Question for the Spiritually Enlightened

a reply to: namelesss

Originally posted by Nameless
It is all ego to sally forth to preach 'truth' to others.
The 'Enlightened' do no such thing.

I never mentioned anything about “preaching” to anyone in either my OP or any of my other posts…I only talked about "guiding" people…

From My OP below…

Originally posted by Joecroft
Should we enlightened ones, try to help guide everyone out there into “the truth”…? And when I say everyone, I mean to the best of our ability…

And…

Originally posted by Joecroft
These types of people fit into the mould of that wise saying “when the student is ready the teacher will arrive”…and are clearly ready to listen and be guided. I say guided because I’m a big believer in not forcing any truth onto any individual…

It’s all there in my OP and my follow up post where I clarified a few extra details…

Originally posted by Nameless
If you live in unconditional Love/Enlightenment, your light will shine far and wide, and people will approach you like moths to the flame.
'They' will ask 'you' what you got going!

Yes, this is true for those who are open to it, as they will approach you; but those who come from group type (A) i.e. the ones who are already trapped in a religion (X)…will invariably not approach you, regardless of how beautiful your light shines…partly because they believe they’re already in the truth…

Originally posted by Nameless
Then, then if you feel the need to run your mouth, feel free, they asked for it. They can learn all they need just from watching you and your life!

You can only learn so much from watching someone, but in order to truly learn you have to interact with people and connect with them on a personal level…problem is…group type (A) aren’t looking for that type of interaction with anyone other than their own clique in most cases…

Now I’m not saying group (A) are bad people, I’m just pointing out that there is a clear difference in terms of the mechanics involved with helping them find truth compared to the other group.

Originally posted by Nameless
Enlightened people do not discriminate between 'types' of people, their Love is UNCONDITIONAL!

Just because I mentioned 2 different groups in my OP, doesn’t mean I was discriminating against them. For example, I could group people between Doctors and non Doctors, does that mean I’m discriminating…no it doesn’t!… That’s just me pointing out the differences between the 2 groups…

If I want both groups to find truth (which I do) how can I be considered to be discriminating against either group. Also discrimination is where you actually treat one group worse than another…

My OP is essentially asking how we should approach each group in order to help them find truth. My OP question isn’t even taking a stance either way towards favouring one group over the other, so it can’t possibly be discriminating, as it’s simply asking the question…

But if someone answered the question by stating we should only help those in group (B) then it could possibly be argued that they were discriminating against group (A)…but in no way can the person asking the question be considered to be discriminating…


The reason I put them into 2 groups had nothing to do with discrimination, but more to do with the pointing out the differences involved between the 2 groups, with one being easier to reach and the other being much harder to reach. I’m not suggesting the differences make one group better than another in terms of the individual people themselves. But the differences are important in terms of how each group can be reached etc…

But the thing is, I had to frame the question that way in my OP, in order to get people to think about the differences…The 2 groups are a key component to the question…I couldn’t have worded those parts any other way…

Originally posted by Nameless
Thus your 'enlightenment/unconditional Love' sounds more like seductive, self-serving ego, to me.

Seriously, if that’s what you think then you’ve shown no level of enlightenment or any discernment whatsoever!!!…


First of all, I’m asking THE QUESTION in my OP…I’m NOT even proposing or forcing any solution onto anyone…I’m just asking the question…

Secondly, I haven’t even outlined in detail what my enlightenment actually is; so I’m not even sure how you can say it sounds like anything!!! Let alone me serving my own ego…

I did not feel the need to go into any further detail defining the word “enlightenment”, because the question is asking other “Enlightened Ones”, what THEY think, and what there perspective on the question is…

The only aspects of enlightenment that I defined was in these posts below…

Originally posted by Joecroft
This is a question to those who have spiritually awoken. To those who have seen the truth within themselves irrespective of how they have arived there. And if you’re wondering what I’m getting at, see the link in my signature (Spiritual Wisdom Quotes)…

Originally posted by Joecroft
To those wondering what the enlightenment is, the short version would be knowing that we are “Spiritual Beings”, having a “Human Experience”… but in reality the enlightenment, also encompasses pointing out things that are false using wisdom and knowledge.

