laws don't deter criminals.

An argument among some liberals is that the solution to mass shootings in the United States is to ban some or all guns. This is nonsense. Passing laws to deter criminals is a contradictory act.

THE WRONG TARGET ARGUMENT:
Premise 1-All causes of mass shootings within the United States are cases of mental illness and mental illness only.
Premise 2-Banning all or some guns will not cure mental illness.
Conclusion-Therefore, banning some or all guns will not solve mass shootings.

Now at this point a person may object, "but they can't do a mass shooting if they don't have a gun!" To that I give me next argument.
THE ARGUMENT OF SUPPLY AND ACCESIBILITY:
Premise 1-The supply and accessibility of a popular commodity has never diminished in the United States due to making the commodity illegal.
Premise 2-Guns are a popular commodity in the United States.
Conclusion-Therefore guns, likely, would still have suppliers and be easily accessible.

THE ARGUMENT OF CONTRADICTION:
Premise 1-All cases of passing laws to stop criminals is contradictory.
Premise 2-Banning all or some guns is an intention to stop criminals.
Conclusion-Therefore, banning all or some guns to stop criminals is contradictory.

Agree or disagree with my arguments. If you disagree you need to give a rebuttal.

a reply to: Aristotelian1

Mass shootings are almost solely happening in the US on a regular basis, most but not all other country's have laws that prevent mental sick people or criminals to obtain guns, and looking at the missing mass shootings in those country's, laws or bans do work.

It's tricky in the US though, as there are already 300 mil+ guns in the hands of the public so laws and bans would have no immediate effect, it would take decades or more to see an effect.

I am completely and wholeheartedly against completely banning guns and the narrative that the president is trying to weave out of EVERY tragedy. It's to the point that I don't see these as tragedies anymore. It's just a new event the media will try to spin into a political narrative. HOWEVER with that being said there needs to be some sort of mental screening before these people can get guns. It's already been shown a good chunk of shooters have mental issues. Me personally? I cannot understand why such measures don't ALREADY EXIST.

Will it fix these problems over night? No. But most of our problems won't be.

originally posted by: Mianeye
a reply to: Aristotelian1

Mass shootings are almost solely happening in the US on a regular basis, most but not all other country's have laws that prevent mental sick people or criminals to obtain guns, and looking at the missing mass shootings in those country's, laws or bans do work.

It's tricky in the US though, as there are already 300 mil+ guns in the hands of the public so laws and bans would have no immediate effect, it would take decades or more to see an effect.

Laws and bans always work? In all places? Look at the war on drugs in the United States. Did that work? Saying "it worked In country X, therefore it will work in country Y is a non sequitur.

I would attempt to steal the Crown Jewels everyday If I wouldn't get time for it so yes the law has stopped me from owning my rightful belongings.

A stupid argument at best.

If no laws exist then of course it would be impossible to ever be a criminal, because there are no laws to break.

I like the liberal point you try to make. From the people I've spoken to, mostly it had been conservatives that have been for removing some gun rights.

But I bet to you they wouldn't be "real" conservatives. Am I doing this right? (Pun).

a reply to: Mianeye

HOWEVER with that being said there needs to be some sort of mental screening before these people can get guns. It's already been shown a good chunk of shooters have mental issues. Me personally? I cannot understand why such measures don't ALREADY EXIST

Since mental illness develops over time, I mean that crazy people are not born crazy, how often do you test everyone?
Every year?
Every day?

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: Mianeye

HOWEVER with that being said there needs to be some sort of mental screening before these people can get guns. It's already been shown a good chunk of shooters have mental issues. Me personally? I cannot understand why such measures don't ALREADY EXIST

Since mental illness develops over time, I mean that crazy people are not born crazy, how often do you test everyone?
Every year?
Every day?

No...you give everyone guns and wait for Darwin to sort it out....

originally posted by: Mianeye
a reply to: Aristotelian1

Mass shootings are almost solely happening in the US on a regular basis, most but not all other country's have laws that prevent mental sick people or criminals to obtain guns, and looking at the missing mass shootings in those country's, laws or bans do work.

But if you also look at the postings that are made by people in other countries where said laws exist, it also rapidly becomes clear that said people from said countries have given up more than just their freedom and most of them are, in fact, robots who say the same thing over and over every time they post.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: Mianeye
a reply to: Aristotelian1

Mass shootings are almost solely happening in the US on a regular basis, most but not all other country's have laws that prevent mental sick people or criminals to obtain guns, and looking at the missing mass shootings in those country's, laws or bans do work.

