Tyranny of the Listener

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

There are people who can defend against subliminal advertising, rhetoric, political pandering and sophistry. This is a learned trait, and we should be learning it.

and how would we do that? what are the dimensions of this trait and how would you recommend it be applied?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

yes of course people react negatively to the speaker. My argument is that they are mistaken for doing so.

This is like saying that houses are wrong for falling down in the face of a hurricane. We are a species that differentiates itself from other species by our ability to communicate verbally.

Saying that words shouldn't affect people because words consist of nothing but vocal chord vibrations is the most obtuse argument I have ever heard for free speech.

Obviously words affect people. The Bible, The Constitution, History Books, and many books which influence ways of thinking are all explained with words written down on paper.

Words have the power to cause suffering or Peace, to motivate action, and to change ways of thinking.

In fact, the words of this thread itself is causing people to think of the topic and think of a response.


It's a contradiction to write a thread with about how words don't affect others, while using words to explain why that idea is true , because the very thread is using words to affect people to think in a different way.

a reply to: Jonjonj

That's a poor analogy. Words are not like wind and people are not like houses. Speaking of obtuse arguments, your argument is worse than that.

No one said we do not communicate with words, nor did anyone imply such a thing. But setting straw men so they can be knocked down is the going rate.

Is Plato communicating with you because you picked up his book and started reading? No, Plato does not exist, but I suppose for your sake we can pretend he is communicating to you from beyond the grave.

a reply to: arpgme

Try reading book written in a language you do not understand and tell yourself the words are affecting you. Your understanding of the words, your education, your emotions and your reading is what affects you.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Early childhood education and a process of demystification works wonders for superstitions.

The main argument of this thread is so silly. Shooting someone in the face does not kill them, it's the subsequent mutilation of flesh caused by the bullet striking their face that does it. I don't agree we should start limiting free speech, but why listen to all the nonsense obfuscation in this thread? It is such a semantically based argument and really is quite silly.

originally posted by: daskakik
has no practical value.

There are books written 2,000 years ago pointing out why those people are wrong and instructing them in being better people. I can recommend some if you're interested. How is that not practical?

You seem to have a very low opinion of people. Just stupid animals reacting with no conscious control, incapable of bettering themselves. I bet you imagine you're somehow arguing in their defense.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: arpgme

Try reading book written in a language you do not understand and tell yourself the words are affecting you. Your understanding of the words, your education, your emotions and your reading is what affects you.

Who cares? Of course you are right in a round about way, but it's so irrelevant. Words affect people. Who cares why? It doesn't change that fact. the end result is the same. should we censor speech? Some sorts, but only on very limited occasions.

a reply to: dr1234

Since when is the truth silly? Maybe your mistruths are.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: dr1234

Since when is the truth silly? Maybe your mistruths are.

Well see, I disagree with your premise. You can go ahead blanketedly dismiss this by talking about truths and mistruths without offering anything with any real substance. seems to be a specialty of yours.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: arpgme

Try reading book written in a language you do not understand and tell yourself the words are affecting you. Your understanding of the words, your education, your emotions and your reading is what affects you.

If you don't know the meaning of words, then that's a communication issue. That doesn't mean that words don't affect others.

If words did not affect others then there would be no purpose for language. People write words to change thinking, whether it's to help the person achieve a goal (instruction manuels) or whether it's a thread trying to persuade people that "words don't affect others" (persuasive writing).

originally posted by: Talorc
There are books written 2,000 years ago pointing out why those people are wrong and instructing them in being better people. I can recommend some if you're interested. How is that not practical?

That is not what I was calling impractical.

You seem to have a very low opinion of people. Just stupid animals reacting with no conscious control, incapable of bettering themselves. I bet you imagine you're somehow arguing in their defense.

On the contrary, holding people accountable for what they say would be the opposite.

dp

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Since when is the truth silly? Maybe your mistruths are.

The fact that it is such an insignificant truth makes it look silly.

a reply to: dr1234

You're the one who said "who cares"? Not me. I care greatly about this topic, therefor it is you being dismissive. Must be a specialty of yours.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
Since when is the truth silly? Maybe your mistruths are.

The fact that it is such an insignificant truth makes it look silly.

Then why are you so worried about what I think?

originally posted by: arpgme

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: arpgme

Try reading book written in a language you do not understand and tell yourself the words are affecting you. Your understanding of the words, your education, your emotions and your reading is what affects you.

If you don't know the meaning of words, then that's a communication issue. That doesn't mean that words don't affect others.

If words did not affect others then there would be no purpose for language. People write words to change thinking, whether it's to help the person achieve a goal (instruction manuels) or whether it's a thread trying to persuade people that "words don't affect others" (persuasive writing).

Have my words affected you? How so?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

We're just chit chatting.

The actual nugget of truth that you are talking about is; words don't actually physically affect people.

To me that sounds like "water is wet" or "the sky is blue". All of these are truths but I really do think you are conflating the truth about words with a different issue and using that truth to form a false equivalence.

Words don't affect people = anything a speaker says has no consequences.

originally posted by: daskakik

originally posted by: Bluesma
So you get a lot of ill-structured ideas, a lot of emotional button pushing instead of logic and reason, and people standing firm behind those ill formed ideas because well, now it has been broadcast and now they must stick to what they said to save face. They must convince themselves it was a good idea.

This thread seems to be a good example of that.

I don't think so. The idea is well enough constructed to battle with opposing memes and hold it's own.

I guess I find myself looking at it as a point of view that can be useful and beneficial.
LesMis usually has themes, or points of view, which have the effect of changing your perspective for just a moment. For some, it can be a tilt that really helps them change direction. I suspect he is thinking of those first and foremost.

To stop and think, amongst all the whining and crying and calls for practically burning at the stake for not being PC in word, it's a wake up call.... Knock knock! Hello! Remember- words cannot hurt you.

Of course we can argue the other view, that with the participation of the speaker and the listener, their shared education in meaning and value, words can act as stimulators of emotion. But it is a reminder- you have the possibility, the potential power, to change those buttons. You do not have to be a victim. You can explore different perspectives, values and ethics, that could re-program that initial education and free you from the tyranny of speakers (and make you less of a tyrannical listener).


I think many people want to help those who go around crying that they are being hurt with words often, in a sympathetic concern for their pain.

In my opinion, sometimes, those people don't want to change this.

Some have learned that certain benefits arise when a victim, and whether they are conscious of it or not, have the habit of enjoying those.

Some spend so much time going around trying to be open, loving, nice, that it feels good to get angry for a change! To feel your own power surging through you as you say "F----- them! They are A-Holes! " Ah... being meek feels good to the mind and ethos, but being powerful feels good to the body.

Try to tell them how they can turn off that anger again, they'll ignore and argue with you that they can't because dammit- it feels good and they don't want to.

But you never know, such dialogue has it's truth and holds certain keys for someone who happens to come across it and be at a point they are ready to get off that merry-go-round of meekness and fury.