The sin against the Holy Ghost?

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: NOTurTypical

So nobody since is allowed to see god because this one guy ate some forbidden fruit?

You can try to convince me of the veracity of that, but to me that part is misinterpreted, too.

What did Jesus say?

How many people had ever seen Father?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: NOTurTypical

So nobody since is allowed to see god because this one guy ate some forbidden fruit?

You can try to convince me of the veracity of that, but to me that part is misinterpreted, too.

What did Jesus say?

How many people had ever seen Father?

Jacob touched God, not only that he prevailed over him in a wrestling match.

Pillar of smoke or fire, that was God too.

Moses. Spoke with God, to his back but he saw him.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

That's true, they are the one exception, because basically, they were responsible for sending Jesus to his death via the Romans, who only did it to satisfy a frenzied Jewish mob. They made a choice, even though they saw the miracles and prophesy being fulfilled in Jesus.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: NOTurTypical

That's true, they are the one exception, because basically, they were responsible for sending Jesus to his death via the Romans, who only did it to satisfy a frenzied Jewish mob. They made a choice, even though they saw the miracles and prophesy being fulfilled in Jesus.

That was the Sadducees, the High Priest.

The Pharisees had nothing to do with it and were ordered by the leader of the Pharisees to not harm the Nazarenes.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
a reply to: NOTurTypical

That's true, they are the one exception, because basically, they were responsible for sending Jesus to his death via the Romans, who only did it to satisfy a frenzied Jewish mob. They made a choice, even though they saw the miracles and prophesy being fulfilled in Jesus.

You are assuming that you know the story of the Pharisees as a whole sect.

You don't. They were not evil.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Nobody could be saved, nobody is perfect. Even after conversion. Example, Peter received the Holy Ghost in John chapter 10, but denied Christ to 3 people the night of Jesus' arrest.

I have one problem with your explanation and that is that the HS (pentacost) had not yet been given .

“Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 31-32)."


Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to lie about the Holy Spirit, to pretend the Spirit is with you when it is not.

All the false prophets are guilty of this sin. They lie and say they are from God when they are not.

Only because it was brought up I thought it would be a good idea to provide a link.

Historical biography of Simon Magus

Available here Simon Magus scholarly bio

Very interesting.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

What did Jesus say?

You switched from the Torah to Jesus sayings, but since you did...

Jesus said he represented the 'new' message.


I didn't hold much for the 'old' testament anyway.

a reply to: chr0naut

I was trying to work out what you were writing about in your first post too. I finally thought of an example.

Marjoe Gortner
Hugh Marjoe Ross Gortner (generally known as Marjoe Gortner; born January 14, 1944 in Long Beach, California) is a controversial former evangelist preacher and actor. He first gained public attention during the late 1940s when his parents arranged for him at age four to be ordained as a preacher, due to his extraordinary speaking ability; he was the youngest known in that position. As a young man, he preached on the revival circuit and brought celebrity to the revival movement.[1]

He became a celebrity during the 1970s when he starred in Marjoe (1972), a behind-the-scenes documentary about the lucrative business of Pentecostal preaching. This won the 1972 Academy Award for Best Documentary Film. This documentary is now noted as one of the most vehement criticisms of Pentecostal preaching.

Some time in early 80s I read a book he wrote, can't seem to find the title. For him, the evangelist, it was all a carnival act to make money. According to him, he never believed any of it. If I remember correctly, his motivation for writing the book was he felt sorry for teenagers whose parents were burning their Rock and Roll albums, including having the kids throw the LPs into the fire with their own hands while praying for forgiveness and the casting out of the evil rock and roll demons.

But surely knowing that the gift is free, that the Spirit grants a power beyond anything and that there is love and acceptance in God and in fellowship, to remain in a position of apostasy requires a hardness and psychopathy that would never allow them to be repentant.

Apostasy, turning away, is the subject matter covered in Hebrews chapter 3, which was also included in the OP, I believe.

