Is the U.S. Military Subsidizing European Social Porgrams Via NATO?

I read a very interesting post yesterday by Vice Chair of the Libertarian National Committee, Arvin Vohra. In it, he explains his opinion that the U.S. should pull out of NATO altogether, and that the U.S. taxpayer is essentially subsidizing European Democratic Socialism through our military. Because the U.S. is by far the leader in material and financial support in NATO, it allows all the other NATO countries to rely on the U.S. to defend them in the case of attack rather than spending their own money building up their own military. Because of this, these European countries are able to divert funds that otherwise would go to national defense, and spend instead on the sweet social programs that many Americans on the left are so jealous of.

His post is on Facebook, which I'll link to below, but here it is in full as well...I'd like to hear folks thoughts on this since it's a very interesting point that I've not heard before.

British citizens have decided that they will no longer subsidize the big government, socialist policies of other European countries. Can America do the same?

Today, America provides much of the defense for its NATO "allies". Like the one A student in a group of dunces, America does most of the work in providing defense. Americans pay the most money for defense - more than the next several nations combined.

Because our money is used to provide everyone else's defense, other nations can use their citizen's money on other projects. European welfare, government pensions, government healthcare - all of that is subsidized by Americans.

But we can stop. We don't have to provide for the military defense of the whole world. Each nation is responsible for providing its own defense.

If America leaves NATO, that means Americans will no longer have to fund the military defense of NATO nations. Instead of paying for a military ten times as expensive as what we actually need, we could reduce military spending by 90%. We could massively reduce taxes - and actually become safer, since we would no longer be making enemies through military overreach.

As a nice side bonus, leaving NATO would partially defund European socialism. If European nations had to pay for their own defense, they would not have money for big government socialism. We can, right now, shut down the vast majority of our foreign military bases, and bring the troops home. We can stop being involved in other countries' civil wars.

We can become safer as we stop creating enemies abroad. And we can massively lower taxes, spurring economic growth and creating more American jobs.

The Cold War is over. NATO has done its job. Let other countries pay for their own defense. It's time to leave.

In Liberty,
Arvin Vohra
Vice Chair Libertarian National Committee

www.facebook.com...

Likely if they did then the United States would have to remove their European military bases.


So good luck with the Warhawks in charge doing that.

why did you have to put the word socialism in there ?

click factor ?

I think he may have that backwards. The NATO acts mostly is a cover for US wars, giving validation and cassus belli for the actions that our nation takes to secure other nations resources, and to maintain its status as world hegemon. I too agree, that we should leave nato, but obviously for different reasons.

The US needs the most of the money they spend for itself, no one else is as bellicose as the USA. Simple fact!
In addition to that they use the NATO and it´s members as if it is their (gods...) own organisation, their own people. Where NATO troops have to fight?
At places that are of geopolitical interest for the USA, not for sweden or germany, as an example.
Why did the USA then pay till now, if it has no profits of it?

And i bet the majority of people would be happy with less US military around the world, with less US listenings stations, with Less "Schools of the Americas", with less US three letter clubs doing dirty jobs everywhere for the profits of the USA.

As a german i would like to say:
Keep your dollars, and pull your occupying power troops back!
Please don´t forget your A-Bombs, that you stored here, even if germans are not allowed to own a-weapons!

That all would make the world a more peaceful and safer place!

And why do people use facebook, for heavens sake, and think that they are taken seriously???

a reply to: Subsonic

Quite strange. It makes little sense to me, that's why in the end it could turn to be important in a way. Either this guy is confused in all Geo-politic plans, or the things are deeper than we can observe 'em.

What part of Europe is Socialist?

The EU member states with their crippling austerity programmes? I think not.

These words. Do you know what they mean?

originally posted by: syrinx high priest
why did you have to put the word socialism in there ?

click factor ?

Huh? That's the point of Mr. Vohra's post, the word "Socialism' is in the very first sentence of his post that I linked to! What else should I call it? Does the word Socialism offend you in some way?

a reply to: Subsonic

I believe it was a long standing anti communism measure, in the US they could get away with locking potential communists away but in Europe the only way to keep Communist sentiment down was to ensure that most people had decent living standard's and so take the wind out of it's sail's.

It worked very well as well but I am surprised to hear that it may still be going on today.

originally posted by: Ohanka
What part of Europe is Socialist?

The EU member states with their crippling austerity programmes? I think not.

These words. Do you know what they mean?

Don't be snide, respond like an adult and be respectful.

He's referring to European social programs, referred to here in the states as Democratic Socialism. Socialized medicine, education, and government pension. At least that's my take on his meaning.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
Likely if they did then the United States would have to remove their European military bases.


So good luck with the Warhawks in charge doing that.

That's sort of the point. Do we need these bases? Why should European countries want a foreign military on their soil? Now if they are paying us directly for protection...well that's something that would be more reasonable.

originally posted by: Hazardous1408
Likely if they did then the United States would have to remove their European military bases.

