentary. He is saying the first six days is talking about from the beginning of time to then, and then it swaps to a human perspective of time. He also briefly touches on the math involved in determining the time with relativity.

a reply to: Snarl

You obviously didn't read the article lol

a reply to: reldra

Read the article before saying it cannot be both lol. The Bible doesn't borrow content. I have heard this so many times but if you go to the primary source of these claims you find they are bogus, and if you choose to give me a reference quote from the myth.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
Did you even read the article?

I'm afraid not. When you've gone as far down the path of spirituality as I've been, what other people have to say is pretty much laughable.

Like I said in my initial response, it's (6K years) a false attribution to what the bible conveys ... and does not.

Remember that the bible came from a time when practicing certain forms of religion would get you really dead. There's a Lot of good stuff in there, but I suspect most people will never 'see' it. There was a time of humanity long before when the bible was written. The bible is something that's barely half remembered from those days.

a reply to: Snarl

ok guru

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

From the Bible’s perspective of time for those six evocative days of Genesis, the number of our years held compressed within each of those six 24 hour days of Genesis, starting with Day One, would be, in billions of years, respectively, 7.1; 3.6; 1.8; 0.89; 0.45; 0.23.

Well darn, ain't that a coincidence?!

Unless earth is a hologram that was created 6000 years ago.

Personally, I am routing for the hologram designer to be a father and son team. The father is named Jehovah and he has a Hispanic son named Jesus.

originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
www.geraldschroeder.com...
"One of the most obvious perceived contradictions between Torah and science is the age of the universe. Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? When we add up the generations of the Bible and then add the secular rulers that followed, we come to fewer than 6000 years. Whereas, data from the Hubbell telescope or from the land based telescopes in Hawaii, indicate the number at 15 billion years plus or minus 10%. In trying to resolve this apparent conflict,

This is easy.

First read the following verse carefully:

[QUOTE]
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." -- KJV, Genesis 1:28
[END QUOTE]

Notice that key word "REPLENISH".

Man existed before man was created. This isn't the first time God created man. He did it before. Those men were wiped out. So, he again creates man and tells him to "replenish" the earth once again. To fill it up once more with men.

That's the first clue.

Consider the following verse:

[QUOTE]
"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" -- KJV, Genesis 1:14

This tells us how to tell what time it is. The lights in the sky, sun, moon, planets, stars, tell time. The positions of these lights allow us to determine the time of day, day of month, seasons of the year, when to plant, when to harvest, etc..time for things to happen, and time to take actions to profit. People who know how to tell time, are called "wise". In the old days, priests controlled the information about calendars. They told the people when to plant, when the sun would be darkened by eclipses, when to harvest. The people thought the priests were special, and magicians, and sorcerers, but they basically knew this one thing, how to tell time.

We know what is going to happen in the future, because everything repeats, and the "wise" men know what happened in the past. We know what happened in the past, because it is written down in books. It is recorded so that we can "predict" or "prophesy" the future. But, the priests recorded this information "in code". So, the ordinary person can't read the books and interpret the times. Only the priests, or "wise men", know how to interpret the books, and look at the stars, and tell what is scheduled to happen.

So, the lights in the sky tell us what is going to happen.

That's the second clue.

Then consider the following verses:

[QUOTE]
"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem," -- KJV, Matthew 2:1

"Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him." -- KJV, Matthew 2:2
[END QUOTE]

We are told that "three wise men" looked at the lights in the sky, and determined that Jesus had come.

How could they possibly "read this" in the sky?

This was not the first time Jesus came. He always comes at about the exact same time. The wise men knew this, and knew how to tell the time using the lights in the sky. That's how they knew that Jesus had come. He was "scheduled" to come right then, as he always had.

Jesus returns again and again.

That's the third clue.

Consider the following verse:

[QUOTE]
"The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels." -- KJV, Matthew 13:39
[END QUOTE]

Notice that what is called the "end of the world" is the time of "harvest".

This tells us quite clearly, man is planted on earth, like a crop. He is grown and developed like a plant. And he is harvested at the end, just like farmers do.