6:4For concerning those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God for themselves again, and put him to open shame.

For an example of apostasy I will use a fictional character, Bob, who although he shares characteristics with actual people, he's an amalgam. Now that we know who Bob is, I will quote him directly.

I know why I'm not a Christian.
I was raised in a Christian home. All that I was taught reflected the presupposition that it was all true. The only worldview presented was very narrow.

God created the World 6,000 years ago, and gave man a pure truth. Men rebelled against a clearly, unmistakable visible truth about the creator and made up false gods, which were really Satan and other fallen angels, who also had unmistakable knowledge of the true God but defiantly rebelled.

When I was a teenager, I turned my life over to God because I felt the Spirit call me to Jesus. I became filled with the Holy Spirit. And began to share the good news to my friends. To most of what I said, I got back a blank stare. But that didn't deter me.

I went to college to learn how to effectively share Christ. It was a Christian college of the same denomination that I was raised in, therefore no alternative worldview was presented to me, nothing to challenge the only truth I knew.

From Church History, and comparison of historic creeds and confessions and the various prominent theologians, it struck me that Christianity was way bigger than my tiny worldview, could not be contained or limited to my denomination. I dropped out of college, the one that would have prepared me to preach a narrow world view.

Over the next decade, I continued to see Christianity as bigger and bigger in inclusiveness which resulted in the question "One Christ, One Spirit" yet so many different expressions. What then is the minimum requirement to be a Christian and be one in spirit with all other Christians. (Ecumenical Paradox).

The world grew bigger, the absolute essential core of Christianity grew smaller. The limited worldview I grew up with had exploded like an old wineskin, and in the ruins I wandered crying out like a demoniac. After ten years of this, I just couldn't take it any more. Judaism taught all foreign gods were evil demons. Christianity swallowed that notion wholesale. Greek and Roman culture at the "time of Christ" had a completely different view of demons.

If a god is a demon, and if the genius of man is a demon, and if concepts and ideas are demons, then what's that make the Holy Spirit? I better not say it, because that would be an unmistakable example of the unforgivable sin.

So there's Bob. I don't know about you, but I'm fairly certain that he's not going to be talked back in any time soon.

a reply to: pthena

I had some questions for Bob, but since he's fictional I had to make this up:

So Bob, can you tell me more about Ecumenical Paradox? Did you coin the term yourself?

Probably. Doesn't matter, whether the term exists or not, the paradox is there. Look it up, Google or something.

Okay Bob, all I found was this: does this help?

en.wikipedia.org...

Ecumenical apologetics is "an explanation (defense) of the Christian Faith, in an ecumenical fashion";[1] presenting a defense of the faith while advocating and recognizing "a greater sense of shared spirituality"[2] with those of other faiths.

While neither apologetics nor ecumenism is a new term, "ecumenical apologetics" came into use early in the 21st century in an effort to combine the two, which were previously presumed to be opposing efforts or ideas.[3] Likewise, both apologetics and ecumenism are terms used by people of varying faiths; however, the term is used primarily, if not exclusively, to refer to a form of Christian apologetics.

Yes. The last project that I undertook as a Christian Elder and Sunday School teacher was to teach "The Essentials of Christianity". I felt it was necessary due to having overheard a fellow elder say, "I don't believe Jesus was actually raised from the dead physically."

After trying my hardest to come up with the essentials which would not exclude people of good will. I gave up, couldn't be done. That's the paradox.

Well, thank you Bob. If I think of other questions, I know where to find you.

Since I was already looking things up.

www.etymonline.com...
Online Etymology Dictionary

demon (n.) Look up demon at Dictionary.comc. 1200, from Latin daemon "spirit," from Greek daimon "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide" (see tide (n.)).

Used (with daimonion) in Christian Greek translations and Vulgate for "god of the heathen" and "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Greek word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii:31 has daimones, translated as deofol in Old English, feend or deuil in Middle English. Another Old English word for this was hellcniht, literally "hell-knight."