And Thirdly, just to reiterate what I was saying further up… I was never talking about forcing anything onto anybody…so you’re mistaken in thinking I was suggesting that enlightened people should go around “preaching”…when the words I specifically used in my OP was “guiding”…


And finally the question in my OP is all about Heart, in other words it’s a question that comes from the heart and can’t possibly be about serving any ego…anyone who can’t see that…is blind…

I mean, even if I made some errors in the OP (which I may have done), the overall question comes from the heart, as it’s about helping people find truth…

Hopefully you will take on board all that I’ve outlined here, and will re-think what you’ve written above, about this being about me serving my own ego…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

He may be in group A

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: namelesssAnd finally the question in my OP is all about Heart, in other words it’s a question that comes from the heart and can’t possibly be about serving any ego…anyone who can’t see that…is blind…

"The 'heart' is deceitful above all things!" - Bible
What could it possibly mean?

Happy trails

originally posted by: Joecroft
I did not feel the need to go into any further detail defining the word “enlightenment”, because the question is asking other “Enlightened Ones”, what THEY think, and what there perspective on the question is…

There are no 'enlightened ones' - true enlightenment is the realisation that there are no ones. 'Ones' implies more than one!!!
There is just light - this is the light appearing - this is enlightenment right here and now - there is nothing other than the light.

a reply to: Itisnowagain
There ARE "enlightened ones" and it is true that if one thinks "ha ha ha, I'm enlightened and you're not, I'm better" then that person is indeed NOT enlightened. However, I do not believe that was JC's intentions.

a reply to: veracity
There are no 'enlightened ones'.
There is only ever what is happening - light appearing as this (whatever appears to be happening).

It has been said that 'the father and son are one' - the father is the witness of what appears and the son is the appearance - 'they' arise as one seamless happening.

a reply to: namelesss

Well the inner and outer the two temples which one judges? At birth the inner does not judge the outer it just senses pain but that is a reflection from a face in how to respond to it... but eventually that contact becomes discomfort and crying lets one know hey discomfort over here.

Then the words form to describe and communicate discomfort, then that translates over into judgement and bias...

Cease the inner and outer judgment and then what does one think happens? The heart on the inside turns greedy to the outside losing itself, in greed, hate, and delusional ignorance.

Purify the inner and outer heart expression and it comes to understand unconditional love.

That is simply the heart cakra or wheel. These energies are seen inside and outside in expression of being to the exterior world and in the expression of being on the inner world... body speech and mind.

Those 7 seals... are already in the lamb or child in zen such a state gets called zen mind or beginners mind. Of course the crown cakra contains all jewels of the 7 below in the golden light of being. This is the attainment of the rainbow body or nirvana. As there is a form but a spiritual being in a constant father/mother union.

Buddhas are born out of sentient beings in a transformation not sentient beings born out of Buddhas.

The entire universe is a school... get done on one you enter another plane of being.

Duality takes place inside and outside of these various planes of existence. The duality is in the opposites of extremes of a god and a devil, or the fight of divas and asuras of these two opposing teams or energies in a black and white existence or all pervasive space. The the center of those two is the true jewel... neither god nor devil but the very gates to the inner and outer itself. So do good fences make good neighbors?

Well the right hand and left hand of the two are just male energies and then there are the other two that are male and female energies... so what happens when the matriarch and patriarch families decide their children? Well those kicked in and out in this realm of the 33 that is considered broken? the two sides either constantly marry or come together at some table of understanding.

So when left hand and right hand stand in opposition for too long then there is an attachment of greed and hate for a very very long time between the two families until a decision is made... on the two inner and outer but in either sides there can be an issue in understanding.

One hand one side, one hand the other... one half a mind in one being, one half a mind in the other...

This is the depiction of the Southern cross in the sky... that becomes the mind seal in Buddhism which is way way older than any of the Abraham religions which has been a foot in the door for a very very long time. Or someone sitting on a throne dominating the bridge between light and darkness.

Of course after the balance that animism once was became disturbed that separation was the proverbial garden... opposing sides of a table where the heaven sides feed each other and the hell sides try to take off of each others plate.

In Egyptian hieroglyphics this is shown as the reverse hand and the male and female union in the mind that has been trained into one of bias.

