Freedom for all! Except Native Americans, why?

PoY.. It's really not as you're portraying, the North American Natives are 'now' free. But as stated, not from vices, as any race is but there is a higher propensity for the NAN to alcholism and suicide. Another very interesting fact, on the res (short for reservation) they can keep thier secrets from the other invading cultures, to preserve and maintain a culture which is thiers and thier responsibility to maintain. Its sacred and if you are very lucky, or persistant, you may learn some of thier traditions.

Sar.. There's a congressional appology already in the works, sorry didn't keep the url. Also, my res in Brantford, it doesn't look like they get everything for free of taxes: provencial yes, others no.

Chokatoy.. You wouldn't guess I'm one either (and I even have a card!!!!!) For those of you that don't know, you're not a 'Indian' until you have the card. I enjoyed your use of the word "we" in your post.

OtS... You called it a slow motion suicide: how about this for thought. The current laws are written to eventually abolish those classified as Native. Point: My father was full, mother Irish, I'm 50%. My children are 25% but they will not qualify for status because they're not "at least 50 percentum blood." Eventually, there will be no more, or very very very few. Another case in point: if a 100% Sycuan marries a 100% Boronan, under the laws the child is only 50%! (tribes out here in California with casinos) Try figuring that one out and you come up with, Govt doesn't promote this classification, the goal is total assimulation.

Nygdan: YOU ARE CORRECT! Canada and the US have treaties with North American Tribes, you CANNOT make a treaty with your own Country! They are soverign and free.

As far as the casinos, I tried spurring up this topic earlier and got no responses. But my tribe, Bay of Quinte Mohawk, do not believe this is a good thing to have on the res or for the people. One may say, Why not? Isn't the money a good thing to have? Not necessarily, not always and not within my understanding but I've definately been Americanized. Which does dismay me.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by Tuatara]

Originally posted by LadyV
Yes....we can leave the reservations...but that's not as easy as it sounds. Many reservations are near 3rd world conditions, with under education and unemployment problems...there is also homelessness with limed resources and the remoteness of the areas themselves, not to mention large % of health problems When there is no hope.....there's only down...Native who live on reservations have federal programs that provide housing, health care, education, and funds for economic development, but as stated above, these programs are very inadequate causing problems

I am aware of these conditions and the sickness that some of the other posters have mentioned. Also mentioned, however, were home and family ties. And I think that works for Native Americans as well as any one else.


We lived near the St. Regis Reservation in upstate New York. Many of the young men would work off the reservation as steel workers, but then go home when the work was finished. My young son played hockey and the Reservation had a hockey team in the same league as my sons. This was the team to beat. They were so good they seldom lost a game.

The people from the reservation were out and about shopping, etc. and we often went to the reservation shopping for tax free cigarettes and gas and for the restaurants and bingo. Now there is a Casino.

I believe that we all intermingled and got along pretty good. Maybe I am naive, however.

I live here among a great number of Ojibwa and I can tell you that the problems expressed by many are the same as what you've read in previous posts in this thread.

There are a few that are good friends of mine, but their friendship does not change with the weather...they will be my companions whenever i seek to be with them. That's a clue...my 'European' friends come and go, mostly, for the silliest reasons, while a Metis I knew in my childhood is still the same friend he ever was .

Being born in Holland and coming to Canada in 1954, I have always lived either very close to a reservation or within it's boundaries, as I do now. These people have accepted me in a way that I have never been anywhere else. I couldn't tell you why, other than the fact that I feel they are no different to me. I have gone to sweatlodge ceremonies and even been included in weddings...and I was never the only European there.

Whether it was in Alberta, Ontario or the North West Territories, I have often found Native American companions.

Bottom line is that they are wonderfully warm people wherever I meet them.

Of course there are those who are in trouble...there is a place I know where the people have an abnormal amount of diabetes and it has been explained that the lack of physical excercise has caused this, because their bodies were used to burning off fat through hard work just surviving the cold northern winters. It was a tough life, but the modern way has given them a less stressful way of life and their bodies are rebelling.