The original mythological sense is sometimes written daemon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates was a daimonion, a "divine principle or inward oracle." His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise.

The whole Wikipedia article on Demon should be read. Quite literally the Greek means: of divine origin

If we step outside the tiny Judeo-Christian worldview, and realize that there is a whole world outside of it, and consider that in order to demonize people and ideas, the word demon must first be demonized. Then the demonizers pretend that demon always was synonymous with evil.

Dropping the illusion we have: of divine origin, easily understood in the Greco Roman World. sent from the God or god(desses)s, in most cases, the internal genius. Another word that should be looked up.

What happened? The believers of a monotheistic deity destroyed as demonic everything not monotheistic with the Old Testament as its battleplan, tear down and consign to oblivion temples, books, people, ideas, genius, etc etc etc.

a reply to: Wombocracy

Originally posted by Wombocracy
a reply to: Akragon

That was my quote why. But I will try harder.

Right in the beginning.

Chapter 6 the beginning of Truth (the Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth) unto it's completion;..." For authority has been given me through the Ineffable and through the First Mystery of all mysteries to speak with you,...

Study it out.

You know it is a very open to interpretation book. But in my study of this book I have found that the First Mystery is the Holy Spirit and so is the last.

If you want me to dig in any further you got to give me some time. I spend an hour on one page trying to piece this, what I equate to the Christian Zohar, together sometimes. It is even more mysterious than the Zohar and I am determined to master it. Not there yet but I am making progress.

The Zohar expands on the allegorical and metaphorical interpretations of the five Books of Moses. And spiritually speaking they are both all tied together with the Kabbalistic Tree of life. I was looking into the Zohar about a year ago but got side tracked in my study…Some Jewish Sholar is still working on translating them all into English…it’s not complete yet, as far as I’m aware…

Originally posted by Wombocracy
Five helpers, three triple powers. I am not going to deny it is not easy to piece together the meaning. But I enjoy trying.

I believe the 5 helpers has a connection to the 5 trees in paradise, which is possibly the 5 senses, of sight and hearing etc…

The “Triple Powers” though is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Except IMO it’s just 2 forces put together (Father + Son)… This is why, as you rightly stated, that the “Holy Spirit “ is above the Father…this is true when He (The Father) is working along side the Son, as One…

You could say it’s a triple, but it depends on how you view it. For example, if you fuse 2 elements together, you could just say there are still just 2 elements present. But you could also say, that you’ve created a unique individual Third element out of the two.

Once you begin to understand what the Holy Spirit is, the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit becomes self evident. Both understandings go hand and hand with each other…IMO


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Good stuff.

I believe that there are 3 triple powers too. So 3,6,9 must be relevant somehow.

I also noticed that the First, Last, Fourth and Twentieth Mystery are the same. I believe this is the Holy Spirit, Truth.

But there has to be more to that last riddle.

I like little IAO.

a reply to: Joecroft

Soncino has a complete English Zohar, 5 volumes.

Stay away from any Berg, Kabbalah center products I would recommend.

I read Beresh ith to Lekh Lekha in English, and I read it now and again.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: intrptr
This is where trust comes in. Believing what the gospel tells you.
Faith is all about trust.

Faith, Hope, Trust, all works of weakness and no conclusion.

No action, no power, only a declaration of your total and utter despicable existence, an acknowledgement of such.

Excuse me if I scoff IN THE FACE of all of your beliefs, and go a totally different direction.....KNOWING.

It will easily become clear, that the GOD you follow, or whatever else it could be called, is flat out afraid of us TRULY seeking the truth.

Well too bad, we are coming and ask it DIRECTLY, why it is such a useless and meaningless creature, with swords in hand, and we are going to win.

a reply to: Wombocracy

Originally posted by Wombocracy
Good stuff.
I believe that there are 3 triple powers too. So 3,6,9 must be relevant somehow.