Of course turning the wheel of life and death is the cakra of becoming between living and dying... and the one with the foot in the door is the one trying to control the wheel not aware of the other side trying to control it as both go in and out upsetting the natural balance in this being or cycle of life...

The Bon religion is a branch of this and it has been around as long as animism... the spirals often found are meant as galaxies or the mind seal in motion that every religion has attached to it in some way shape or form.

Of course domination is neither a male or female aspect but it is also not one of peace but they can come to balance in those born from these sentient beings.

Beyond this entire cycle are many beings... but in pure abodes inside and outside in non judgment, unless of course there is a need to send one side or the other for balance... there never was a need until the moon struck the planet on the 33rd parallel causing a dimensional rift in these two areas that have been confused into how it works.

When it comes together the spiritual and material look to be in chaos and disorder or of course in opposition outside of this opposition there is a balance in the higher realms outside of this being that is either attached to form or formlessness, non attachment to either in any of the 5 consciousness's then there is simply the mind aware of all of the chaos but not stained by the chaos and of course non attachment to any of those modes or expressions of being that appears as thoughts in the mind or mirror in expression of being. Clear mind to the inner and the outer becomes not attachment to either or it is simply existence and an attachment to one of the 5 senses... that appears in the mind that blocks the awareness of this pure state of being.

Attachment to concepts are these clouds that block reason or these two energies of male and female... these different levels are sorted via karma of being which are choices by body, speech, and mind... these 3 sow the seeds that plant ones own garden no matter how many choices of intent, in positive and negative instead of in balance.

Those who wish to control and those that wish to own others are those energies and the expressions in that chaos of being is in body speech and mind expression. It is unique to each individual and of course it can take many many lifetimes to realize such a thing, in one instant in one billion lifetimes to infinity the choice is always yours to make with each choice so the intent is the karma of those choices so whom is robbing whom in those judgments?

is one of the three Guanas: (tendencies, qualities, attributes) of 3 types of beings: sattva, rajas and tamas.

Any mixture of those are formed as kama itself... in existence of ones being. Which forms an entire cycle of inner and outer, when in actuality there is neither inner or outer.

Those awake to this become aware of how all of this operates... and the choice between those families are made after greed, hate and delusion ends.

When the "christ" died as we all do in either awareness or unawareness we are asked a question; and there is a chance to continue or not but it is based on judgment but such a thing is not ones own to make. Discernment shows that the judgment we make on another comes back to us, and that is the wheel or kama of ones own to keep spinning in chaos or destruction in these different dimensions.

Of being.

Ask a simple question, get a complicated answer huh?

a reply to: namelesss

Originally posted by Nameless
"The 'heart' is deceitful above all things!" - Bible
What could it possibly mean?

Happy trails

Using an out of context cherry picked Bible verse is pretty ridiculous…You can’t just take one verse from the Bible and use it suggest that my heart is deceitful and that this somehow ultimately proves that my Op was coming from a place of Ego…that’s just crazy reasoning…

If you take that verse as the Gospel truth, then that means no ones heart can ever be trusted with anything!!!…but that’s just not in tune with reality…it’s just too dogmatic to rigidly think that way and apply it to every individual in every type of situation…

Telling an individual who has done a really good deed that “the heart is deceitful above all things”…Does not prove or show that that person was really acting from a place of ego or from some evil ulterior motive…It just doesn’t prove anything…

Now in most cases we can’t know for certain a persons true motives…but based on the question itself in my OP, it’s fairly self evident to most people who have participated in this thread, that’s it not coming from a place of ego… And for the record you’re the only poster so far who has stated this…

As for you quoting the Bible, it has been edited many times and there are aspects contained within in it that come from men’s carnal understanding of God. There is some Wisdom of God encoded into the Bible but overall it’s a mixture of Truth and misunderstandings IMO…

The Bible also states that people are born sinful, and that any righteousness we do is like filthy rags compared to God…are you going to quote those scriptures too…to help support your argument…

Now you just claimed in your first reply on this thread that I was serving my own ego…you also made a number of other errors regarding the content of My Op…maybe it was the combination of those errors which led to you thinking that way…Either way, I’ve tried to give you very good reasons in my first reply as to why that’s not the case…

You need to rectify this situation, by doing _________(Fill in the Blank)...or by showing some other evidence which helps to prove your point…


- JC

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Originally posted by itsnowagain
There are no 'enlightened ones' - true enlightenment is the realisation that there are no ones. 'Ones' implies more than one!!!
There is just light - this is the light appearing - this is enlightenment right here and now - there is nothing other than the light.