There are others who seem to be bitter, and cannot wait for us to disappear. I even understand why they feel this way. The pressures to assimilate are tremendous, by heartless tearing apart of families through distant schools they had no choice but to go to...being made fun of if they spoke in their native tongues. Some of the stories about Hay River schools in the NWT would make you cry if you knew of them as I do.

But I don't want to dwell on these points...anyone interested enough can find out easily enough.

Why don't these people leave the reservations? Why would they want to? Imagine living in an untouched wilderness which provides everything needed to live?

I admire their patience with us...they know this land better than we do and they know that someday we will either become like them or leave. They understand how to be accepted by the land, it seems we only know how to subdue the land so that is does our bidding.

Over the centuries to come here in North America, how much chance do you suspect we have to keep our way of life? And vise versa, if the land ever did take back control, who do you think will still be living here?

[edit on 18-1-2005 by masqua]

[edit on 18-1-2005 by masqua]

Originally posted by Tuatara
Chokatoy.. You wouldn't guess I'm one either (and I even have a card!!!!!) For those of you that don't know, you're not a 'Indian' until you have the card. I enjoyed your use of the word "we" in your post... As far as the casinos, I tried spurring up this topic earlier and got no responses. But my tribe, Bay of Quinte Mohawk, do not believe this is a good thing to have on the res or for the people. One may say, Why not? Isn't the money a good thing to have? Not necessarily, not always and not within my understanding but I've definately been Americanized. Which does dismay me.

I am going to start at the end and work back up, Tuatara. I too am Americanized, and dismayed about it. Very happy to hear from you. I thought a long time about the casinos back in the 90's. People on the West Coast were clearcutting their backyards and spirit groves to buy crappy cars that rusted in the front yard after a couple years. I was off living in a traditional camp then, happy. Money is another Americanization, and lie. After many years and many tragedies I will not burden a brother with, I wound up urbanized. Still grow corn, but if you don't pay rent, you go to jail. Could go back to the woods, but... so. Folks up on that coast asked us all about casinos. I saw the dead forest. I said, 'I figure it could bring in what you need without killing everything maybe.' But you, Tuatara are right. Keep wild and free as long as you can. We get beat up, we surrender. On the surface. I am proud of you and your People. Proud of you.

About blood quantum cards. I know fullbloods who do not have them; the Americans 'decide' who is Indian on the basis of Treaty compliance. Now Traditionals often won't trade land for money, and want nothing whatsoever to do with 'authority'. They have no recognition by the Enemy as Native. Nor do they want any. I know others with 1/2500th Native blood who have kids at University on scholarship and free health care. I asked an Elder about this. He made me bring him a glass of water and a salt shaker. He shook the salt on the table and picked up a couple grains of salt and stirred them in the water. 'You drink it', he said to me. 'No,' I said. 'Why?' He said. 'Because its salt water' I said. 'It's only part salt water' he said. You are either Native, or not. 'Blood quantum percentage' is an American lie. How you live is what matters, not what your Enemy tells you. How you are in your heart. Grow corn.

To you other guys listening, our Enemy is not any race, or person. It is an Idea, that came over here a few hundred years ago. We are opposed to this Idea, that makes slaves of men and a commodity of the Earth. We are opposed through the agency of a different Idea.

Got short hair now. But inside, nothing else has changed. Maybe you and I will fish together someday. Good to hear from you. And you too Mahree and Masquaa. Good.

BTW, there is a big Pow-wow every year in England. Thousands of people. A bunch of our people got taken over there in the 1700's. Thanks for the nice fire, Simon.

[edit on 18-1-2005 by Chakotay]

There are 313 Indian Reservations in the United States, all overseen by the U.S. Department of The Interior. The Indian Reservations have a "nation within a nation" status -- they are bound by the U.S. Constitution and certain federal laws (like the 50 states & D.C., they can't make deals with foreign governments, for example), but otherwise they are free to run their own governments, even if the state(s) the reservations reside in don't like some of the laws they pass.