But, we don't only farm one crop cycle do we? After the harvest, there's always another sowing season, growing season, and harvest. It's a cyclical activity.

Same with man.

Except man's cyclical season is long.

So, how long?

Consider the following verses:

[QUOTE]
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." -- KJV, 2 Peter 3:8
[END QUOTE]

So here we get a peak into some of the "code" being used in the scriptures involving time.

One day is actually one thousand years.

So, when the book says the lord worked for "six" days and rested on the "seventh" day. That's 7 thousand years of man time. That tells us the cycle of time for the seasons of man, when God does all the work when he plants man, fertilizes man with life experiences and dramas, and harvests man, totals 7000 years.

We also know that Jesus comes twice in this cycle.

[QUOTE]
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." -- KJV, Matthew 24:34
[END QUOTE]

What is the "generation" ? It's the current crop of men in this 7000 year cycle.

Jesus came once already in this cycle 2000 years ago, but he tells us he comes again within this same generation:

[QUOTE]
"And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man." -- KJV, Luke 17:26
[END QUOTE]

Twice in every 7000 years is once every 3500 years, or that Jesus is returned/resurrected every 3 and 1/2 days in LORD time.

So, now we see that man is re-planted every 7000 years on the earth. But, the bible doesn't say how many cycles have occurred since the formation of the earth itself.

The book of Genesis mixes the creation of the earth with the creation of man together, and were it not for that one word "replenish" we would miss the essential clue, that tells us that the creation of man is a cyclical event, occurring while the same earth persists.

The Hindus believe that even the earth is re-created on a longer time scale. But, that's another story.

So, maybe the earth is 14 billion years old. Or maybe it was created just 7000 x n years ago with all the matter set to look like it had an earlier creation to scientists.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It's easier to just distrust the Bible and believe science since scientists know more about the universe at large than the goat herders who wrote the Bible knew.

originally posted by: reldra
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It can't be both. The Earth is definitely not less than 6,000 years old.

The Bible is a fantistic book. I have read it cover to cover several times. Studied it in college, but as literature. It is a mix of history, drama, love,horror, science fiction, fantasy...everything one would want in a book. But even though it contains a bit of history, it is still a work of fiction, in general.

These books, since you mention the Torah as well, went through several translations from Aramaic when very few people can even read the language.

If I wanted to say anything about the contradiction, is that one is a summary and some oral and some written tradition attempted to keep track of genealogical lines. But so many prior civilzations 'beat' the bible to most of the content.

Much of the content is borrowed from writings before it.

It can be both. That is the point.

Time can have different rates of flow for different observers. Both gravitation and velocity affect the flow of time.

Time is not the same everywhere throuout the universe (it can even loop back on itself according to the mathematics of Relativity).

I authored an ealier thread titled: "One answer to the dilemma of a seven day Creation vs Scientific views of creation", which explained things.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It's easier to just distrust the Bible and believe science since scientists know more about the universe at large than the goat herders who wrote the Bible knew.

But science has all sorts of stuff that is just ridiculously unfeasable.

Like the superluminal expansion of the universe after the Big Bang (how is that not myth?).

Or the step that goes from theories of chemical aboigenesis, to a living cell, based upon DNA coding and that replicates and metabolizes (as if that step were somehow trivial or we even had any theory as to how that could arise?).

Or how even the optimal quantum path seems to be taken in the process of photosynthesis and yet we can't explain why (but science does reveal that it is happening).

Or that science is constantly being superceded by new ideas and so is really only the current best guess, most of which will hardly last a few decades before being superceded (I have a stack of old science textbooks which are laughably wrong).

At least the Bible has remained largely unchanged and is still exactly as relevant and 'true' as it was when it was written (2,000 to 5,000 years ago).

If those "goat herders" (a largely incorrect generalization) had revelation from God (which is what the Bible purports), then it is probable that God may know a bit more than all the "scientists".

I'd say that science comes in a poor second.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

It's easier to just distrust the Bible and believe science since scientists know more about the universe at large than the goat herders who wrote the Bible knew.

But science has all sorts of stuff that is just ridiculously unfeasable.

Like the superluminal expansion of the universe after the Big Bang (how is that not myth?).