You’ve taking what I’ve written too literally….

There are “enlightened ones” out there…they are the ones (Ones = A collective of Individual people) who ALL recognize that we are all One in Spirit…


- JC

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: namelesss
... Then the words form to describe and communicate discomfort, then that translates over into judgement and bias...

Language, words, are all features of 'thought'.
All 'thought' is necessarily of dualistic nature.
It is like looking at something through a grid, and imagining all sorts of 'in' vs 'out', 'good' vs 'evil', 'tall' vs 'short'... ad infinitum.
It is not possible for the duality of thought/imagination to accurately display the Here! Now! Holistic nature of Reality!
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One!
Reality/Truth/God, the Universe... is One!
Never 'believe' what you think!
Therein lies madness!

Cease the inner and outer judgment and then what does one think happens? The heart on the inside turns greedy to the outside losing itself, in greed, hate, and delusional ignorance.

Not at all! I can tell that you are hypothesizing, let me share experience;
there is no 'judgment' in unconditional Love!
When you don't judge, then you are no 'better' than anyone else. Thus, no greed, no thievery...
In unconditional Love/Enlightenment, we are all experienced as One!
All Love is Self Love, all hate is Self hate, all judgment is Self judgment!

Purify the inner and outer heart expression and it comes to understand unconditional love.

Unconditional Love cannot be 'understood' by dualistic thought, it is either experienced (Knowledge) or one is ignorant (lack of experience).

That is simply the heart cakra or wheel. These energies are seen inside and outside in expression of being to the exterior world and in the expression of being on the inner world... body speech and mind.

So whats the difference between your 'inner' world and your 'outter' world; the inside of your eyelids?
How bourgeoise, another 'apparent' dualism...

Duality takes place inside and outside of these various planes of existence.

Duality is only passing thought, nothing more. It does not represent Reality, merely a small, 'thoughtful feature' therein.

The duality is in the opposites of extremes of a god and a devil, or the fight of divas and asuras of these two opposing teams or energies in a black and white existence or all pervasive space. The the center of those two is the true jewel... neither god nor devil but the very gates to the inner and outer itself. So do good fences make good neighbors?

Love unconditional makes good 'neighbors'!
Every religion preaches against following your thoughts, they are not your friends!
Believing them is insanity!
Believing in the 'Reality' of 'duality' is insanity.
Thats when we can commit any and all atrocity because 'they' deserved it, and I 'deserve' the wealth!
Charity, an unconditional Virtue of unconditional Love, means not taking more than your share of anything, ever!
After all, from whom would you be stealing?
Self!

Well the right hand and left hand... Or someone sitting on a throne dominating the bridge between light and darkness.

More unenlightened duality...
And, after reading your interesting and well thought out response, I snip it here as just more of the same 'duality' that you have yet to transcend.
You are getting the theories and philosophies down, perhaps your 'philosophy' will lead you beyond the common duality of... philosophy?
Jnana is the (not recommended in this age) yoga of the philosophers.
As thought degrades, before death, there are fewer and fewer capable of sufficient philosophical thought to reach Enlightenment/unconditional Love; thus Bhakti yoga for this Kaliyuga.

No; let them help themselves, you can impart knowledge it up to them to follow it.

a reply to: namelesss

Sure everyone can; ceasing thought is experience of the void it leads to the feeling of bliss or rapture and guess what everyone does this in many ways... here's a several of them: right before the mind shifts from waking to sleeping, right at the moment of orgasm, when firing a large caliber weapon, sneezing, and between every thought.

Stretch that gap in between thoughts out and you'll grab the tiger by the tail in Chan/Zen

a reply to: Joecroft


Namaste, Joecroft. It's always good, my friend, to hear that you desire to help others find their way to the Kingdom of Heaven.
The simple answer to your question is that you are your brother's keeper. If you are on fire and delight in God's Will, then you must show it to all walks of life. Your passion, love, peace, wisdom, and strength will shine to whomever you speak to. Even the little baby or puppy will be delighted to hear you speak God's Wisdom. God's Love can emanate from your very being by your presence alone if you are truly a son of God.