Indian Reservations have their own governments (some have tribal councils, some have legislatures, etc. -- each one is different), complete with flag, seal, license plates, police force, and so forth. If you get stopped on a road in the Souix Reservation for speeding, for example, you won't be greeted by a South Dakota state trooper -- it will be a Souix police officer.

While it is true that Indian Reservations were originally designed as prison camps (not the U.S.'s finest hour, to be sure), that has not been true for a very long time. They are political entities now, and not only can Indians come and go as they please, but so too can non-Indians work there as well. (Often as teachers, firefighters, etc., for example). And, of course, they have all the rights and responsibilities that everyone else in the U.S. does under the U.S. Constitution.

Chakotay thanks for your opinion on Thomas Paine, I thought it was GREAT!
I wanna know more about native american religions can you help me?
I just hope their culture isn't dying out, then how can we learn any more about human history?

Blah, Blah, Blah. You people are exacerbating the premise of this question. Okay, Native Americans where I used to live were allowed to have free housing in nice homes that the Cherokee tribe either bought from as a repo from the bank or built themselves with money from business' on their property. They have free health, they can visit the doctor whenever they want, the list of benefits never ends......free college education...........more more more. I wish I was a card carrying Native American. I am Kickapoo but am unable to prove it to get my card.

very good question ??? Freedom for all ...waht about the Native Americans...Im sure many ppl have asked that question and none of the SUA Presidents ever answered it ... not even "precious Clinton, the friend of minorities"

I wanna know more about native american religions can you help me?

A good start it to look at the basics first, To get an understanding,

The Seven Teachings

Honesty

to achieve honesty within yourself
to recognize who and what you are
do this and you can be honest with all others

Humility
-
humble yourself and recognize that no matter
how much you think you know, you know
very little of all the universe.

Truth
-
to learn truth, to live with truth and to
walk with truth, to speak truth

Wisdom
-
to have wisdom is to know the difference between good
and bad and to know the result of your actions

Love
-
unconditional love to know that when people are weak
they need your love the most, that your love is given freely and you
cannot put conditions on it or your love is not true

Respect
-
respect others, their beliefs and respect yourself.
If you cannot show respect you cannot expect respect to be
given

Bravery

- to be brave is to do something right even if
you know it's going to hurt you.

Also i like to say to those intrested is learn one of our many languages, this keeps them alive

And theres a powwow here in the UK for the victims of the tsunami diaster
on the 5th of feb, see calender for events www.centreland.org.uk...

Originally posted by Prince_Machiavelli
more more more. I wish I was a card carrying Native American. I am Kickapoo but am unable to prove it to get my card.

Not all NAs collect government help....I never have! In order to do that you have to have a relative that has lived on a reservation between a set time frame....what's your problem? I raised 3 kids with no help from anyone....as has many NAs in this country! You sound po'ed because you can't get....more, more, more.....then complain about others getting it!

Whats happening on the reservations is the same thing that is happening in our inner city,people stay because of family and the sence of community. Native Americans have a lot of pride in trying to maintain their culture even though that is the place that is beating them down. The inner city is the same where minorities are locked into a false sence of security in a community gone bad. I have said this before and stand behind the thought that the more programs and free rides that you give people the easier it is for them to fall into the drug and alchool trap that haunts so many otherwise good people. Think about it if you like a conspiracy would it not be a great way to keep people under your control by offering meager handouts low paying jobs and all the drugs and alchool your community can handle. But I know that is not possible,Is It ?

Originally posted by Prince_Machiavelli
Blah, Blah, Blah. You people are exacerbating the premise of this question. Okay, Native Americans where I used to live were allowed to have free housing in nice homes that the Cherokee tribe either bought from as a repo from the bank or built themselves with money from business' on their property. They have free health, they can visit the doctor whenever they want, the list of benefits never ends......free college education...........more more more. I wish I was a card carrying Native American. I am Kickapoo but am unable to prove it to get my card.