Because we have direct and observable evidence of this being the case. Present some evidence of it not being true and then we'll talk, but just remarking how unbelievable something is doesn't make it a myth.

Or the step that goes from theories of chemical aboigenesis, to a living cell, which based upon DNA coding, and that replicates and metabolizes (as if that step were somehow trivial or we even had any theory as to how that could arise?).

Science doesn't have an answer to this and it is a strawman to suggest it does. Science just doesn't care about saying "I don't know".

Or how even the optimal quantum path seems to be taken in the process photosynthesis and yet we can't explain why (but science does reveal that it is happening).

Because "I don't know" is a valid answer in science.

Or that science is constantly being superceded by new ideas and so is really only the current best guess, most of which will hardly last a few decades before being superceded.

Because that is what makes science accurate. Its willingness to admit when it is wrong and change its answers. Even if everything we know about science turns out to be wrong, we will have found tons of ways that the universe DOESN'T work.

At least the Bible has remained largely unchanged and is still exactly as relevant and 'true' as it was when it was written (2,000 to 5,000 years ago).

This is actually a HUGE detriment to its believability. It's a good thing you put true in quotes though, because "true" and "bible" don't belong in the same sentence.

If those "goat herders" (a largely incorrect generalization) had revelation from God (which is what the Bible purports), then it is likely that God might just know a bit more than all the "scientists".

And if they didn't, which is what reality suggests, then it is likely that people are just believing in superstitious myths created by people who didn't know any better.

I'd say that science comes in a poor second.

I'd say that this is a mark of confirmation bias.

To coin a popular liar, "What difference does it make?"

We're only on the planet for a few decades.

When you stop smelling the roses and wonder how old they are, it loses something.

The first thing anyone realizes when reading the account of creation is that prior to our sun and moon, our sun being the first instrument used to determine the day, the term day is used. It can not be a day without a sun and light can't either.

Either the words are not meant to be literal earth days or the whole story is subject to ridicule. If not literal says or light than what?

Let there be light, spoken before the sun exists, can not mean visual light but is more about spirit and wisdom than stars.

Days are units of time used in the myth to represent the creation of time itself. The end of the first day was the beginning of the phenomenon of time and spirit and wisdom (light) made this so. Time is a concept before death even and death a consequence of time. Living in time means that you will run out so we can gather death was not the result of sin but of God who created time before man.

The literalist is at fault for scientific ridicule of religion. Hardly ever are believers in the absolute literalness of the Bible even willing to say that about Genesis 1.

Just a minority of radicals who would be just as radical in any religion or political party or whatever organization sucks them in because of their overzealous personality. People such as these are exactly what religions want because it is clear that they will believe anything if it is presented as the truth.

But Christianity doesn't usually go around teaching the 6 day story as literal because that would insult people's intelligence which is always a problem with religious beliefs if you are told it is 100% literal when it is most often pure myth with a kernel of history or truth.

Genesis is the best example of mythology in religion. The myth of Moses authoring the Torah is one that was believed and is not today. Religious leaders know Moses was not a real person. He was a mythical figure with the attributes of previous historical and mythological figures assigned him to present him as a Hebrew savior figure and leader who was obeyed or punished by "Yahweh" the post Babylonian Empire god of "Israel" now down to 3 tribes. A new religion emerged from every change of empire because Judea was always subject to the power of the day.

a reply to: Snarl

Like I said in my initial response, it's (6K years) a false attribution to what the bible conveys ... and does not.

"When we add up the generations of the Bible and then add the secular rulers that followed, we come to fewer than 6000 years." This is where the 6000 year age comes from. But had you actually read the article you would see that it has nothing to do with young earth. It argues for old earth but a six day creation of all things. He argues that from space-time coordinates of earth we see it as 14 billion years due to relativity. From say a God's eye view of time from the beginning it would have been six days.

There was a time of humanity long before when the bible was written

Sure and before that they wrote the Bible in the stars. Its known as the Hebrew Mazzaroth . Each star in each constellation of the zodiac use to have a hebrew name, and they literally wrote their scripture in the stars this way.