But waste not the Pearls of God's Wisdom. If a person desires not to hear and does not see, then go on to the next person. Do not argue and do not persuade, for if that person does not want to be within Father's Light, then it is not their time. Their time will come, since our Father's Will for us is vast and has no limit.

Peace be with you.

a reply to: Joecroft

I think the verse points to a heart and mind out of balance that lives in deceit if one lies to oneself then they will lie to another, if one does not lie to others then they may still lie to oneself. Of course that is the back and forth out of balance the scales so when the heart gets weighed by a feather what does one think the feather represents?

The heart and mind should stay as one thing in purity and honesty to move out of animal self preservation to transcend otherwise fearlessness cannot manifest and the world appears out of balance when it is simply tipping the scales to balance the world as one experiences it as a karma formation.

A child's mind is happier not out of ignorance but the unawareness that the adult mind is aware of in it's accumulation... cease paying homage to the accumulation and the mind and heart will weigh the same.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Originally posted by BigBrotherDarkness
I think the verse points to a heart and mind out of balance that lives in deceit if one lies to oneself then they will lie to another, if one does not lie to others then they may still lie to oneself. Of course that is the back and forth out of balance the scales so when the heart gets weighed by a feather what does one think the feather represents?

Hmmm…Which verse were you thinking of…?

I think the feather represents something (try not to laugh) light lol (Not Heavy) it gets weighed against the heart which means the heart must be kept Pure/Light…be free from heavy burdens…

Btw - thanks for your contributions on this thread so far, I think you’ve made more posts on this thread than any other poster…


- JC

a reply to: ctophil

Originally posted by ctophil
Namaste, Joecroft. It's always good, my friend, to hear that you desire to help others find their way to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Greetings and welcome back to ATS…long time no post…

Originally posted by ctophil
The simple answer to your question is that you are your brother's keeper. If you are on fire and delight in God's Will, then you must show it to all walks of life.

Right now, I’m living in the default position of just helping people that Gods puts on my path…but the reason I started this thread question, is that anyone can actively direct their own path down a specific direction, I guess that’s what I've been weighing up in general…

Originally posted by ctophil
Your passion, love, peace, wisdom, and strength will shine to whomever you speak to. Even the little baby or puppy will be delighted to hear you speak God's Wisdom. God's Love can emanate from your very being by your presence alone if you are truly a son of God.

Well, my life isn’t exactly perfect, but it’s certainly not bad either…there’s always room for improvement…

Originally posted by ctophil
But waste not the Pearls of God's Wisdom. If a person desires not to hear and does not see, then go on to the next person. Do not argue and do not persuade, for if that person does not want to be within Father's Light, then it is not their time. Their time will come, since our Father's Will for us is vast and has no limit.

Yes, that is the hardest thing to accept though…but one thing I do know, is that when truth is spoken, seeds are sown. One just never knows when those seeds will take hold, could be quick or it could be many years down the line; Like you said, it’s up to the Fathers will overall…

Peace be with you too…


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Originally posted by BigBrotherDarkness
I think the verse points to a heart and mind out of balance that lives in deceit if one lies to oneself then they will lie to another, if one does not lie to others then they may still lie to oneself. Of course that is the back and forth out of balance the scales so when the heart gets weighed by a feather what does one think the feather represents?

Hmmm…Which verse were you thinking of…?

I think the feather represents something (try not to laugh) light lol (Not Heavy) it gets weighed against the heart which means the heart must be kept Pure/Light…be free from heavy burdens…

Btw - thanks for your contributions on this thread so far, I think you’ve made more posts on this thread than any other poster…


- JC

The one same color as the heart that was cherry picked. Some of them stand on their own; of course to whom it was speaking is a bit more important. I have heard many sermons over the years and of course many verses cherry picked entirely out of context to fit the topic that was being spoken about. Why even use a bible in such a case? Galatians was meant for those living there, etc etc

Out of context is out of context but using them as parables kind of removes all the ones already in it. At least thats my personal opinion.