But if you also look at the postings that are made by people in other countries where said laws exist, it also rapidly becomes clear that said people from said countries have given up more than just their freedom and most of them are, in fact, robots who say the same thing over and over every time they post.

Nice.......so pretty much everyone but you and those who agree with you and you specifically...... are robots....

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: Mianeye
a reply to: Aristotelian1

Mass shootings are almost solely happening in the US on a regular basis, most but not all other country's have laws that prevent mental sick people or criminals to obtain guns, and looking at the missing mass shootings in those country's, laws or bans do work.

But if you also look at the postings that are made by people in other countries where said laws exist, it also rapidly becomes clear that said people from said countries have given up more than just their freedom and most of them are, in fact, robots who say the same thing over and over every time they post.

France has some of the strictest gun laws on thr planet yet the Paris shooters still managed to get assault rifles. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean people won't be able to buy them. All it means is it usually goes into the black market which is regulated by criminals. Look at prohibition in thr US as an example. They banned alcohol thr mob said wow we can start selling alcohol and make a huge profit. Oddly during prohibition alcohol consumption increased.

I think this is human nature if you can go to the store and buy beer anytIme you don't have the urge to stock up and many times pass on it all together. But make it illegal and suddenly you are stockpiling it in your basement and you tend to drink more to justify the fact you have it.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

AMERICA FREEDOM!! great but what have you done with it? you all let it all go...

theantimedia.org...

a reply to: BrianFlanders

But if you also look at the postings that are made by people in other countries where said laws exist, it also rapidly becomes clear that said people from said countries have given up more than just their freedom and most of them are, in fact, robots who say the same thing over and over every time they post.

We have strict gun laws with ZERO loss of freedom, so that's complete BS, and no we are not robots, but use common sense looking at the whole world in a perspective.

If i should limit it to my country with strict gun laws, we have all the rights to own guns, though it requires a lot to get the permits, so we are keeping the guns away from those who don't need them, which results in a much safer environment than if guns were easily available like in the US.

To put it lightly, we don't need guns for protection cause the criminals have very little or no guns.

We do have gang shooting occasionally, but they use their illegal guns on each other and not the public.

a reply to: Mianeye

Some act like Freedom = lax gun laws....or thats the only freedom they care about, only If it effects them.

originally posted by: TheKnightofDoom
a reply to: Mianeye

Some act like Freedom = lax gun laws....or thats the only freedom they care about, only If it effects them.

Actually, I don't own a gun or want a gun. And I care about all freedom. Which is why I care about gun rights even though banning guns would not directly affect me in any way. Because I actually believe that when other people lose rights, my rights will not be far behind. So I would hope that everyone who cares about freedom would spend a little bit of brainpower contemplating the fact that lending their support to tyrants (even selectively) results in less freedom for everyone and contributes significantly to the inertia of tyranny in the long run.

I thought all laws were to deter crime or at least keep us safer.
Traffic lights and speed limits come to mind.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

originally posted by: butcherguy
a reply to: Mianeye

HOWEVER with that being said there needs to be some sort of mental screening before these people can get guns. It's already been shown a good chunk of shooters have mental issues. Me personally? I cannot understand why such measures don't ALREADY EXIST

Since mental illness develops over time, I mean that crazy people are not born crazy, how often do you test everyone?
Every year?
Every day?

No...you give everyone guns and wait for Darwin to sort it out....

I asked a serious question, hoping for a serious answer.
Since I didn't get one, what am I left to think?
Maybe my question was too difficult.

reply to OP title...

laws create criminals. Without laws, there would be no criminals- in the literal sense.

Having said that, we're all criminals on one level or another, as in the US we have so many laws there's no official count of them, because we're not capable of counting them all.

Let that sink in...

originally posted by: Mianeye
a reply to: BrianFlanders

We have strict gun laws with ZERO loss of freedom,...

You have a warped sense of freedom.

...so we are keeping the guns away from those who don't need them, ...

Who are you to tell a law abiding citizen that they do not need a gun? That's freedom to you? Try telling that to the person who you deem doesn't need a gun.

To put it lightly, we don't need guns for protection cause the criminals have very little or no guns.

Maybe you don't need a gun. Maybe someone else does. Your choice should not override theirs.

a reply to: Mianeye

We do have gang shooting occasionally, but they use their illegal guns on each other and not the public.

So , with that one statement you backtracked on just about everything. The criminals have illegal guns. So how , pray tell ,with the strict gun laws did they get them ?