So good luck with the Warhawks in charge doing that.

I would say just kill them, but that would be against the T and C, so I won't say that.

originally posted by: DerBeobachter

As a german i would like to say:
Keep your dollars, and pull your occupying power troops back!
Please don´t forget your A-Bombs, that you stored here, even if germans are not allowed to own a-weapons!

That all would make the world a more peaceful and safer place!

And why do people use facebook, for heavens sake, and think that they are taken seriously???

I totally agree. I don't think the U.S. has a right, or an obligation to defend Europe. Europe should be able to stand on their own. Now, if that's difficult due to rampant Nationalism and separatists constantly wanting to break away into ever smaller, and thus weaker countries, like what happened in the Balkans, then maybe that is the catalyst for strengthening a European Union.

Facebook is an easy, fast and cheap way to get ideas out there, must faster and cheaper than having and maintaining your own website. Libertarians like Mr. Vohra like cheap!

a reply to: Subsonic

Because the U.S. is by far the leader in material and financial support in NATO, it allows all the other NATO countries to rely on the U.S. to defend them in the case of attack rather than spending their own money building up their own military.

Totally agree, there would be no need of weapons if US didn't arm NATO countries and literally occupy them with WMD pointed at Moscow and elsewhere.

Without NATO the world could go back to peaceful pursuits and stop preparing for war.

Dissolve the EU, disband NATO, send the US packing...

I've slightly altered the thread title to make it a touch clearer that we're referring to European social programs, not suggesting that all of Europe is Socialist. Apologies for any misunderstanding!

originally posted by: syrinx high priest
why did you have to put the word socialism in there ?

click factor ?

Like I mentioned in another thread, most Americans don't know the difference between a social program and socialism, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they're on.

That said, the US really is shouldering the cost of European defense spending. This is a multi decade long problem and it is very much related to the level of social services spending in NATO member states.

I wrote two threads on the military weakness of Europe and its reliance on the notion that the US would fill the gap:

The Military Weakness of Europe: A Serious Global Security Concern

This was the first thread where I outlined the troubles of Europe and made several predictions on the matter. Many of which are coming true as we speak:

Predictive Military Analysis Coming True in Europe: The Paris Attacks

Back in October of 2014 I wrote about The Military Weakness of Europe: A Serious Global Security Concern. At the time it was met with skepticism, dismissal, and general indignation. In that time we have seen Russia grow more beligerent toward EU nations, sending a large invasion force to the Middle East to aid Assad in Syria, and the Syria "refugee" crisis in the EU that has, in my opinion, led to what we witnessed yesterday in Paris, France. Let me lead off with what I said in the thread linked above:

Coupled with Brexit, this might have some serious implications for future European military readiness, that is to say, what European readiness?

The situation is unfolding quickly, and while the US shoulders the burden the consequences will be staved off. But there will come a time when the US budget crisis rears its ugly head and we end up pulling out of Europe anyway.

In short, yes we allow the Europeans to have their "free" programs because they basically have no military expenses because of us.

originally posted by: Subsonic

originally posted by: syrinx high priest
why did you have to put the word socialism in there ?

click factor ?

Huh? That's the point of Mr. Vohra's post, the word "Socialism' is in the very first sentence of his post that I linked to! What else should I call it? Does the word Socialism offend you in some way?

the word does not offend me at all, the willful ignorance folks use to cause fear by using the word does

a reply to: Subsonic

I second this post of my compatriot:

originally posted by: DerBeobachter
As a german i would like to say:
Keep your dollars, and pull your occupying power troops back!

We don't need your dollars.

We don't need the US violating international law from our territory either.

A #load of those "military expenses" is only needed because of US foreign policy in the first place.

Also, just FYI: Hitler is dead.

originally posted by: ColCurious
a reply to: Subsonic

I second this post of my compatriot:

originally posted by: DerBeobachter
As a german i would like to say:
Keep your dollars, and pull your occupying power troops back!

We don't need your dollars.

We don't need the US violating international law from our territory either.

A #load of those "military expenses" is only needed because of US foreign policy in the first place.

Also, just FYI: Hitler is dead.

And I completely agree with you! I love my German friends, and it's a gorgeous place as is most of Europe. I don't think the U.S. has the right, or more importantly, the responsibility to defend Europe, you should be defending yourselves.

However, it's going to cost you...if the U.S. moves out of Europe completely, which will happen eventually, Europe is going to have to re-arm itself. And that means money...maybe you won't be able to afford free college for everyone anymore, or subsidized health care, or mandatory 6 weeks of vacation, or year long maternity leaves, etc. These are all wonderful things, but they are made possible in part by the U.S. covering the bulk of your defense needs. Just something to keep in mind, and perhaps be thankful for.