Prince "Kill those close to me", there are those that have more than others, there are those that only want, there are those willing to put forth an effort against all odds. There are those that do not wish to know, or acknowledge what happened, ask a KKK member about the slavery issue and you'll understand.
Since I made the fruit basket of apples and oranges, I should let you know it was the "blah blah blah" that hit my button. You speak of "they" as others and you state that you are Kickapoo. Did you not see my post? I mentioned the fact that you are not an "Indian" unless you have the card, you can thank your/our Govt for that!
I get no direct benefits. The one benefit I did get, two actually, 1st- I was able to join the Minority Engineering Program and got classes right after the football team- so going to college was quicker. 2nd- I can cross the US/Canada border without a passport or visa.. End of story.

You can go on believing that they get the best of everything, that they can get a free ride or that life is just peaches and cream for them. That is up to you. Lady V made a very good point in a round-about way, it doesn't matter what you are (nationality wise) you can become what you want, if you want it bad eneough.

Tuataras Third Eye
(Do you know what a Tuatara is?)

Originally posted by sardion2000
Now at least in Canada Native Americans get it pretty sweet, its just they are too pridefull to take most of the assistance that is available to them as it seems too much like begging to them(them as in the Canadian Natives I have met personally)

What kind of assistance do you mean?
I take very little, and it's because I don't need it.
It's also become increasingly more difficult to get funding from your band for post-secondary education.
I think saying we get it pretty sweet is an overstatement considering what was taken from us at the beginning.

Natives in Canada get pretty much Tax-Free everything. Lots of 0% interest loans. Land Grants(allthough the land is in the Middle of Nowhere..) etc.

It's hardly tax free everything. We don't have to pay PST but there's still the income tax, CPP (Unless you work on a reserve), GST, and most other taxes.... free prescription drugs/eyewear. Taxation is different when on a reserve, but the vast majority aren't. Why? There's no economic opportunity, no education opportunities beyond elementary school or highschool, amongst other things.

I believe the major problem with Natives right now is that thier Culture is dying out.

And there are plenty who work their hardest to make damn sure it doesn't.
There are plenty of traditions still alive and carrying on, but they're not always noticed unless you're involved in them.

Originally posted by BSB2005
Chakotay thanks for your opinion on Thomas Paine, I thought it was GREAT!
I wanna know more about native american religions can you help me?
I just hope their culture isn't dying out, then how can we learn any more about human history?

American freedom is largely a reflection of the encounter between the newcomers from Europe and the direct observation of a truly free indigenous people, BSB.

Our culture is not dying out, which is an advantage of allying one's self with the forces of Nature: Nature bats last. Our culture is not obvious, though: I wear a feathered turban at Pow-Wow, but not on the street. When I pull out a stick of cooked dry jerky, the guys around me don't notice like they would if I was chewing on a bagel. I hunt with a bow during deer season, but the guys at the sport shop don't point and say 'look at the Indian'. We blend in.

Now there are four ways to learn our religion.

First is directly from Nature. Go out, study naturalism in your local bioregion. As you learn, you will find traces of our presence past and present. As you learn, think to yourself: how can I restore and protect these habitats. And how could I live here without destroying them? What is edible and usable in a sustainable way, and how did the people and animals who live here do that? You can't practice a lot of ancient ways on public lands, but you can look, and listen quietly, and think.

Second, is directly from the People. Now you can find us, if you pray about it a lot. But its not easy. There are some enterprises out there; now is the time to warn you about 'plastic' medicine men. Fakes for money. Trust your instincts. There are traditional camps especially associated with preservation works; and some 'survival schools' that while commercial are run by real people for good. Check the 'pow-wow' calendars.

Third, is from books and media including the web. I can reccomend to you the following:
The Way It Is, by Corbin Harney
The Pomo Indians of Northern California, by Naturegraph Press.
Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden
See link below for a website than can help.

Fourth, find a living history museum nearby.

You may have a clue to your ancestry. If so, try to learn from your people. Then, learn from people in the bioregion where you live. We are a diverse people; I will sum up my own beliefs for you before I go:

We must live in harmony with the Earth, and each other.