Well, 3+6=9 so there’s the third element so to speak…

Originally posted by Wombocracy
I also noticed that the First, Last, Fourth and Twentieth Mystery are the same. I believe this is the Holy Spirit, Truth.

But there has to be more to that last riddle.

Not sure which passage or book you’re referring too, I only got so far with the Zohar…


- JC

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Nobody could be saved, nobody is perfect. Even after conversion. Example, Peter received the Holy Ghost in John chapter 10, but denied Christ to 3 people the night of Jesus' arrest.

I have one problem with your explanation and that is that the HS (pentacost) had not yet been given .

Not true. Jesus gave the disciples the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in John chapter 10. What came at Pentecost was the baptism of fire, they were endued with power for their ministry. The baptism of fire is a secondary experience after water baptism. The apostles were refilled again in Acts 4.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

How can we account for Judas Iscariot then ??

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: NOTurTypical

How can we account for Judas Iscariot then ??

Didn't Jesus say Judas was the exception in His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane? I'm not really sure, but read John chapter 10, that's when the disciples received the Holy Spirit. Acts 2 was the baptism of fire.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Well Said Laddy... Well Said!

The Three Are Lights Of The World...
1. The First Born. All Warriors!
There Is No Kingdom Without Them...

2. The Great Work...
The Building Of The City/Country And All It Encompasses...

3. Moræls...
Your Design To Be Noble And Honorable In All Matters...

Next Level:
1. Father/Master... Son/Apprentice... Holy Spirit/Craft(s) = Flag/War....

Last Known Truth Of The Three:
1. Your Oath!
2. Your Freedom(s)!
3. Your Right(s)!

These Lights Are What Is Happening...
Those Who Cling To Life In Search Of A Truth Are Seldom Going To Find It.


Your First Right And Freedom: "To Fight!"
Conclusion: When You Have Won.... You Witness Your Second Freedom And Right: "Spoils Of War!"

From The Second Freedom On Is Your Logic, Rationale, Common Sense... etc...
You Design "Weight(s) & Measure(s)!"
Usury Is The Truest And Only Theology God Has To Offer...
It Is The Breath Of Life Breathed Into A.D.A.M. (cabala)
No Country Is Without Its Usury.... Everything Is To Be Had And Utilised. Even Fairness....

The Wisdom/Sophia That You Seek Is The Not For Faint Hearted Folk.
The Only Thing She Ever Desired Was You! That Is Her Desire... All You Have To Do Is Know You Are The Wisdom. It Makes Her Wise To Keep You...
Do You Serve???? (I, Personally, Do Not! It's Personal!)

They Like Men... Try Not Looking To God For That Privilege To Be Bestowed Upon You.
To Look For Him Is To Not Find Him.

The Bible Is Full Of Treasure.... Yes It Is.
But... You Are The Treasure. A Mortal! When Your Time Is Done... All That You Have To Take With You Is Your Name... Or You Can Leave It Behind To Those Who Will Speak It For A Thousand Years. Your Soul... To God. Your Kingdom... To The Earth! Your Name... To ????!

But... We Were All Born Too Late. Just Go Get Paid....


The Truest Tetragrammaton Is The Name Of Your People... Sacred!
The Truest Spirit Is Their Flag.... The Square.
The Truest Sigil Is The Seal Of Your House... The Circle.

The Fire Is Not Baptism.... It Is Fire! It Will Putrefy You... Meaning: If You're Not Wanting.... All Your Emotions And Fears And Doubts Will Be Cleansed. All That Is Left Is Your Honor.
Be One Of Two After Putrefaction:
1. And It Hurts None... Do As You Will! (Better Person)...
2. Do As You Will.... Is The Whole Law! (Bitter Person)...

A Verse In The Bible Cannot Be Construed As A Whole Paragraph Designed To Instill A Fundamental. Go... And Laugh And Make Merry.... She Likes That.