That's it. Deceptively simple, eh? You will see the emphasis on neolithic survival skills in what I have written; this is the way we have come, and it is the way to which Nature will return us, sooner or later. But our religion is not primitive: the Cherokee Nation has aerospace electronics factories and so on. We just use the minimum tech neccesary to get any particular job done, to conserve energy and resources for returning to the Stars (but that is another story for another night, and I have talked for too long).

Thank you for asking BSB, and bless you.

PS- Asala has a great point about learning your language. We also have a universal intertribal language.

[edit on 20-1-2005 by Chakotay]

I think it's insult to injury really, have the gummint break treaties with you, take just about all your land, and reserve a tiny bit of it for you.

I don't know what black people are screaming about. Native Americans are worse off and they're not complaining nearly as much.

I'm part Cherokee myself. I don't live on a reservation though.

Then you have Leonard Peltier, a Native American who's a political prisoner, doing time in Leavenworth for a double murder he did not commit--murder of two FBI agents 30 years ago. I think he knows who did it but he's not going to tell.

Before you have me pegged as a liberal--I'm not. I just hate injustice, period.

I have a T-shirt my mom gave me, has a picture of some Native Americans with muskets, and it says "Homeland Security--Fighting Terrorism since 1492." My mom also has bumper stickers saying "Free Leonard Peltier," "Custer Died for Your Sins," and "Indians Discovered America."

Originally posted by Amethyst

I have a T-shirt my mom gave me, has a picture of some Native Americans with muskets, and it says "Homeland Security--Fighting Terrorism since 1492."

Ya, I saw that one a few months back at a powwow. it's a funny shirt, makes a good point, too.

point blank.....europeans came over(thank god i'm not english) came over and decided the natives were "uncivilized"...forget that they knew more about medicine and the enviroment than the europeans.and slaughtered them...cuz we're america...f**k yeah!!!!! boy could we use some native values about now!!!!!!!! it's a mess guys..always has been!

This thread started with: "Why are Native Americans still stuck on reservations? Why doesn't the government set them free?"

Why don't the native americans set themselves free? They have just as much capability as you or I or any other citizen to go out and seek the "American Dream" (whatever the h*ll that is)....If they want off the reservations, they need to get a job off the reservation and then move off the reservation. Just like poor minorities in the ghettos. If they want out, they have to work to be able to get out.

My 19 year old son doesn't want to work. Does that mean I should set him up with his own apartment and pay his bills and buy his groceries?? NO. It means he needs to get off his butt and make a life for himself. If he doesn't like living under my roof and my rules, then he certainly is capable of making a life for himself...right now he's just too lazy to do so...and looks for every excuse possible to explain his lack of success at succeeding on his own.

The native americans are doing the same thing. If they want off the reservation, then get off the reservation....simple!

It's awful what the "white man" has done to the Native Americans over the last many centuries. Look at Christopher Columbus. We celebrate Christopher Columbus Day and what was he? He was the one who started the damn slaughter of the Natives here, then the French, then the British.....then when we became colonies and then had our revolution, well hell, we just kept up the tradition. I don't need to get into everything that was done to these peoples over the last 500 years. Everyone knows what happened even if it's not in the wonderful history books. Mass genocide by any means possible. What did our ancestors do? Kill off about 90% of this countries natives?

Man's ability to destroy man is incredible. All the blacks used as slaves and then when it wasn't allowed any longer, they were still treated like sh#$ and slaughtered for no reason and still are treated like third class citizens today in many parts of the world. Hitler slaughtered anyone that didn't fit the Arian profile, the Turks slaughtered the Armenians in 1915.....genocide of about 6 million people right there....etc, etc and it still goes on today in many parts of the world and it will never end......

i noticed the high rate of alcoholism and sucide among native americans was mentioned and why they don't just leave the reservations. these people have very few family members left,they were swindled,and some survived a terrible genocide......i wonder why suicide is so common among them....and self-medication. hello! they are still very discriminated against,even in this country of supposed equal rights.